In response to sajdera, I registered an account about 2 years ago here shortly after the AWN Forums were hacked. I wanted to reserve my name in case there was a time when I would engage this community in conversation. Like reserving a domain name and parking it for future use.
Harvey, I’ll get to a further explanation of the concept of the Independent Economy as soon as I can. Right now I’d like to address some of the personal issues that members here have. I would like to mention what we’re in discussions with someone concerning a possible project of the IE. There’s an artist I know who has written and illustrated an instructional book for an aspect of animation production. I saw the first draft and I think it’s excellent. I plan to use it at my school and will recommend it to anyone looking to improve their skills in this area. The artist suffers from a series of physical ailments that impairs him. He’s slowly losing his eyesight, has a hard time walking, gets no disability, and can’t afford to have the book published. So I’m considering funding a part of the publication of this book through AN’s Independent Economy. That’s one of the ways that I see this kind of system working and why I feel it’s a worthwhile endeavor.
DSB, skinnylizard and Ken, I’ll address your comments soon.
DSB, if you want to continue your account on AN, send a message to us please at the general address of the site (info {{at]] animationnation.com) with your onscreen account name and I’ll personally look into it to see what’s up. Please address the message to my attention and I’ll be sure to check into it.
I hate to even post to this thread, I was enjoying seeing it drop down to oblivion. But if Charles' only conern was clearing his good name, if he has been a member here for so long, he would have known that those two threads weren't all that popular and if he just wanted to delete them he could have just contacted Dan on the private and done it. In a way he's taken over our board and would like to see it run his way. My membership to his board I am sure has been deleted. I wouldn't pay his fees so that I could add a link to my homepage in my sig, or pay for an avatar, funny AWN let's us do both without an independent economy, which is a funny name to begin with. Plus, they were really anti-flash for a long time, not sure where they stand today...don't really care. But after checking on the links Meriwether posted I don't care to go back.
I find it funny that his 16 posts have been posted in this thread, he doesn't choose to contribute only complain.
I agree with Skinny, why is this guy eating up the bandwidth here at AWN, his only interest seems to be a totally self-motivated ego trip and promotion for his own forum. I say go back to your forum, and let those of us that value AWN continue with our practices.
I think this is another name to add to my ignore list.
DSB, skinnylizard and Ken, I’ll address your comments soon.
If you are intending to respond directly to what I've said, spare yourself the effort.
I'm just not interested in your POV.
I've said what I have to say, you've said what you have, as far as I'm concerned that's it. There's nothing more that will change my opinion on the matter--cannot state it any plainer than that.
Feel free to mend fences with whomever else as you see fit.
—
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
I've been a lurker for sometime but as an exAnimationNation member I think there are a few things I should clear up. No, I have to clear them up.
The basic idea for AnimationNation was a good one. A place for industry and independents to post thoughts and work towards a basic change in an industry run by marketing and the bottom line. What it became was something entirely different. In my eyes it became a negative influence and destructive force in terms of the unity of the industry as a whole . And here is how it happened.
Members who joined did not realize that the owners goals were not for improving the state of the industry. In fact , the wish was for nothing but the destruction of the existing corporate entities in favor of purely independent run studio's . Members who worked for established companies were ridiculed for "suckling at the corporate teat". The owner has already admitted that at the time that company managers were called "monkeys". It's nice to hear directly from the owner that they no longer do that because the practice was childish and negative. Sadly too late for those who did not agree with the practice were banished or harassed. Yearly the owner would call for these industry people to " walk out " on the day of the annual AnimationNation meetings as an act of defiance towards the industry , those who didn't or couldn't were harassed. Clearly someone who was independent faced no repercussions from walking out on that day so really this was all done intentionally to cause trouble for those who were not independent.
Meanwhile the owner built a young following at his school and filled their heads full of visions of the "new future ". One that they ran and that would be cleared of corporate deadwood, meaning the artists who presently part of the "system". This is evident in many threads where these children threatened everyone with what would be the "new order ". To me this is the worst part of AnimationNation . Filling young artists heads with a dream that could never be and closing them off to the possibility of being able to work within the industry. Depriving them of the experience they would need if they were ever really going to make a go of being and independent.
The mythical " trolls ". On most boards a troll would be someone who insults people personally but not on AnimationNation. On AnimationNation insults were allowed and in fact encouraged as part of the daily agenda of " fighting the system ". I saw all kinds of people fully verbally assaulted there with no moderation till well after the fact. No, a troll on AN was anyone who disagreed with the owner . Once that was done the owner commonly left a message saying " Why don't' you just leave ". In fact it was common practice for the owner to bring up the persons posting history , support history and wether or not they had joined the Independent Economy with anyone who was not with the program. His program. What was interesting is though the owner claims it was an animation board he was constantly reminding everyone that it was "his " board and people never clued in it was not what it was represented as.
The problem with all this was that once you did decide to leave, they wouldn't remove your name . Kevin Geiger posted on AN saying he had been requesting his name removal for a month and still they wouldn't remove it . This was done to others as well . The word "control freak " comes to mind when I hear about people being badgered into leaving and then not being allowed the decency of just closing their account. The intentional torture of those who disagree by dragging out unregistering . Sound like a normal practice to you ? In the years I was on AN not once did I see a troll being banished though I saw many members who were "not of the body " being banished. All this free reign being given to beloved people like Snakebite who were a part of his school and a close friend. A person who constantly insulted people and several times physically threatened them. It was the clearest example of double standards I have ever seen.
The IE . When the Independent Economy began there was all kinds of promises of how independents would have a place to show their work. To showcase themselves. Surely 300 paying members ( that's $15 x 300 = $4500 a year) would shoulder the extra cost of bandwidth for having a place to have their work up. Tons of ideas were bantered around , all good and constructive. What it turned into was a once a month drawing contest where the winner would get $100 , a T shirt or a subscription to Animation Magazine. The submissions were minimal and that dwindled to nonexistent over the months as people realized it was just a waste of time. I invite anyone who doubts it to just check it out.
Add to this hope destroying events like the "World Premiere" that turned out to be just a bunch of concept drawing from the owners stint on Spiro the Dragon and "Important Announcements " like the owners school was going to move into a new complex and you can pretty much get the idea of how lost the idea got. Lost in the owners vision of himself and the focus turned to pipe dreams. This is all very hard to take I'm sure but it is documented and all there. It is a lesson in how a good idea can go bad.
What was good for a brief glimpse of time was it was a place where animation people met. Where thoughts could be expressed even if minimally but I'm afraid that all that is long gone and while the board staggers on the current state of the industry has left it far behind. No sir, you are not responsible for what Save Disney did. That honor goes to all the thousands of individuals and shareholders who saw where their beloved company had gone and made the choice to express a desire for change. AnimationNation's part was tiny and insignificant. Eisner and his mismanagement was his own undoing.
This was not said with hate or malice towards AnimationNation or it's owner. It is just a statement of fact . Just as many companies promised a utopia that never came so did AnimationNation and that needs to be recognized. It's time is over and it must evolve into something real or perish in the way all good ideas gone bad do.
Meriwether is a troll guys. He was on AN for a couple of years. The only reason he’s on your forums is that he can’t troll on AN anymore even though he kept trying to get back in, so he comes here instead. That’s the only reason the troll is here.
The link to the topic on AN was about the Mohammed cartoons. I have strong personal feelings about people being killed over this kind of thing and wound up offering those strong opinions. The main points I was making were that the violence over this was forbidden by Islam itself as well as Muslim on Muslim violence. I pointed this out from Islamic scriptures and religious decrees. I also made the point that radical Islam was chasing Muslims away from their own religion. I linked to a couple of sites that were anti-Islam to illustrate the point, but I also linked to a couple of other sites that taught what the Islamic faith is about.
Unfortunately, one of our members took it personally and called me a racist because I linked to the anti-Islam sites, conveniently passing over the fact that I also linked to the pro-Islam sites. This guy by the way hosts a popular animation site of his own where he can post his own strong opinions and leaves no opportunity for others to respond since there’s no discussion board. Nice and safe.
