Hi there,
I've googled for a cheap pegbar and found a couple places. Richard Williams states in his book that putting a plastic pegbar on a simple round plexiglass disc is more than acceptable to do some animating until you need something more complex/permanent. (In fact he notes there is rarely an occasion where you need the slidebars - they just get in the way).
Does anyone have a good source for the pegbars? Some of the sites I have found seem... amateurish? Was hoping to find something that seemed more reputable. Also, does anyone have a source for a plexiglass/plastic disc? I know I could go to home depot and get some plexi, but cutting it into a circle, etc, would be real pain.
Lastly, about which pegbar - Acme, etc. How do I choose? The project I am going to be embarking on is only a personal short animation, so I'm working pretty much solo. What are the factors involved in choosing? Does it affect the cost of paper, etc?
Thanks
Tom
The pegbar I use at school is a cheap plastic one, and it works just fine. I think it cost me five dollars. And at home i use a light box. This was also a cheap version, but I found that it was giving me migrains. I had to have a second light installed to counteract a flicker from the first light. This is a big deal if you are going to be spending hours at a time on this thing. I would recommend getting two pegs. Have one be portable, for sticking to your scanner or camera and the other tape it down really good to your lightbox. I don't remember which kinda peg I use, it's got an oval circle oval. It's the easiest one to find paper for that pre-punched. Having the paper pre-punched is expensive, but the punches for animation paper are painfully expensive, so you just have to eat the cost of buying pre punched paper. By expensive I mean expensive.
Don't do nothing because you can't do everything.
I've researched the equipment so I hear you on the punch cost - they are literally 2k-4k (which is ridiculous, but that's another story). Isn't the acme punch the 3 circles or am I confused?
Why do you need (or do you) different pegbar for backgrounds? (Or did I misunderstand that?)
Seems like punching paper by hand with a single hand punch might be problematic...
Acme has a round center peg and flat pegs on the left and right.
Paper punches are expensive, but I know there are ones available for less than multiple thousands of dollars...
In the U.S., animation drawings are generally pegged at the bottom, and backgrounds are pegged at the top. That's why you'd need two - if you chose to follow that convention. You could peg everything on the same side if you like.
If you go with Acme, spend a little more and get low-profile pegs. They sit flatter on the drawing surface, which makes working around them somewhat easier. They are worth the extra expense, imo.
Ok, so is Acme paper the standard then? It seems like it since Cartoon Colour Co. offers paper that is punched, but Acme punched is the only option.
The top vs. bottom placement of the bar is interesting. Richard Williams comments on it in his book and kind of makes the point that why would you want to draw with the pegbar in your way... yet if you are wanting to flip with your fingers, then its nicer to have it on the bottom.
Possibly you get used to the pegbar being there, I've only animated one 2d piece, and it was 15 years ago and I don't remember if it bothered me.
So it seems like the acme bar is the choice (possibly the low profile one) unless anyone else has another opinion...
I've never owned a animation disk.
I've always used a free-floating plastic peg bar from Cartoon Color.
Take a bit longer working than if the pegs were secured to a disk, but makes clean-up a breeze because you can turn the paper easier.
If the pegs need to be secured, I just tape them to my lightbox with some clear scotch tape.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
yeay scotch tape. Now I want a low profile peg bar too! Using a regular hole punch is worthless, the paper slides around too much and you will never get your drawings to line up again.
Don't do nothing because you can't do everything.
By free-floating you mean...not quite sure I get you. How can you work without the pegbar being secured? (even if it is just taped down)
I was only thinking of the disk for portability. Which pegbar to get is my main concern since that will dictate the paper I use. I figure I will get a lightbox, so I will probably skip the disk. I have a drafting table too, so I can tape it to that as well.
Ok, now I get you about the paper. Makes sense. Someone else suggested standard 8.5 x 11 paper, and a 3-hole punch too. I don't think I want to do that though, I'd like the best registration possible.
I can see how turning the page would make things more flexible while drawing.
That bring up another question - does nobody paint cels anymore? It seems everything is scanned in and colored on the computer which leaves things seeming somewhat cold or flat. I realize it is a lot more work to color cels, but I wonder if anyone still does it.
