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Looking for Talent

I don't know if this is the right place to put this, but this is my first "Major" post since comeing here. But I have been looking for talent, mostly animators, for a sci-fi weekly series that I'll put on youtube and other places.

As for the animation, it will be a composite of 3D machinma, 2D flash, 3D render, and 2D classical hand-drawn western style of the 80's and 90's. The type used will depend on the requirements of the scene. But I need more than just animators, I also need composers and voice actors.

What's this about? The world of Sonic the Hedgehog. Don't let that deter you if you're not a sonic fan, it's just a preference, not a predjudice. Altough if you were, it would be easier to get you up to speed. Why am I doing this? There have been multiple universes based on the blue guy, but they have been all but swept under the rug by SEGA reciently. And so this project will bring attention to the most negelcted, and dare I say it, abused continuity, yet has the most potential. And I feel it is just a waste, especially since some people worked so hard on it.

So I decided to create this fan-made series. It will cover ten years of the lore from five years before his birth, to five years after. It is a period known as the Great War, where the Mobians (an anthromorphic species) is in a war for survival against the Overlanders (the humans of the future). And the conflict raged across the stars and every type of terrain.

And finally, if you think this is a waste of time, why even bother to reply at all? This is only for people who are actually interested, not trolls. Not that I'm automatically calling you a troll, but I've had some bad experience even from people who claim to be part of my community. Right now I'm very tight on funds, but I'm trying to change that as well. I have, presently, $700 but I cannot use it all. I'll let you know when that changes.

For more information go to: http://great-war-club.deviantart.com

is it even legal for you to be doing this?

Asking people to work (for the equivalent of 'free') on a franchise that's owned by SEGA - nnnope.
As for generating interest in the franchise - SEGA seem to be doing an OK job with Sonic Unleashed, and if not with that, well, even though I don't like Sonic Bioware's Sonic Chronicles doesn't look so bad. I mean - role-playing, Bioware. 'nuff said.

What's this about? The world of Sonic the Hedgehog. Don't let that deter you if you're not a sonic fan, it's just a preference, not a predjudice. Altough if you were, it would be easier to get you up to speed. Why am I doing this? There have been multiple universes based on the blue guy, but they have been all but swept under the rug by SEGA reciently. And so this project will bring attention to the most negelcted, and dare I say it, abused continuity, yet has the most potential. And I feel it is just a waste, especially since some people worked so hard on it.

And finally, if you think this is a waste of time, why even bother to reply at all? This is only for people who are actually interested, not trolls. Not that I'm automatically calling you a troll, but I've had some bad experience even from people who claim to be part of my community. Right now I'm very tight on funds, but I'm trying to change that as well. I have, presently, $700 but I cannot use it all. I'll let you know when that changes.

Its a waste of your time and mine.

You do not own Sonic the Hedgehog, thus you simply do not have the right to produce and broadcast material based on it, nor hire people for pay to produce work for you on it.

Look.....let's spell this out in terms you can understand: Your AWN handle is "LouisTH".
Let's assume that is your "creation". You have plans for it, and ideas to capitalize upon it for profit.

Now I come along and I do not like what you have planned. Arrogantly, I have my own take on YOUR creation, and because I feel that YOU do not have the good sense to manage your own create the way I see it, I decide to pirate/hijack the thing.
I go ahead and make something, that ( in this hypothetical case) stands to gain some attention ( not that your Sonic idea will), and I cut you out of it.
You get nothing from what I do--I may not even respect your characters the way you see fit. My only justification is that I feel that YOU are handling YOUR character wrong.
I might showcase "LouisTH" fucking donkeys for all you know........the point being that I have assumed control illegally over something you created and intend to do things with.
Heck, it might even become successful and you do not even earn a dime from what I make off it.....even your name is cast out......and furthermore, as it grows more successful, I even begin legal action to prevent YOU from even claiming you created it.

Now, how does that make you feel??