I considered him to be a friend and I’ve financially supported his publications, but he can’t distinguish between an objection to an ideology and racism. So because of that, the troll comes here to makes a fuss about it and here I am.
Threads get locked on AN just as they do on any other responsible forum when things have gone too far and the topic falls apart, or when there’s an objection to it from our members which happens quite often. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the topic can’t be discussed. It means that it’s time to get centered and start again with a new thread. I blogged for awhile on the thread, was going to re-open the topic as I stated, then decided to open a new thread to pick it up again, then decided it was best to leave it alone. If someone else wanted to bring the topic back up they were free to do it.
For the record, I apologize for getting people upset about this. Either through what I was saying or for leaving a bad impression by the way I handled the topic. I still feel very strongly about the issue and don’t think that people should be targeted for death because of these cartoons. As for my friend and his accusations of racism on my site, I’m saving my response for the day I see him face to face.
The influence of Charles has brought upon the deletion of entire threads on this board. Wowzers. I don't understand what it is that the AWN community owes to this guy to indulge him in his censor-happy activities. If Charles wants to improve his damaged image, he could have done something other than whine, complain and accuse the AWN board of brewing a conspiracy against his creepy website. Does this guy wear tissue boxes on his feet and run his website from a bunker at Ruby Ridge?
I think it's time for Porky to pop his head out of this thread and announce:
A fellow who owns a site, had issues on trolls, rebuked dissents, deleted accounts, trashed posts and invades another site then followed those guys that he banned and while being apologetic, admonish an entire community for calling him childish names and those who were against him, at the same time try to continue his propaganda and trying to clean his slate, desperately seeking attention, and then and then ... and then.... requested to have the anti-AN threads deleted which shouldn't have happened in the first place-- had he been MORE understanding how forums really work, looks like he brought it all to himself... I mean, whatever, man! Is there even a place in this world where everyone got along fine? Show me a site where everyone had the same mind? where everyone agrees ALL THE TIME? Isn't that where it all stem from? a difference of opinion then, degrade to name calling, insults until one has to give! We all know there are leaders who quell their enemies, silenced their attackers, delete their posts, shun dissents, stuffs like that! But , to go online and actually hunt them down, man - Who does that?
Disagreements happen all the time in the real world besides, what purpose does it serve here anyway! AN and AWN are just two different worlds.
AWN offers a lot of support for artists, pros, students alike, 3D, 2D, Flash, stop-motion, producing, good graphics, had the latest news,events, job postings, cool articles, helpful advice and tips, relaxed forums, cool members, neatly organized, properly managed, very accessible, a very unique site! a smooth and comfortable ride!
AN seems like a community on it's own; Some good stuffs too; there's a fee if you want to add links to your site, avatars, other perks which ain't much like, free t-shirt, mugs, not sure but, mostly stuffs that most people don't need. There are 4 Ironclad Mods (all of whom you don't wanna mess with) and you can't even edit your own posts, (well, some members do complain about that added feature.) Some REAL seasoned pros hangout on the site, though some could be uber egocentric and very unfriendly to newcomers.. not to mention, the group that really suck up to their leader. A lot of depressing threads, lots of bitching and moaning, way too much baggage in one place and that's just PAGE ONE; there's gotta be hundreds multiplied exponentially by ten on the archives. Not surprised if the members are dwindling, who would wanna read all those negativity anyway? So much talk yet, not much visible action except for their usual annual parties, a "CharlesNation" indeed, one voice, hence the way he communicate with former members here on this thread pretty much explains what his motives are and so does his character. He can do what he wants on his own site but, to influence AWN and let things run his way is another matter.
to sum it up;
Awn -- peaceful
AN - lots of baggage
Charles, I don't know you but, please try to learn to accept the truth and this could be the time to just --- "LET IT GO".
I used to post(but mostly lurk) at AnimationNation, and I found it was an excellent group of people, and in general, I really appreciated the variety of posters. It had many seasoned pros and from time to time we were graced by the presence of highly respected industry figures, like Eric Goldberg, Ken Duncan, Sergio Pablos and others.
Unfortunately, as time went on I became all too aware of the sinister elements on the board. I began to feel that the board was over-moderated to the point where you felt extremely constrained with what you could and couldn't say. It seemed certain extreme points of view were tolerated(endorsed even), and certain moderate points of view were stifled. I am glad to learn here that I wasn't the only one who felt Charles' presence breathing down their neck.
Then the so-called "independent economy' was launched, and really what a joke that was. I have no problem if Charles wants to invite donations, or have a user-supported message board, but to pretend that it was to be anything more than that was just foolishness and spin. I also felt it would close the door somewhat for future registrations. To my mind it created a sort of class system. I also felt it was forced on us; we were promised from the start that subscription would be optional, but it didn't surprise me one bit when a few short years later Charles posted that he didn't want unsubscribed members to continue posting.
It's a pity really. I used to love that messageboard. I liked it's independance and non-corporate intimacy and I always appreciated the fact that it was not oversplit into too many forums in the manner that most messageboards have.
When I occaisionally browse the board today it seems it isn't what it once was. There are still some members I have a lot of respect for, but it seems a great many of the more interesting voices have left. In their absense, a sort of consensus of opinions has formed, and as a result, discussions have grown stale.
More lurkers? Are those like floaters?! :o (kidding, darliester).
Seriously, now. Can't it be assumed that anyone, anywhere with the web can read AN, AWN or any other such message board, and not be a part of some phantom conspiracy against one, the other, or whatever; a "lurker," so to speak?
No offense but you need to work a little more on your drawing, Billy. Stop worrying about other people’s damaged image and focus on your own. This kind of negative stuff on a forum ain’t worth it. Just let the topic drop.
The policies that developed on AN over the years are due to the stuff that goes on here plus experimentation.
AWN – good forums.
AN – Industry centric with an obligation to the professional community. It’s not a forum for everyone. Some of you act like you’ve got a collective inferiority complex. Comparing the two and trying to put AN down. You obviously lurk the site. You’re the ones who make AN a topic here. If you want it to let the subject go then just let it go.
I used to post(but mostly lurk) at AnimationNation, and I found it was an excellent group of people, and in general, I really appreciated the variety of posters. It had many seasoned pros and from time to time we were graced by the presence of highly respected industry figures, like Eric Goldberg, Ken Duncan, Sergio Pablos and others.
Unfortunately, as time went on I became all too aware of the sinister elements on the board. I began to feel that the board was over-moderated to the point where you felt extremely constrained with what you could and couldn't say. It seemed certain extreme points of view were tolerated(endorsed even), and certain moderate points of view were stifled. I am glad to learn here that I wasn't the only one who felt Charles' presence breathing down their neck.
Then the so-called "independent economy' was launched, and really what a joke that was. I have no problem if Charles wants to invite donations, or have a user-supported message board, but to pretend that it was to be anything more than that was just foolishness and spin. I also felt it would close the door somewhat for future registrations. To my mind it created a sort of class system. I also felt it was forced on us; we were promised from the start that subscription would be optional, but it didn't surprise me one bit when a few short years later Charles posted that he didn't want unsubscribed members to continue posting.
It's a pity really. I used to love that messageboard. I liked it's independance and non-corporate intimacy and I always appreciated the fact that it was not oversplit into too many forums in the manner that most messageboards have.
When I occaisionally browse the board today it seems it isn't what it once was. There are still some members I have a lot of respect for, but it seems a great many of the more interesting voices have left. In their absense, a sort of consensus of opinions has formed, and as a result, discussions have grown stale.
A-blinkin'-men!