I was also thinking about using colored pencils instead, but I'm not sure how I would do that by scanning stuff in.
These are the things I'd recomend you get to start with: *never mind. Use the links in my next post.*
Thats pretty bare bones to get you started, and still get good quality in your animation. I actually don't have that Tony White book, I have his first one. If it's anything close to as good as that one, you'll be in good hands. I also put the Col-erase pencils in there. You can use regular pencils but the Col-erase ones are kind of waxy so they don't smudge as easy when your hand rubs over your drawings.
Oh, alittle side note. When you're drawing your rough animation, don't turn your paper around. Leave it straight and draw with your whole arm. When you start turning the paper around you'll tend to plant your wrist on the paper and tighten up. Keep it loose. Turn the paper around when you are doing the clean-up drawings. Thats when things need to get tight.
Oh, one quick way to get your drawings into your computer instead of scaning them. You need a tripod set up, and a digital camera with a remote trigger. Set your light box where it won't move. Aim the camera at it and start shooting. When you're done, bring the images into your computer buy USB or the card reader. Then import them as a sequence into a program like Flash to test your animation.
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
Thanks for all the tips guys, it's helpful. Ape the cart was empty, what you added would only show up on your computer in your browser session. You could just make a list if you want, but you don't have to if you don't feel like doing it all over :)
I had thought about a tripod/camera setup. I could also bring the image sequence into QuickTime pro too and make a quick pencil test.
Considering I haven't even made my character sheets yet, I've got some time to figure this out :)
Doh, didn't think about that. It was late :D
http://www.cartooncolour.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=163
http://www.cartooncolour.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=4_21&products_id=54
http://www.cartooncolour.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=6_32&products_id=89
http://www.cartooncolour.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=346
maybe that will work.
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
That works :) - thanks. That looks good to me. One question on the book though - the DVD looks interesting, but what am I going to learn from that book that isn't in Richard Williams toolkit or Shamus Culhane's book?
I think Richard William's book is great, and I use it a bunch. I do think it's more of an advanced book. I think Tony White or Preston Blair's books cover more of the basics of character animation, where Richard kind of glosses over that and goes right to advanced techniques. I just think animation is hard enough for people just starting out, that they don't need to be overwhelmed by way too much info. Animation Mentor uses the same approach, and I think it works very well.
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
I should have mentioned I am not new to animation (although I am new to this forum), so the preston blair books for example, are far too simplistic for me. (In fact I bought one for my daughter who loves animation as well.)
I've been re-reading Richard's book and I just love it. I used it extensively when I did my 3d animation - even though it was 3d the concepts still apply. I had a senior level animation course at Columbia College, so I've been through the basics (and produced a short 12 second hand drawn piece which is simply awful. I wish I would have put more effort into the class.)
At any rate, that was 15 years ago and I've only recently gotten my interest back up in art and animation - say the last two years. So that is why I asked about what is different about the book. If it is only going to be more of an introductory book, I'm much better off in continuing to delve into Richards W.'s book - but let me know what you think. My problem isn't necessarily going to be knowledge of *how* to do certain aspects of animtion - my issue is going to be the execution :)
If you'll forgive me saying so, your statement about not being new to animation doesn't really square with some of the rudimentary questions you've been asking. Add to that your statement about producing a hand-drawn short 15 years ago, and I find it very hard to believe you could do that and not know about things like pegbars, acme registration, field sizes, etc (especially if your class was a "senior level course" as you've stated).
My point here is that it's not necessary to pretend you're something you're not. We may get grumpy on occasion, but you'll find that most people here are willing to offer advice and critique to anyone of any skill level. Just ask sajera, he's asked for and received lots of help and critique with his current project.
Glad you're here, and glad your interest has been re-stoked.
I can understand completely why you would think that. It's not that I didn't know anything about pegbars and whatnot - it's as I said I'm trying to get reaquainted. I've forgotten some things and many things have changed in 15 years, as I am sure you are aware of. I didn't say I never knew these things, I wanted people's opinions.
So yeah, I forgive you.