Because that is just what you are doing with Sega's creation.
The laws governing copyright and trademarks are in place ( which you are planning to violate), not only to protect Sega but YOU as well, with your own legitimate creations.
You DO NOT legitimately have the right to produce works for broadcast or profit based on the Sonic characters--not unless you come into agreement with Sega.

Want an honest answer??

Grow up.
Grow up and learn a bit about how the business works, what your and their rights are in creating works.
If you are so strident in your views about making Sonic better, then muster up the guts and backbone to actually get work at Sega and work your way into being a decision maker there.
Don't spout that you know better and flaunt the copyright laws for your own ignorant whims.
Frankly, no-one gives a shit what you want to do with Sonic......you are not a player with it, nor are you legally allowed to play with the character.
Offering talent money to work one something you are not authorized to work on.........damn, only a bone-head would jump into a situation where THEY could be legally culpable alongside you for copyright infringement.

Did you consider that???

Seriously, do not waste your time and ours. Drop the fan-boy drivel and create something of your own to eclipse Sonic--if you can. That way its totally yours and you can do with it as you please--something you cannot do with Sonic.

And I promise I will not take it and fuck donkeys with it.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

say i had my own idea, how much $ does anyone want to help in animation, and making backgrounds, etc

i myself am looking for talent (NOT FOR SONIC), private message me if anyone interested

please say how much you want to help in an independent cartoon animation

heh, join the club, flashcartoons. And as far as I'm hearing for animators... you're looking at around $1000 - $4000 per minute of produced animation footage.

Let me add to what Ken is saying a little... for this guy and for anyone else who thinks that way.

Look, if you are interested in using a copyrighted property in a piece of work, you CAN approach them to obtain permission rights. But of course, that means that you're going to have to get their PERMISSION. In my recent experience with my own project, GOOD LUCK even trying to get IN CONTACT with property holders. It's hard, there's sticky red tape, and most times, they feel like you ARE a threat to what they're trying to accomplish with their property, ESPECIALLY being an indie filmmaker. Remember, they're trying to make a PROFIT with their creation, not hand it out like candy at Halloween (which is coming up! man, i gotta figure out a costume again...)

Here's what I did with my project: I looked to the public domain. In the public domain, the copyright restrictions have expired, so you can use those characters however you like. And in a lot of cases, the characters and properties are known... to a degree... so there would already be some popularity there.

Here's a piece of advice: Forget about Sonic. But... The Disney company is going to fight it tooth and nail.... but Mickey Mouse's copyright is due to expire soon. There's only so much about that law that they'll be able to fight. So... sit back and wait patiently... like me! I'm gonna burn up YouTube with that little mouse.... ;)

Follow @chaostoon on Twitter!

Here's a piece of advice: Forget about Sonic. But... The Disney company is going to fight it tooth and nail.... but Mickey Mouse's copyright is due to expire soon. There's only so much about that law that they'll be able to fight. So... sit back and wait patiently... like me! I'm gonna burn up YouTube with that little mouse....

I wouldn't hold your breath about playing with Mickey anytime soon.
Disney has one big advantage in this fight: they are currently and actively using all incarnations (visual and otherwise) of the character as a trademark and property.
As I understand it, the idea behind copyrights ceding into the public domain was that the creator would eventually die and be unable to exercise usage of said creation. Well, a corporation is a long more long-lived than a individual, and under the laws we have, a corporation maintains certain rights that can derive FROM an individual. Properties in a sense, can become the trust of a corporation, ceding from a individual to a group entrusted to control and guide the property.
Corporation were originally conceived as a means to disperse responsibility amongst individuals, but that does not deny those individuals their collective rights with regard to owning properties--in this case Disney owning Mickey, or Sega owning Sonic.
Disney has a current and on-going valid interest in maintain private control, something that public domain in copyright does not fully address.
Disney will very likely find a way to retain private control, and see the current laws amended in a way that not only benefits them, but ultimately you and me as well.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

What may (or may not) expire at some point is the copyright on the earliest Mickey films. The character itself is not entering the public domain - the early films that depict him are.