—
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Thanks for the constructive commentary on my artistic skills, Chuck. But anyway, getting back to the topic of you being an intrusive, demanding egomaniac with a comical penchant for playing the victim:
Since Charles is refusing to explain I.E., here's my understandi
Then the so-called "independent economy' was launched, and really what a joke that was. I have no problem if Charles wants to invite donations, or have a user-supported message board, but to pretend that it was to be anything more than that was just foolishness and spin. I also felt it would close the door somewhat for future registrations. To my mind it created a sort of class system.
I was a member of AN for a short time and left for this reason.
Asking for donations is fine. Even ad-support is more honorable than pretending that AN is going to eventually employ subscribers.
That was then, though.
A subscription to Animation Nation is just $15 per year. ... Please note that your subscription will be automatically renewed at the end of your current billing cycle unless you log on to your Paypal account and cancel it shortly before your renewal date.
...
Benefits of AN's Independent Economy membership include:[LIST]
[*]Clearance to link your own web site to AN through your membership profile, through your membership signature or through a signature banner. You can add up to two more web site links to your subscription for an additional $10 each.[/LIST]...[LIST]
[*]That warm, fuzzy feeling one gets when participating in the emergence of an online phenomenon that can affect the course of an entire industry.[/LIST]Your annual subscription fee is non-refundable, but don't let that stop you. AnimationNation.com is an industry centric media outlet and communications center that is growing every day. Our community is vast and unique. Your IE account will pay for itself with the exposure your own site will get as a result of your participation in our forums. Join our revolution through a membership in the Independent Economy and in the growing body of positivity that is AnimationNation.com!
(Why say "web forum" when you can say "industry centric media outlet and communications center"? It sounds so much more important.)
I guess the main reason for joining the I.E. now is to have self-promoting banner ads in your signature. I like to be able to turn off the signatures in my options so I don't have to read through clutter, but I'm assuming that since signature ads are what is supporting AN, that disabling sigs is not an option. And since the main advantage of joining AN is to advertise yourself, doesn't that encourage I.E. members to post pointless and redundant messages in order to make their ads more visible?
By the way, does anyone else find it ironic that Meriwether's threads were deleted because of anti-AN sentiment, while there is about 1000% more anti-AN sentiment in this thread?
_____________________________________
Come one, come all to HarveyHuman.com!
See the fish-headed boy!
See Three Card Monte!
See the Spanish Prisoner!
See the Independent Economy!
More lurkers? Are those like floaters?! :o (kidding, darliester).
Seriously, now. Can't it be assumed that anyone, anywhere with the web can read AN, AWN or any other such message board, and not be a part of some phantom conspiracy against one, the other, or whatever; a "lurker," so to speak?
Lol ! True ! Just the fact you can have ten billion emails makes everyone suspect... hmmmm... even ... even you Sajdera ! HA! Like yeah, the whole paranoid thing may just be the "net effect" . If I hadn't met my family in person I would suspect them all too. I read their emails and think, wow these people are crazy. :)
Focus on form, Billy. Not putting others down in vain. You’ve got an interesting style emerging but if you focus on form it will make your artwork stronger. I like some of the things you’re doing but you need to pay some attention to fundamentals. AN is something that I do on the side by which unfortunately I’m judged harshly by. One of the main things I do is educate and help to develop promising artists and successful careers. If you want to get into an exchange of insults, believe me after 7 years on AN I can handle it. I’d rather put the energy into something positive like seeing your artwork get to the point where you develop a following and break into the industry if that’s your goal. One of the things I like about AWN is that there’s an educators forum here. After this blows over I’d rather participate in that forum as time allows.
Most of you won't remember me. I haven't been posting much here at AWN because I am too busy eith school at Ringling (such a great school by the way!) I came across this thread and I just wanted to throw my two cents in. I am a IEcm (Independent Economy Contributing Member) of the Animation Nation forums and have been for some time now. My experience with Charles and the rest of the people over there has been overwhelmingly positive and really enjoyable. I had my misconceptions at first from hear say on this forum and others that
"The AN people are just a bunch of whining animators that are too busy posting on forums and most of them don't actually animate. Their posts are edited and don't allow free speech that goes against the views of the main moderator Charles and his cronies."
Well that was 3 years ago that I heard that kind of stuff and since then I have personally witnessed that that is not the case at all. The editing of posts is done on a lot of forums I visit and it is common practice to delete messages that are going to cause a bunch of unneeded public bickering that takes up bandwidth and frankly people's more valuable time. There are private messages for people that want to sling insults and point fingers. No amount of editing posts is going to affect anyone's views on life in such a way that it should matter. Keeping things on topic, clean, and progressive is what good moderators do.
Charles and others have shared a lot of very interesting and entertaining information, artwork, and news about all aspects of the animation industry. I have been treated with complete respect and kindness after every post I have made and from the couple of silly contests I have entered in over there (which are really fun). They are very open to noobs asking questions and people that have a genuine love for animation. There is some hierarchy to paying members versus the unpaid memberships, but that is a good thing. Professionals that are serious about having a place to discuss and meet with other professionals are willing and happy to pay the small fee. This helps keep a lot of crap from popping up on the forums.
The website started as "a revolution within the animation community" I think is how it goes and I think it has contributed to changes that we have seen as of late. Getting the word out, peacefully demanding shakeups in leadership, and doing some footwork is a slow, but effective way to bring about change. I watched and cheered on Save Disney and appreciated how much Charles and AN supported the cause. Things don't just happen on their own you know.
The membership sign up process is not elitism in any way. The website needs to be supported to keep it running. There aren't a lot of advertisements over there and I like that. The money has paid out great prizes to members too, I have seen where it has helped fund some little projects that contribute to the animation industry as a community, and there are a lot of neat things that happen over there. It is also just trying to keep the forums a little more contained to people that want to talk animation, and not trollers, spiders, bots, trouble makers and peddlers. I appreciate the screening and whole heartedly support it.
On the flip side I also love AWN forums because this is where I started pursuing my dream to become an animator 5 years ago. Thanks Dan S., Ed G., Larry L., Wade, Scattered ,Danimation , Phacker (always entertaining), and everyone else that makes this a great forum.
I could go on and on, but I have 2 walkcycles to finish this weekend and a final to study for.
So thank you AWN and AN for giving people like me great resources to find and learn animation from people that love this art.
—
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to us." ---Gandalf
Step away from the race card, Quickdraw! That's quite a trigger finger you got there tex!
Mr. Meriwether.. you've been called out several times.. you call Charles a racist yet there is no proof of it. You just change the subject. I'm calling you out on it as well.. I loathe when people call others racists because they cannot argue their point, and they deflect it by calling their opponent a 'racist'.
So.. one last chance.. Which Race did Charles discriminate against?
I'll make it easier for you.. i'll make it a multiple choice question...
Here are the races of the world...
Which one did Charles discriminate against, and where is your proof?
I think why you called him a racist, was because he said something you didn't like about your religion.. what you believe in. And you made into a race issue because you are incapable of arguing, so you tried to deflect it.
Which is more racist, because you are declaring that everyone of that race has the same religious beliefs as you. So.. actually, that makes you're more of a racist than he is. Quit discriminating bucko!!
And from what I gather from your character (which isn't much) ... you are incapable of saying you are wrong no matter what.
Religion isn't race.. if I make fun of your religious beliefs.. (which I do alot by the way) it's attacking your thought process. But saying "he's making fun of my religious beliefs!!" doesn't have the oomph that "racist!" does.
The thing you have to remember about AN though, is that it always had loftier ambitions than to be merely an online forum. It's the only messageboard I know of that started out with a manifesto. And they have annual meetings. So you know, I can respect that they tried to be something more than just a messageboard, and I can respect spreading the message and trying to change the way the industry operates, but I just couldn't see what the 'Independant Economy' had to do with any of that. I can understand that Charles had put a considerable amount of his own money into hosting the board, and I think it's more than fair that he try to recoup some of that, but the way it was put forward struck me as empire-building wrapped in spin. Or maybe it was delusion.