Hmm. Well, here's a link to the piece itself. I warn you - it's really horrible. I didn't say it was a short film, I said a short piece of film - it's like 12 seconds. But it is all hand drawn and it is all handpainted cels, I assure you - shot on a super 8 camera at Columbia College in 1991. Here's the link.
http://www.pixelmech.com/movies/NoHonor_final_small.mov
For something more recently done, here is a 3d piece I did for a mini movie contest I instituted over at the Hash Animation:Master forums. AM is a patch/spline based 3d CG system:
http://www.pixelmech.com/movies/justice.mov
That piece I think you will agree is much better. I also had a junior level course in computer animation there in 1990 on a Mitsubishi workstation. It was all real primative compared to today's software - basically wireframe models rotating and stuff - but it was cool. Don't have any of that saved though.
If you knew anything about me (which you don't) you'd know that would be the last thing I would attempt to do. Would you like me to fax you a copy of my B.A. degree in Fine Art? How about a transcript? :)
Seriously, I'm trying to do any such thing. If I could provide a word of caution myself - be careful about what you assume about people based on a couple statements/questions they have asked on the internet. Reading such things hardly gives you much insight into who that person really is unless you know the motivation and history behind such statements.
I could see if you had read 50-100 threads of mine. But you've read 2 threads with a few questions in them.
Honestly - this is the second time you've gotten a bit "grumpy" with me. Earlier you accused me of not exploring the link you pasted, which I in fact did. Somehow you've gotten a bad impression of me, and I'm not sure why that is.
Thanks for the welcome. This forum does look to be a good resource and I'm hoping you can all help me get back up to speed. I've been an animation fan all my life, since I started off my days as a kid with Bugs Bunny on the Ray Rayner show, watched Speed Racer and as an adult became enamoured with Pixar - so we probably all have lots in common :)
Tom
Cool! I loved Ray. Absolutely remember Cuddly Duddly. Yeah he showed all kinds of cartoons, but Bugs and Road Runner were staples - especially toward the end years. Remember he used to sketch, and he used to give the baseball scores with a hat that was half Cubs and half Sox :) Remember Chalveston the duck?
AbsoLUTEly! :) Hardrock was the coolest thing (I still think it is *really* interesting). I finally got to show it to my 2 girls last year (found it online) and they absolutely loved it. Suzy, yeah and of course I watched Garfield Goose - what Chicagoan didn't? :) When I hear the sound to hardrock, it really takes me back...
Man I loved SR - it was the car. I bought the DVDs and again, my girls have also fallen in love with it. Speaking of the car...
Something I put together in Animation:Master last year for fun.
Pixar - here's what they do right - STORY. The other CG companies, most don't get it. It's not about technology. I do think the animation they do is wonderful and well done. But I also love traditional stuff of course. I just recently got Richard Williams' "Thief and the Cobbler - Recobbled" on DVD - this guy Garrett put it all together close to the way it was meant to be. Very interesting indeed. Some of the animation is really great.
But the story - it's really not that good. It doesn't matter how slick the animation is you have to have a story worth telling. Just ask these CG films that are flopping now - they have no substance.
Anyway, on a tangent - great to hear someone else who enjoyed Ray and Garfield!
Tom
From what I heard the hardrock/suzi films were made in Japan or Korea (not sure which). Here is the wikipedia entry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardrock,_Coco_and_Joe
It was made by Centaur Productions whoever that is. But I always noted the slant on the eyes of Santa. Not sure if that was an Asian bias or that they were trying to make him look 'elvish'.
I think animation is on an upward trend again. I'm interested to see what Disney comes up with on the 2d movie, even though they picked a pretty safe theme. If you've not seen Iron Giant by Brad Bird you really should (2d). CG is just a medium like anything else, just a tool. So not sure why some people don't like it but to each his own.
To me, the Incredibles is one of the best movies I have ever seen, animated or otherwise. And when you watch the behind the scenes of how they make the movie, it's really cool.
Tom
I think if you are really serious about animation today, you'll invest less in old technology and more in learning some software that can allow you to do way more than filming with an 8mm camera. Especially if your daughter is interested. Why focus on old technology? It's obvious you have a computer at your disposal.