If they go PD, you will be able to use the footage from those films as you see fit. However, you will not be able to create new works with the character, as the big D will still own the rights to him.

For the record.
1) I never claimed to create Sonic myself. Nor do I plan to create money from this. I just want to show SEGA how far it can really go.
2) There have been lots of fan-films and fan-games created by lots of people. Yet few (if any) have been sued over it. Why? They have been promoting it. If you cannot tell the difference between stealing and promoting, I feel sorry for you.
3) If you feel this is a waste of time, get out. If you cannot offer constructive criticizm, get out. If you cannot behave yourself in a civil mannor, get out or I will report you for harassment. I have no time for those who want to shovel dirt in my face.

For the record.
1) I never claimed to create Sonic myself. Nor do I plan to create money from this. I just want to show SEGA how far it can really go.
2) There have been lots of fan-films and fan-games created by lots of people. Yet few (if any) have been sued over it. Why? They have been promoting it. If you cannot tell the difference between stealing and promoting, I feel sorry for you.
3) If you feel this is a waste of time, get out. If you cannot offer constructive criticizm, get out. If you cannot behave yourself in a civil mannor, get out or I will report you for harassment. I have no time for those who want to shovel dirt in my face.

Several things you've got wrong here - you were offered constructive criticism. That you can't deal with it doesn't make it any less constructive. Your ideas are lacking - severely. Consequentially you receive severe criticism.
Your understanding of how the corporate world works is also lacking and you're lucky to receive any feedback at all. No one's harassing you - you're the one who came in here to push those ludicrous ideas on us. You even PMed me, and I'm sure others. So if you want to play the 'harassment card', hey, two can play at that game.
The answers you get here are about as civil as it gets considering how, let's say, "worldly innocent" your ideas are. You can either realistically evaluate that nonsense you have planned by learning from the response you get our be a bull-headed brat, call everyone who isn't with you your enemy and see where that gets you.

Good luck.

LouisTH, constructive criticism isn't always what we want to hear, thats why it's criticism. Sure Ken is a little blunt, but that doesn't make his information any less accurate.

Sure there are tons of fan films, drawings, and stories floating around for everything from Star Wars to My Little Pony. Do the rightful owners sue all these people? No. Is it still infringement? Yes. Just because you don't get prosecuted doesn't make it right.

What Ken and others are trying to get you to realize is that Sonic is owned by someone. Maybe intellectual properties are too abstract. Lets take your car. You own your car. What if some one walks by it and decides it would look better keyed, spray painted and with all the windows smashed in. This person feels your car now looks better this way. Is this person right to do this? No. This is kind of the same thing.

By protecting Sonic's owners, Ken and the rest of us are protecting you and your property when you sell your own idea and it becomes a huge international, multi-billion dollar success.

Why don't you create your own universe and story of what you want to do for Sonic but with your own characters? Then this will be your very own, and can possibly promote you as an original creator instead of just a fan boy.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

Louis--

I am blunt, I make no apologies for it.
I don't hand out cautionary tales lightly.

You can either be patronized and told you are brilliant and such.......and be led down a very wrong and sorry path, or you can have some (undeserved??)"respect" thrown your way, told you are screwing up and compassionately steered in direction that will ultimately serve you.

But if you insist on being your own man, and ignoring what you have been told, just keep in mind that idiocy has its very own special learning curve--and there's a helluva drop-off at the end.
Its your own path in life, walk it as you will.