I dunno. I just didn't like it. But maybe it's not such a big sin to have such ambitions that ignore the reality. Ultimately, I imagine the proceeds of the IE don't amount to much more than pocket change. Certainly not enough to fund a revolution. I suppose it's forgivable if he was simply mistaken in what it would accomplish.
In any case, I would have liked to see a more hands-off attitude come into being when the messageboard became more and more subscribed. The bigger disappointment was to see that even when the board is user-supported, Charles still treats it as his own private little kingdom, quelling any sentiments that he doesn't agree with, and promoting views that so many found offensive.
Jeez, I've been wanting to stay out of this. I should just quit looking.
Animators are quirky, obsessive, clique-y, and some other stuff depending on the animator in question. This is not true in every case, but it's evidenced as much by Charles Zembillas' coming here to defend his name as it is by AWN refusing to let this thread die and move on.
If you don't like AN, don't go there! Don't go looking for stuff to make wrong so you can be right (or wronger). Live and let live. I don't know if this thread was started by Charles or someone more common here, but it doesn't matter, really.
While you're busy accusing others of something, step back and think how much it applies to you.
I could relate to some of where Charles was coming from, both because I've seen some of the crap said about him around here and because I've seen myself get pretty into defending my own (not always right) positions in similar fashion, with similar passion (rhyme unintended but accepted). Try teaching 9-10 graders sometime, you'll find out exactly where your buttons are.
Maybe we should give up on pushing each others buttons so much. I don't care if I get kicked out of both forums, but for for the love of Mickey, lets get over ourselves (and each other) and move on.
AWN-ers have put more fuel in this fire than anyone. Everyone thinks they're better than the other guy, or that the other guy thinks he/she is better, but we're all just artists trying to find a way to keep creating. I'd love to find a way to think I'm better than all this noise, but I keep looking because I am a proud member of both forums and I'm willing to accept both as they are.
You won't find a thread like this at AN where you have so many back and forth directly personal things going on. Sure, it gets hot in other topics, and it gets personal, but nothing like this. Maybe Charles would shut it down--and maybe he oughtta. The man ain't perfect, but neither is anyone else.
I think this thread should be locked, closed, or something. It's bringing out the worst in all of us. Put down your slingshots and go back to your treehouse, relax in the shade of the warm day and feel grateful for the fun of the fight. When I was a kid and got in a fight, we usually got over it and got to be friends after. I hope we're not all too mature for that.
You better sit down.. I don't know how to tell you this.. but.. Canada isn't a race. Mexico.. isn't a race. France isn't a race.. America isn't a race... it's place.
Saying Canada is full of Whiney Wussies isn't Racism.. it's Placism.
Call him a placist... if you need to fling names.
Placism, and Placist... I'm first to coin the phrase! Copyright 2006.. Bruise Lee. All rights reserved.
If you don't like AN, don't go there! Don't go looking for stuff to make wrong so you can be right (or wronger). Live and let live.
...
While you're busy accusing others of something, step back and think how much it applies to you.
...
Put down your slingshots and go back to your treehouse, relax in the shade of the warm day ...
Maybe you should take your own advice, Rupert.
If this thread bothers you so much, then don't read it and don't contribute to it.
Don't make this thread seem wrong so that you can feel self-righteous.
Instead of accusing us of [whatever it is you're accusing us of], maybe you should step back, think about how it applies to you, have a tall glass of Countrytime lemonade, and relish that warm, fuzzy feeling.
And if all that advice sounds ridiculous coming from someone else, then you got the message.
I don't know if this thread was started by Charles or someone more common here, but it doesn't matter, really.
Well, you could go back to page 1 of the thread and see that, in fact, it was started by Charles. And it kinda does matter. He's welcome to come here and express his opinion, but it's not appropriate for him to come here and start attacking people who don't share his view of what AN is or isn't (not to mention insulting the site in general), and I think this community's well within it's rights to call him on it.
Each of us here is entitled to our own opinion regarding AN, but that seems to be the issue. Charles seems to want us to share his opinion of the site, and is willing to insult and demean anyone who doesn't see it his way. So yeah, it kinda does matter who started it.
Blimey...what a hotbed of discontent. If anyone wants a refreshing change come and visit Skwigly animation forum based in the UK www.biganimation.com/forum and there's a Tuesday night chat room where you can all come and chat about animation and stuff. Anyway I'll leave you to carry on the brickbats...
I miss the occassional chats we used have with Larry on the old board. This *guy* is just trying to promote his dying board. I don't know why we are wasting the space for his little self promotion.
in defence of Eisner he was a huge success for a long time. just stayed past his time.
Also he was head of Disney the company, Disney Animation was just a part of it.
Mr. Meriwether.. you've been called out several times.. you call Charles a racist yet there is no proof of it. You just change the subject. I'm calling you out on it as well.. I loathe when people call others racists because they cannot argue their point, and they deflect it by calling their opponent a 'racist'.
Welcome to the AWN Forums Bruise Lee.
I'm sure Meriwether doesn't need me to defend him, but I re-read his posts, and I don't think he ever called Charles a racist. At least not in this tread. He said that Charles allowed racist comments to remain in an AN tread because it was free speech.
Just clearing things up.
Aloha,
the Ape
—
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
Well, Bruise, if you want to be an apologist for Charles, then why not be an apologist for his treatment of Canadian members on his forums?
None of these people were trolling, none of them had any kind of agenda, they simply posed hard questions on some hard subjects, and they had their accounts closed. Some were even banned for just asking about OTHER Canadian posters to the forums.
Hell, when Charles responded to me here, he didn't apologize, he JUSTIFIED his treatment by saying that Canadians were hyper-sensitive.
This is from someone who made claims in recent years that he and his forums represent the animation industry........the ENTIRE industry.
By his actions he likes to select just who is in that representation, and excluded those he dislikes personally.
So much for the entire industry, right?
He doesn't like being called into question, he despises criticism. He treats the slightest negative comment as a personal attack.
This is the quality sought in a leader?
He was right quick about slinging insults at posters here when he got some heat--probably because he figured very few of his home site contributors would come along to see him in action.
Charles is very good at remaining veiled behind controversy because he knows he's a shoddy leader. He'll shoot his mouth off, and then scurry behind his administration tools on the forums he owns.
The thread that was linked to was locked and then turned into a "personal blog" just so he could get his comments in and get the last word.
Sure, none of this makes him a racist. It brands him as something else.
I'd start with the word "petty".
This isn't an issue of labels either, so you can dispense with that argument from your list. Its about actions followed up by words, the incongruity is alarming.
Its been said all along that incongruity is HIS perogative--his choice in life, and its also our choice to call him on it when he says he's representing an entire group.
Don't blindly take my word for any of this either--think for yourself. I at least have the stones to offer you what Charles wouldn't.
Read the comments here, read the links posted and get to know the people commenting before you start criticising any of us here.
—
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
"Okay, so you (and Katzenberg) saved [I]the Disney corporation and ushered in a new era of animation.
But what have you done for me lately?"[/I]
Ummm , ushered an era out too. Like right out ! But hey , they bought some pretty corporations along the way with all that cartoon money. Who can forget those timeless hits like Newsies , Baby, Dinosaurs and Fantasia 2000 .... when does Snow White 7 come out :)
I'm curious to see if Bruise will be participating in other threads as well, or if he plans on just defending Charles in this one.
I checked Bruise's profile. The additional information part says N/A. Just like Charles' profile. These two are obviously one in the same person so that he can surround merriwether by himself. :rolleyes: (Of course, this is just an assumption on my part. We'll find out the truth soon enough I guess.)
—
Order my book Jesus Needs Help on Amazon or download on Kindle.
What's the problem if a thread drifts back and forth a little? Not to get too harsh on you Harvey, but it's not like so terribly important that we stick with the topic of bashing AN.
These two are obviously one in the same person ... (Of course, this is just an assumption on my part. We'll find out the truth soon enough I guess.)