Scanning is a step up, but just barely. Learning to use the software and really put it through it's paces without the benefit of paper may in the long run give you and your daughter a better return on the dollar.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
Oh, I'm not going to get a 8mm! I'll definitely go toward the software end and scanning. My main concern was the quality of the finished piece. I was concerned about losing the essense of the drawings in translation. I guess that is up to me to use the software correctly when the times comes, to make sure that does not happen.
Like I said, I don't have storyboards or model sheets yet, I've got a LONG way to go yet! (Waiting for the book I'm going to try to adapt to come in the mail.)
Tom
Hey folks,
What do you think of this lightbox?
http://www.lightfootltd.com/product_info.php/cPath/25_45/products_id/121
I like the fact that it is sloped down at the front so you don't have to raise up your hand to get it on the box, which most others seem to require. But I'm not sure if you all think that matters. It's 12f not 10f, but I don't care too much about that.
Ape suggested this one:
http://www.cartooncolour.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=163
Which is 15" deep vs. 12" so it has a bit more drawing surface. They don't indicate what kind of pegbar it is though (I have sent off an email to them - but it looks like an Acme in the enlarged pic, just don't know the field size). On the lightfoot one, the pegbar is routed into the surface, so it probably sits lower but I cannot be sure. The other one looks like it is mounted on top somehow.
Any opinions? It's going to be one or the other, just need to decide. And I have a picture I need to clean up so I want to order it soon! :D
If the space you're going to be working in will accomodate either, get the larger one. You'll never regret having the extra real estate.
It is an acme pegbar. You can use either 12 or 16 on it; the peg holes in the center of the sheet are the same on both; on a 16-field there are additional round pegs further out toward the edges of the paper.
I read the description on the 15" lightbox, and it says the pegs are flush-mounted, so no problem there.
HI Pixelmech,
I would like to share my thoughts with you about you lightbox and pegbar choices here.
Neither of the two models you mentioned here are suitable for animation use in my opinion. You will need a lightbox with a rotating disc and one that has more of an angle. If you spend longs periods of time on a flat lightbox like that, you will be bending down a lot and it can hurt your back and neck. Also, the angle you will see from, when you look down, will not be the view from which the drawings will be shot/ scanned and as a result may look slightly distorted when taken off pegs and looked at face on.
The rotating disc is important because it allows you to move the drawings to the correct angle for you hand rather than the other way round. With the pegbar stuck to a lightbox without a disc, you will be twisting your arms and body in funny angles and that really is no fun! As for not sticking the pegbar to the lightbox- it can only work if you are doing a one off drawing on a flat surface. When you animate, you need BOTH HANDS! You would want to save your left hand (if you're righthanded.) for flipping rather than holding your drawings in place or turning them. You would still need to rotate the disc from time to time but it's much easier. The rotating disc can be just a piece of white plastic with a hole in it for you to put your fingers in to turn it. Make sure it's white rather clear because you really don't want that much bottom light most of the time and it can strain your eyes. In fact, you don't need your bottom light when you are doing rough animation. You can't flip properly if there's a strong light coming through the paper so you end up staring at all five drawings at the same time.
A plastic pegbar is fine but it has a thickness to it so sometimes your drawings don't stay flat on the disc and you can't put too many drawings on it. Unless you buy one of those discs that has the plastic pegbar routed to the surface like you said. In my opinion a plastic pegbar is good enough for your needs right now.
You can work on top or bottom pegs. It's up to you. Most animators use bottom pegs because it's easier to roll your drawings but it doesn't matter. Dick Williams uses toppegs and he's fantastic! He rolls his drawings just the same. Another person that animates on top pegs is your animation guru here-Tony White. In fact, it seems everybody I know who uses top pegs used to work for Dick Williams!
I hope I gave you some info here to add to the helpful advice you have already got from others in this forum and good luck on your film.
-Paul
http://cargocollective.com/paulchunganimation
Thanks for the input Paul, I do appreciate it. I've read Williams comments on the top/bottom thing - it's interesting I am just going through Illusion of Life and Frank and Ollie categorically state that you cannot roll drawings from top pegs :) Too funny, but I guess that is how they felt at the time - they were really opposed to top pegs.