That was my first thought too. Now I'm more inclined to believe that it's a friend rushing to his aide. Regardless of how we may feel about his behavior here, I think Charles has proven that he's willing to stand up for himself. I don't think he'd resort to the kind of behavior he himself has complained about on AN.
I
The problem with all this was that once you did decide to leave, they wouldn't remove your name . Kevin Geiger posted on AN saying he had been requesting his name removal for a month and still they wouldn't remove it . This was done to others as well . The word "control freak " comes to mind when I hear about people being badgered into leaving and then not being allowed the decency of just closing their account. The intentional torture of those who disagree by dragging out unregistering . Sound like a normal practice to you ? In the years I was on AN not once did I see a troll being banished though I saw many members who were "not of the body " being banished. All this free reign being given to beloved people like Snakebite who were a part of his school and a close friend. A person who constantly insulted people and several times physically threatened them. It was the clearest example of double standards I have ever seen.
I can attest to the truth of this, but of course it's all there in black and white all to see. The favoured inner circle had carte blanche, could basically get away with anything. Others had to tread more carefully. I also felt Kevin Geiger was someone who with the Animation Coop was actually accomplishing something creative and constructive where all Charles & co had was just mere rhetoric and juvenile corporate bashing. Sad to say I initially bought into it, but ultimately found it to be a bleak and self-defeating outlook.
In response to sajdera, I registered an account about 2 years ago here shortly after the AWN Forums were hacked. I wanted to reserve my name in case there was a time when I would engage this community in conversation. Like reserving a domain name and parking it for future use.
Harvey, I’ll get to a further explanation of the concept of the Independent Economy as soon as I can. Right now I’d like to address some of the personal issues that members here have. I would like to mention what we’re in discussions with someone concerning a possible project of the IE. There’s an artist I know who has written and illustrated an instructional book for an aspect of animation production. I saw the first draft and I think it’s excellent. I plan to use it at my school and will recommend it to anyone looking to improve their skills in this area. The artist suffers from a series of physical ailments that impairs him. He’s slowly losing his eyesight, has a hard time walking, gets no disability, and can’t afford to have the book published. So I’m considering funding a part of the publication of this book through AN’s Independent Economy. That’s one of the ways that I see this kind of system working and why I feel it’s a worthwhile endeavor.
DSB, skinnylizard and Ken, I’ll address your comments soon.
DSB, if you want to continue your account on AN, send a message to us please at the general address of the site (info {{at]] animationnation.com) with your onscreen account name and I’ll personally look into it to see what’s up. Please address the message to my attention and I’ll be sure to check into it.
Thanks for telling us you didn't make a pun. It never would have been known had you not informed the board of this.
On that note: ATTENTION EVERYONE!! I did not post any dirty limericks in my last post. Just incase anyone was wondering.
But that's enough from me. And now back to the "Charles Bashing Show". :p
Order my book Jesus Needs Help on Amazon or download on Kindle.
You can also read the first 18 pages of my next book for free at this link: The Hap Hap Happy Happenstance of Fanny Punongtiti
I hate to even post to this thread, I was enjoying seeing it drop down to oblivion. But if Charles' only conern was clearing his good name, if he has been a member here for so long, he would have known that those two threads weren't all that popular and if he just wanted to delete them he could have just contacted Dan on the private and done it. In a way he's taken over our board and would like to see it run his way. My membership to his board I am sure has been deleted. I wouldn't pay his fees so that I could add a link to my homepage in my sig, or pay for an avatar, funny AWN let's us do both without an independent economy, which is a funny name to begin with. Plus, they were really anti-flash for a long time, not sure where they stand today...don't really care. But after checking on the links Meriwether posted I don't care to go back.
I find it funny that his 16 posts have been posted in this thread, he doesn't choose to contribute only complain.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
I agree with Skinny, why is this guy eating up the bandwidth here at AWN, his only interest seems to be a totally self-motivated ego trip and promotion for his own forum. I say go back to your forum, and let those of us that value AWN continue with our practices.
I think this is another name to add to my ignore list.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
If you are intending to respond directly to what I've said, spare yourself the effort.
I'm just not interested in your POV.
I've said what I have to say, you've said what you have, as far as I'm concerned that's it. There's nothing more that will change my opinion on the matter--cannot state it any plainer than that.
Feel free to mend fences with whomever else as you see fit.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
I've been a lurker for sometime but as an exAnimationNation member I think there are a few things I should clear up. No, I have to clear them up.
The basic idea for AnimationNation was a good one. A place for industry and independents to post thoughts and work towards a basic change in an industry run by marketing and the bottom line. What it became was something entirely different. In my eyes it became a negative influence and destructive force in terms of the unity of the industry as a whole . And here is how it happened.
Members who joined did not realize that the owners goals were not for improving the state of the industry. In fact , the wish was for nothing but the destruction of the existing corporate entities in favor of purely independent run studio's . Members who worked for established companies were ridiculed for "suckling at the corporate teat". The owner has already admitted that at the time that company managers were called "monkeys". It's nice to hear directly from the owner that they no longer do that because the practice was childish and negative. Sadly too late for those who did not agree with the practice were banished or harassed. Yearly the owner would call for these industry people to " walk out " on the day of the annual AnimationNation meetings as an act of defiance towards the industry , those who didn't or couldn't were harassed. Clearly someone who was independent faced no repercussions from walking out on that day so really this was all done intentionally to cause trouble for those who were not independent.
Meanwhile the owner built a young following at his school and filled their heads full of visions of the "new future ". One that they ran and that would be cleared of corporate deadwood, meaning the artists who presently part of the "system". This is evident in many threads where these children threatened everyone with what would be the "new order ". To me this is the worst part of AnimationNation . Filling young artists heads with a dream that could never be and closing them off to the possibility of being able to work within the industry. Depriving them of the experience they would need if they were ever really going to make a go of being and independent.
The mythical " trolls ". On most boards a troll would be someone who insults people personally but not on AnimationNation. On AnimationNation insults were allowed and in fact encouraged as part of the daily agenda of " fighting the system ". I saw all kinds of people fully verbally assaulted there with no moderation till well after the fact. No, a troll on AN was anyone who disagreed with the owner . Once that was done the owner commonly left a message saying " Why don't' you just leave ". In fact it was common practice for the owner to bring up the persons posting history , support history and wether or not they had joined the Independent Economy with anyone who was not with the program. His program. What was interesting is though the owner claims it was an animation board he was constantly reminding everyone that it was "his " board and people never clued in it was not what it was represented as.
The problem with all this was that once you did decide to leave, they wouldn't remove your name . Kevin Geiger posted on AN saying he had been requesting his name removal for a month and still they wouldn't remove it . This was done to others as well . The word "control freak " comes to mind when I hear about people being badgered into leaving and then not being allowed the decency of just closing their account. The intentional torture of those who disagree by dragging out unregistering . Sound like a normal practice to you ? In the years I was on AN not once did I see a troll being banished though I saw many members who were "not of the body " being banished. All this free reign being given to beloved people like Snakebite who were a part of his school and a close friend. A person who constantly insulted people and several times physically threatened them. It was the clearest example of double standards I have ever seen.
The IE . When the Independent Economy began there was all kinds of promises of how independents would have a place to show their work. To showcase themselves. Surely 300 paying members ( that's $15 x 300 = $4500 a year) would shoulder the extra cost of bandwidth for having a place to have their work up. Tons of ideas were bantered around , all good and constructive. What it turned into was a once a month drawing contest where the winner would get $100 , a T shirt or a subscription to Animation Magazine. The submissions were minimal and that dwindled to nonexistent over the months as people realized it was just a waste of time. I invite anyone who doubts it to just check it out.
Add to this hope destroying events like the "World Premiere" that turned out to be just a bunch of concept drawing from the owners stint on Spiro the Dragon and "Important Announcements " like the owners school was going to move into a new complex and you can pretty much get the idea of how lost the idea got. Lost in the owners vision of himself and the focus turned to pipe dreams. This is all very hard to take I'm sure but it is documented and all there. It is a lesson in how a good idea can go bad.
What was good for a brief glimpse of time was it was a place where animation people met. Where thoughts could be expressed even if minimally but I'm afraid that all that is long gone and while the board staggers on the current state of the industry has left it far behind. No sir, you are not responsible for what Save Disney did. That honor goes to all the thousands of individuals and shareholders who saw where their beloved company had gone and made the choice to express a desire for change. AnimationNation's part was tiny and insignificant. Eisner and his mismanagement was his own undoing.
This was not said with hate or malice towards AnimationNation or it's owner. It is just a statement of fact . Just as many companies promised a utopia that never came so did AnimationNation and that needs to be recognized. It's time is over and it must evolve into something real or perish in the way all good ideas gone bad do.
Meriwether is a troll guys. He was on AN for a couple of years. The only reason he’s on your forums is that he can’t troll on AN anymore even though he kept trying to get back in, so he comes here instead. That’s the only reason the troll is here.
The link to the topic on AN was about the Mohammed cartoons. I have strong personal feelings about people being killed over this kind of thing and wound up offering those strong opinions. The main points I was making were that the violence over this was forbidden by Islam itself as well as Muslim on Muslim violence. I pointed this out from Islamic scriptures and religious decrees. I also made the point that radical Islam was chasing Muslims away from their own religion. I linked to a couple of sites that were anti-Islam to illustrate the point, but I also linked to a couple of other sites that taught what the Islamic faith is about.
Unfortunately, one of our members took it personally and called me a racist because I linked to the anti-Islam sites, conveniently passing over the fact that I also linked to the pro-Islam sites. This guy by the way hosts a popular animation site of his own where he can post his own strong opinions and leaves no opportunity for others to respond since there’s no discussion board. Nice and safe.
I considered him to be a friend and I’ve financially supported his publications, but he can’t distinguish between an objection to an ideology and racism. So because of that, the troll comes here to makes a fuss about it and here I am.
Threads get locked on AN just as they do on any other responsible forum when things have gone too far and the topic falls apart, or when there’s an objection to it from our members which happens quite often. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the topic can’t be discussed. It means that it’s time to get centered and start again with a new thread. I blogged for awhile on the thread, was going to re-open the topic as I stated, then decided to open a new thread to pick it up again, then decided it was best to leave it alone. If someone else wanted to bring the topic back up they were free to do it.
For the record, I apologize for getting people upset about this. Either through what I was saying or for leaving a bad impression by the way I handled the topic. I still feel very strongly about the issue and don’t think that people should be targeted for death because of these cartoons. As for my friend and his accusations of racism on my site, I’m saving my response for the day I see him face to face.
The influence of Charles has brought upon the deletion of entire threads on this board. Wowzers. I don't understand what it is that the AWN community owes to this guy to indulge him in his censor-happy activities. If Charles wants to improve his damaged image, he could have done something other than whine, complain and accuse the AWN board of brewing a conspiracy against his creepy website. Does this guy wear tissue boxes on his feet and run his website from a bunker at Ruby Ridge?
I think it's time for Porky to pop his head out of this thread and announce:
B-d-b-b-d-b-d-b-THAT'S ALL FOLKS!
A fellow who owns a site, had issues on trolls, rebuked dissents, deleted accounts, trashed posts and invades another site then followed those guys that he banned and while being apologetic, admonish an entire community for calling him childish names and those who were against him, at the same time try to continue his propaganda and trying to clean his slate, desperately seeking attention, and then and then ... and then.... requested to have the anti-AN threads deleted which shouldn't have happened in the first place-- had he been MORE understanding how forums really work, looks like he brought it all to himself... I mean, whatever, man! Is there even a place in this world where everyone got along fine? Show me a site where everyone had the same mind? where everyone agrees ALL THE TIME? Isn't that where it all stem from? a difference of opinion then, degrade to name calling, insults until one has to give! We all know there are leaders who quell their enemies, silenced their attackers, delete their posts, shun dissents, stuffs like that! But , to go online and actually hunt them down, man - Who does that?
Disagreements happen all the time in the real world besides, what purpose does it serve here anyway! AN and AWN are just two different worlds.
AWN offers a lot of support for artists, pros, students alike, 3D, 2D, Flash, stop-motion, producing, good graphics, had the latest news,events, job postings, cool articles, helpful advice and tips, relaxed forums, cool members, neatly organized, properly managed, very accessible, a very unique site! a smooth and comfortable ride!
AN seems like a community on it's own; Some good stuffs too; there's a fee if you want to add links to your site, avatars, other perks which ain't much like, free t-shirt, mugs, not sure but, mostly stuffs that most people don't need. There are 4 Ironclad Mods (all of whom you don't wanna mess with) and you can't even edit your own posts, (well, some members do complain about that added feature.) Some REAL seasoned pros hangout on the site, though some could be uber egocentric and very unfriendly to newcomers.. not to mention, the group that really suck up to their leader. A lot of depressing threads, lots of bitching and moaning, way too much baggage in one place and that's just PAGE ONE; there's gotta be hundreds multiplied exponentially by ten on the archives. Not surprised if the members are dwindling, who would wanna read all those negativity anyway? So much talk yet, not much visible action except for their usual annual parties, a "CharlesNation" indeed, one voice, hence the way he communicate with former members here on this thread pretty much explains what his motives are and so does his character. He can do what he wants on his own site but, to influence AWN and let things run his way is another matter.
to sum it up;
Awn -- peaceful
AN - lots of baggage
Charles, I don't know you but, please try to learn to accept the truth and this could be the time to just --- "LET IT GO".
I used to post(but mostly lurk) at AnimationNation, and I found it was an excellent group of people, and in general, I really appreciated the variety of posters. It had many seasoned pros and from time to time we were graced by the presence of highly respected industry figures, like Eric Goldberg, Ken Duncan, Sergio Pablos and others.
Unfortunately, as time went on I became all too aware of the sinister elements on the board. I began to feel that the board was over-moderated to the point where you felt extremely constrained with what you could and couldn't say. It seemed certain extreme points of view were tolerated(endorsed even), and certain moderate points of view were stifled. I am glad to learn here that I wasn't the only one who felt Charles' presence breathing down their neck.
Then the so-called "independent economy' was launched, and really what a joke that was. I have no problem if Charles wants to invite donations, or have a user-supported message board, but to pretend that it was to be anything more than that was just foolishness and spin. I also felt it would close the door somewhat for future registrations. To my mind it created a sort of class system. I also felt it was forced on us; we were promised from the start that subscription would be optional, but it didn't surprise me one bit when a few short years later Charles posted that he didn't want unsubscribed members to continue posting.
It's a pity really. I used to love that messageboard. I liked it's independance and non-corporate intimacy and I always appreciated the fact that it was not oversplit into too many forums in the manner that most messageboards have.
When I occaisionally browse the board today it seems it isn't what it once was. There are still some members I have a lot of respect for, but it seems a great many of the more interesting voices have left. In their absense, a sort of consensus of opinions has formed, and as a result, discussions have grown stale.
More lurkers? Are those like floaters?! :o (kidding, darliester).
Seriously, now. Can't it be assumed that anyone, anywhere with the web can read AN, AWN or any other such message board, and not be a part of some phantom conspiracy against one, the other, or whatever; a "lurker," so to speak?
No offense but you need to work a little more on your drawing, Billy. Stop worrying about other people’s damaged image and focus on your own. This kind of negative stuff on a forum ain’t worth it. Just let the topic drop.
The policies that developed on AN over the years are due to the stuff that goes on here plus experimentation.
AWN – good forums.
AN – Industry centric with an obligation to the professional community. It’s not a forum for everyone. Some of you act like you’ve got a collective inferiority complex. Comparing the two and trying to put AN down. You obviously lurk the site. You’re the ones who make AN a topic here. If you want it to let the subject go then just let it go.
A-blinkin'-men!