Anyway, agreed for long term animation I will need a disk, and at some point I will get one. For now I need something to start with, not only for animation but to clean up roughs with. And the lightbox itself can be turned on the table on which it sits, so I will not have to put my hand/arm in odd positions if I don't want to. Granted, not as flexible as a disc, but it should work short term.
I'm not sure I get you on the angle of the drawing and the shooting of the drawings. The angle you see on a disc table isn't the same angle you shoot at either (you shoot/scan them in flat, but you don't animate flat..). Maybe you can elaborate on what you mean there, but I don't see how that is a problem.
The pegbar on the lightbox I bought is fixed to the plexiglass so you don't have to hold it, if that is what you meant. I've heard you can use a rubberband to hold down more drawings on a pegbar if you are in a pinch.
I'm hoping I can get going on this project to where I inevitably need the real thing, and then I'll get it :)
Tom
[QUOTE=pixelmech]
I'm not sure I get you on the angle of the drawing and the shooting of the drawings. The angle you see on a disc table isn't the same angle you shoot at either (you shoot/scan them in flat, but you don't animate flat..). Maybe you can elaborate on what you mean there, but I don't see how that is a problem.
Hi Tom,
Sorry, I didn't explain it as best as I could. This particular part was about the angle of the lightbox, not whether your are using a rotating disc.
If the lightbox is too flat and you want to look at your drawing face on, you need to really crank your neck and bend over. The idea of an angled lightbox is like an artist using an easel rather than putting the canvas flat on the desk. A lot of animators have their lightboxes set at a very steep angle so they can look at the drawings as close to front on as possible. Unfortunately, if the lightbox is at a 90 degree angle the disc will fall out!:) In the old days, flat lightboxes were used by cel painters but animators used angled ones. I set my light table at around a 75 degree angle and it feels just right for me.
It's good that you have done research on this matter! Animators do use rubberbands to hold more drawings down. But it is also so that when they flip the drawings the peg holes don't stretch and lose registration. You can use reinforcers too but they are rather expensive!
Hope you have a good time working on your project.
-Paul
http://cargocollective.com/paulchunganimation
To-may-to, to-mah-to. Short film or short piece of film, if it's hand-done and painted on cels, then you should be familiar with pegging systems. Even if it's been 15 years, you should recognize them when you're re-exposed to them, no?
I'm not saying your background isn't exactly as you represent it; I am saying that you're asking a lot of very odd questions if you've actually played in the animation sandbox before. Just curious...
And the nature of those questions in turn raised questions in my mind. So I should not express them because I haven't read volumes of your postings?
Sorry you felt either of those were grumpy - I didn't intend them that way. During the day I post here during work breaks, and frequently don't have time to polish every word to insure non-offense. I have no bad impression of you; just surprised by your posts that seem to be at odds with each other.
Trust me, if I'm really grumpy with you, you'll know it ;)
Oh, sorry about that Pixelmech, I thought you were new to all this.
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
Not a problem! Like I said, not to say I've mastered all his techniques or anything - far from it. In fact last night I pulled his animation I book out and did some drawings, it was fun.
Oh - I agree about Blair - don't misconstrue what I meant. The guy was a supreme talent and I still pore over his book that I have. I only meant to say I had been through the material already, and felt that Williams stuff had more to offer me at the point I am at. I don't want to buy another book just to have information I already posess in my collection.
Thanks for the tips on the stand, you make good points. I'll probably go the way of the scanner I think, it just seems like the most flexible solution for what I need for now. But like I said, I have a ways to go yet before I need to get any equipment. I can get by with what I have for now, a simple printer/scanner from Canon and a Kodak digital camera should suffice until I get serious.
Tom
You can get animation supplies from Cartoon Colour or Lightfoot. Both places are mail order. They should carry paper, pegbars, disks and desks. I think Acme paper is pretty standard, but I'm not sure. I haven't used paper in waaaaaaaaay to long. I'd suggest buying the cheapest paper you can since you are new, and will be going through a ton of paper. If you want to go the home made route to make an animation disk and wedge, you can do it for around $100 or so, depending on how many times you screw up cutting. :p If there is a Tap Plastics store or similar place by you you can have them cut you a disk, then you can build a wedge out of plywood. It's pretty simple and you can do it in an afternoon.
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."