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Thanks for the constructive commentary on my artistic skills, Chuck. But anyway, getting back to the topic of you being an intrusive, demanding egomaniac with a comical penchant for playing the victim:
Let's not.
This is a very odd thread.
I was a member of AN for a short time and left for this reason.
Asking for donations is fine. Even ad-support is more honorable than pretending that AN is going to eventually employ subscribers.
That was then, though.
(Why say "web forum" when you can say "industry centric media outlet and communications center"? It sounds so much more important.)
I guess the main reason for joining the I.E. now is to have self-promoting banner ads in your signature. I like to be able to turn off the signatures in my options so I don't have to read through clutter, but I'm assuming that since signature ads are what is supporting AN, that disabling sigs is not an option. And since the main advantage of joining AN is to advertise yourself, doesn't that encourage I.E. members to post pointless and redundant messages in order to make their ads more visible?
By the way, does anyone else find it ironic that Meriwether's threads were deleted because of anti-AN sentiment, while there is about 1000% more anti-AN sentiment in this thread?
_____________________________________
Come one, come all to HarveyHuman.com!
See the fish-headed boy!
See Three Card Monte!
See the Spanish Prisoner!
See the Independent Economy!
Lol ! True ! Just the fact you can have ten billion emails makes everyone suspect... hmmmm... even ... even you Sajdera ! HA! Like yeah, the whole paranoid thing may just be the "net effect" . If I hadn't met my family in person I would suspect them all too. I read their emails and think, wow these people are crazy. :)
Focus on form, Billy. Not putting others down in vain. You’ve got an interesting style emerging but if you focus on form it will make your artwork stronger. I like some of the things you’re doing but you need to pay some attention to fundamentals. AN is something that I do on the side by which unfortunately I’m judged harshly by. One of the main things I do is educate and help to develop promising artists and successful careers. If you want to get into an exchange of insults, believe me after 7 years on AN I can handle it. I’d rather put the energy into something positive like seeing your artwork get to the point where you develop a following and break into the industry if that’s your goal. One of the things I like about AWN is that there’s an educators forum here. After this blows over I’d rather participate in that forum as time allows.
Post #80 made it a helluva lot odder.........:rolleyes:
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Most of you won't remember me. I haven't been posting much here at AWN because I am too busy eith school at Ringling (such a great school by the way!) I came across this thread and I just wanted to throw my two cents in. I am a IEcm (Independent Economy Contributing Member) of the Animation Nation forums and have been for some time now. My experience with Charles and the rest of the people over there has been overwhelmingly positive and really enjoyable. I had my misconceptions at first from hear say on this forum and others that
"The AN people are just a bunch of whining animators that are too busy posting on forums and most of them don't actually animate. Their posts are edited and don't allow free speech that goes against the views of the main moderator Charles and his cronies."
Well that was 3 years ago that I heard that kind of stuff and since then I have personally witnessed that that is not the case at all. The editing of posts is done on a lot of forums I visit and it is common practice to delete messages that are going to cause a bunch of unneeded public bickering that takes up bandwidth and frankly people's more valuable time. There are private messages for people that want to sling insults and point fingers. No amount of editing posts is going to affect anyone's views on life in such a way that it should matter. Keeping things on topic, clean, and progressive is what good moderators do.
Charles and others have shared a lot of very interesting and entertaining information, artwork, and news about all aspects of the animation industry. I have been treated with complete respect and kindness after every post I have made and from the couple of silly contests I have entered in over there (which are really fun). They are very open to noobs asking questions and people that have a genuine love for animation. There is some hierarchy to paying members versus the unpaid memberships, but that is a good thing. Professionals that are serious about having a place to discuss and meet with other professionals are willing and happy to pay the small fee. This helps keep a lot of crap from popping up on the forums.
The website started as "a revolution within the animation community" I think is how it goes and I think it has contributed to changes that we have seen as of late. Getting the word out, peacefully demanding shakeups in leadership, and doing some footwork is a slow, but effective way to bring about change. I watched and cheered on Save Disney and appreciated how much Charles and AN supported the cause. Things don't just happen on their own you know.
The membership sign up process is not elitism in any way. The website needs to be supported to keep it running. There aren't a lot of advertisements over there and I like that. The money has paid out great prizes to members too, I have seen where it has helped fund some little projects that contribute to the animation industry as a community, and there are a lot of neat things that happen over there. It is also just trying to keep the forums a little more contained to people that want to talk animation, and not trollers, spiders, bots, trouble makers and peddlers. I appreciate the screening and whole heartedly support it.
On the flip side I also love AWN forums because this is where I started pursuing my dream to become an animator 5 years ago. Thanks Dan S., Ed G., Larry L., Wade, Scattered ,Danimation , Phacker (always entertaining), and everyone else that makes this a great forum.
I could go on and on, but I have 2 walkcycles to finish this weekend and a final to study for.
So thank you AWN and AN for giving people like me great resources to find and learn animation from people that love this art.
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to us." ---Gandalf
Step away from the race card, Quickdraw! That's quite a trigger finger you got there tex!
Mr. Meriwether.. you've been called out several times.. you call Charles a racist yet there is no proof of it. You just change the subject. I'm calling you out on it as well.. I loathe when people call others racists because they cannot argue their point, and they deflect it by calling their opponent a 'racist'.
So.. one last chance.. Which Race did Charles discriminate against?
I'll make it easier for you.. i'll make it a multiple choice question...
Here are the races of the world...
Which one did Charles discriminate against, and where is your proof?
I think why you called him a racist, was because he said something you didn't like about your religion.. what you believe in. And you made into a race issue because you are incapable of arguing, so you tried to deflect it.
Which is more racist, because you are declaring that everyone of that race has the same religious beliefs as you. So.. actually, that makes you're more of a racist than he is. Quit discriminating bucko!!
And from what I gather from your character (which isn't much) ... you are incapable of saying you are wrong no matter what.
Religion isn't race.. if I make fun of your religious beliefs.. (which I do alot by the way) it's attacking your thought process. But saying "he's making fun of my religious beliefs!!" doesn't have the oomph that "racist!" does.
:D
The thing you have to remember about AN though, is that it always had loftier ambitions than to be merely an online forum. It's the only messageboard I know of that started out with a manifesto. And they have annual meetings. So you know, I can respect that they tried to be something more than just a messageboard, and I can respect spreading the message and trying to change the way the industry operates, but I just couldn't see what the 'Independant Economy' had to do with any of that. I can understand that Charles had put a considerable amount of his own money into hosting the board, and I think it's more than fair that he try to recoup some of that, but the way it was put forward struck me as empire-building wrapped in spin. Or maybe it was delusion.
I dunno. I just didn't like it. But maybe it's not such a big sin to have such ambitions that ignore the reality. Ultimately, I imagine the proceeds of the IE don't amount to much more than pocket change. Certainly not enough to fund a revolution. I suppose it's forgivable if he was simply mistaken in what it would accomplish.
In any case, I would have liked to see a more hands-off attitude come into being when the messageboard became more and more subscribed. The bigger disappointment was to see that even when the board is user-supported, Charles still treats it as his own private little kingdom, quelling any sentiments that he doesn't agree with, and promoting views that so many found offensive.
Jeez, I've been wanting to stay out of this. I should just quit looking.
Animators are quirky, obsessive, clique-y, and some other stuff depending on the animator in question. This is not true in every case, but it's evidenced as much by Charles Zembillas' coming here to defend his name as it is by AWN refusing to let this thread die and move on.
If you don't like AN, don't go there! Don't go looking for stuff to make wrong so you can be right (or wronger). Live and let live. I don't know if this thread was started by Charles or someone more common here, but it doesn't matter, really.
While you're busy accusing others of something, step back and think how much it applies to you.
I could relate to some of where Charles was coming from, both because I've seen some of the crap said about him around here and because I've seen myself get pretty into defending my own (not always right) positions in similar fashion, with similar passion (rhyme unintended but accepted). Try teaching 9-10 graders sometime, you'll find out exactly where your buttons are.
Maybe we should give up on pushing each others buttons so much. I don't care if I get kicked out of both forums, but for for the love of Mickey, lets get over ourselves (and each other) and move on.
AWN-ers have put more fuel in this fire than anyone. Everyone thinks they're better than the other guy, or that the other guy thinks he/she is better, but we're all just artists trying to find a way to keep creating. I'd love to find a way to think I'm better than all this noise, but I keep looking because I am a proud member of both forums and I'm willing to accept both as they are.
You won't find a thread like this at AN where you have so many back and forth directly personal things going on. Sure, it gets hot in other topics, and it gets personal, but nothing like this. Maybe Charles would shut it down--and maybe he oughtta. The man ain't perfect, but neither is anyone else.
I think this thread should be locked, closed, or something. It's bringing out the worst in all of us. Put down your slingshots and go back to your treehouse, relax in the shade of the warm day and feel grateful for the fun of the fight. When I was a kid and got in a fight, we usually got over it and got to be friends after. I hope we're not all too mature for that.
Cartoon Thunder
There's a little biker in all of us...
It was the Canadian part. Even I thought that was a hit below the belt :P
Shrug. Semantics.
You better sit down.. I don't know how to tell you this.. but.. Canada isn't a race. Mexico.. isn't a race. France isn't a race.. America isn't a race... it's place.
Saying Canada is full of Whiney Wussies isn't Racism.. it's Placism.
Call him a placist... if you need to fling names.
Placism, and Placist... I'm first to coin the phrase! Copyright 2006.. Bruise Lee. All rights reserved.
I think that it is really odd that the person who run Animation Nation would start this thread, what was he trying to do?
nice observation, Mr Pot.
Mr. Kettle
Maybe you should take your own advice, Rupert.
If this thread bothers you so much, then don't read it and don't contribute to it.
Don't make this thread seem wrong so that you can feel self-righteous.
Instead of accusing us of [whatever it is you're accusing us of], maybe you should step back, think about how it applies to you, have a tall glass of Countrytime lemonade, and relish that warm, fuzzy feeling.
And if all that advice sounds ridiculous coming from someone else, then you got the message.
Well, you could go back to page 1 of the thread and see that, in fact, it was started by Charles. And it kinda does matter. He's welcome to come here and express his opinion, but it's not appropriate for him to come here and start attacking people who don't share his view of what AN is or isn't (not to mention insulting the site in general), and I think this community's well within it's rights to call him on it.
Each of us here is entitled to our own opinion regarding AN, but that seems to be the issue. Charles seems to want us to share his opinion of the site, and is willing to insult and demean anyone who doesn't see it his way. So yeah, it kinda does matter who started it.
You must not post there very often then... :D
Blimey...what a hotbed of discontent. If anyone wants a refreshing change come and visit Skwigly animation forum based in the UK www.biganimation.com/forum and there's a Tuesday night chat room where you can all come and chat about animation and stuff. Anyway I'll leave you to carry on the brickbats...
Right right, both of ya got me there. Just sharing what I thought at the time, and I ain't above any of it either.
I'ma go draw now. Keep writing.
Cartoon Thunder
There's a little biker in all of us...
I miss the occassional chats we used have with Larry on the old board. This *guy* is just trying to promote his dying board. I don't know why we are wasting the space for his little self promotion.
*edited*
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
in defence of Eisner he was a huge success for a long time. just stayed past his time.
Also he was head of Disney the company, Disney Animation was just a part of it.
Welcome to the AWN Forums Bruise Lee.
I'm sure Meriwether doesn't need me to defend him, but I re-read his posts, and I don't think he ever called Charles a racist. At least not in this tread. He said that Charles allowed racist comments to remain in an AN tread because it was free speech.
Just clearing things up.
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
Well, Bruise, if you want to be an apologist for Charles, then why not be an apologist for his treatment of Canadian members on his forums?
None of these people were trolling, none of them had any kind of agenda, they simply posed hard questions on some hard subjects, and they had their accounts closed. Some were even banned for just asking about OTHER Canadian posters to the forums.
Hell, when Charles responded to me here, he didn't apologize, he JUSTIFIED his treatment by saying that Canadians were hyper-sensitive.
This is from someone who made claims in recent years that he and his forums represent the animation industry........the ENTIRE industry.
By his actions he likes to select just who is in that representation, and excluded those he dislikes personally.
So much for the entire industry, right?
He doesn't like being called into question, he despises criticism. He treats the slightest negative comment as a personal attack.
This is the quality sought in a leader?
He was right quick about slinging insults at posters here when he got some heat--probably because he figured very few of his home site contributors would come along to see him in action.
Charles is very good at remaining veiled behind controversy because he knows he's a shoddy leader. He'll shoot his mouth off, and then scurry behind his administration tools on the forums he owns.
The thread that was linked to was locked and then turned into a "personal blog" just so he could get his comments in and get the last word.
Sure, none of this makes him a racist. It brands him as something else.
I'd start with the word "petty".
This isn't an issue of labels either, so you can dispense with that argument from your list. Its about actions followed up by words, the incongruity is alarming.
Its been said all along that incongruity is HIS perogative--his choice in life, and its also our choice to call him on it when he says he's representing an entire group.
Don't blindly take my word for any of this either--think for yourself. I at least have the stones to offer you what Charles wouldn't.
Read the comments here, read the links posted and get to know the people commenting before you start criticising any of us here.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
I'm curious to see if Bruise will be participating in other threads as well, or if he plans on just defending Charles in this one.
Is Charles even still posting here?
"Okay, so you (and Katzenberg) saved [I]the Disney corporation and ushered in a new era of animation.
But what have you done for me lately?"[/I]
I'm still waiting for him to defend "independent economy," but he only shows up to fight Meriwether.
Gave me a shudder. Wonder if Charles has even cracked the spine on the 9/11 Commission Report?
great moments in free speech (vol 2):
http://www.animationnation.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001501
notice the comment about allowing (racist) name calling to stand as it's all part of American free speech...hmmmmmmmm
Lance deBoils
Ummm , ushered an era out too. Like right out ! But hey , they bought some pretty corporations along the way with all that cartoon money. Who can forget those timeless hits like Newsies , Baby, Dinosaurs and Fantasia 2000 .... when does Snow White 7 come out :)
business is business.
No, we're still in that era.
However, this if off topic. I don't want to derail this thread.
Go here if you want to continue, or start a new thread:
http://forums.awn.com/showthread.php?p=18969
I checked Bruise's profile. The additional information part says N/A. Just like Charles' profile. These two are obviously one in the same person so that he can surround merriwether by himself. :rolleyes: (Of course, this is just an assumption on my part. We'll find out the truth soon enough I guess.)
Order my book Jesus Needs Help on Amazon or download on Kindle.
You can also read the first 18 pages of my next book for free at this link: The Hap Hap Happy Happenstance of Fanny Punongtiti
...what are you? An Animationnation moderator?
What's the problem if a thread drifts back and forth a little? Not to get too harsh on you Harvey, but it's not like so terribly important that we stick with the topic of bashing AN.
I for one wish they would both go back to AN and let AWN focus on it's own community, and hope and pray they take DDA with them. AN deserves him.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
That was my first thought too. Now I'm more inclined to believe that it's a friend rushing to his aide. Regardless of how we may feel about his behavior here, I think Charles has proven that he's willing to stand up for himself. I don't think he'd resort to the kind of behavior he himself has complained about on AN.
I can attest to the truth of this, but of course it's all there in black and white all to see. The favoured inner circle had carte blanche, could basically get away with anything. Others had to tread more carefully. I also felt Kevin Geiger was someone who with the Animation Coop was actually accomplishing something creative and constructive where all Charles & co had was just mere rhetoric and juvenile corporate bashing. Sad to say I initially bought into it, but ultimately found it to be a bleak and self-defeating outlook.
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