Just one last thing to keep in mind, from me to you.
If it was me owning Sonic, and not Sega, and I saw you producing this stuff--here's what I'd do:
Aside from a obligatory cease and desist letter, I'd sue you if anything came of what you were doing..
When I sue you, I'd go after anything and everything you had that was a tangible asset. Artwork for "your" Sonic project, equipment, any moneys you "appear" to have made.
I'd claim any and all of it, including theoretical amounts because sometimes the courts can assign those as penalties.
If you had a house, I'd put a lien on it, for example, and conveniently forget about it. When it comes time for you to sell, or pay property taxes--you'd either have to pay that lien, or end up in hot water.
I'd make you culpable for the court costs and lawyer fees if I win--and I'd drag the thing out so I'd guarantee I'd win, and the final bill could scoot over $100,000--and that'd be a short suit period.
I'd drive you into personal bankruptcy which would affect your credit rating for a period of years.
I'd do what I could to blacklist you as far as the industry goes--any hope you'd have of gaining employment in ( at least) the games industry would be dashed.
I'd systematically malign you and your reputation--a stigma that would/could carry for many years after the fact. Any untoward fact about you would be brought into the open.
And to top it all off, I'd slap you with a gag order, prohibiting you from discussing/venting /ranting about it with anyone.
It would take you years to get out from under the hassle.

That would probably be the beginning of it all--and just transfer "me" back to "Sega" for your own case.

Now, it does not even end there.
Let's say you hire 5 artists to work on this for you. Once the above litigation starts, Sega just doesn't go after you.....they go after those 5 other people too.
The those 5 other people get their own lawyers and ..........whoa nelly, they decide to sue YOU too, possibly for misrepresentation etc.
It'll put some serious "ugh" into ugly for you.

Now, you might think that is heavy-handed and far-fetched--its not.

That is how a legal fight goes--its ugly and brutal.
Its been done to people like yourself, its been done to people I know personally, people I have worked with.
You might think the fan-circles you admire have it completely the other way, but ask around about those that got caught. Ask what happened to them, if you can get them to talk.

You can risk all the above and go with your plan anyways.........but if you get nailed, it can all come tumbling down. If you think a fan-boy's notion about a cartoon character is worth potentially upsetting your life.....hey, jump on in.
If you doubt what I say, heck....... spend some of that $700 you have in hand to consult a lawyer, tell them what you want to do and see what they say. It might be the smartest money you ever spend.

My last advice to you is this: if you really want to do this--do it all yourself, and do it just to share with your friends and no-one else.
Don't tell anyone else about it.
No-one will come after you that way, and you can self-indulge to your heart's content.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Here's a piece of advice: Forget about Sonic. But... The Disney company is going to fight it tooth and nail.... but Mickey Mouse's copyright is due to expire soon. There's only so much about that law that they'll be able to fight. So... sit back and wait patiently... like me! I'm gonna burn up YouTube with that little mouse.... ;)

Actually the copyright on Mickey won't be up for a LOOOOOOONG time. You know that little Direct to DVD called the 3 Musketeers wherein Mickey, Donald and Goofy save the day? In the simplest terms possible, without going into a lot of rights mumbo jumbo, Disney once again secured it's rights to the Mouse and his friends for a good time yet to come.

looks like Diemeiras Dark Angel made a baby

edit : didnt the chap who wrote an unofficial companion to Harry Potter and tried to publish it get sued successfully to Kingdom Come.

looks like Diemeiras Dark Angel made a baby

If its not really him...

As far as Mickey goes... We'll see. :)

But really, LouisTH, I admire your enthusiasm... but focus it towards your own original stuff.

Follow @chaostoon on Twitter!

Again, it DOES have origional stuff in there. PLENTY of origional stuff.

And as for everybody coming after me, here's something else.

Red Vs. Blue. It is a very popular online web series based on the Halo Games. They even sell DVDs on their series. (I have two of them.) Now, were they sued by Microsoft Corporation or Bunjie Studios? No, in fact they were encouraged to continue by them.

Many peope have made fan videos of the Command and Conquer series, yet they were featured by Electronic Arts, rather than being sued by them.

And the list of examples go on and on. Now let me put this in terms YOU can understand.

Say that you created something that didn't do so well. Then I created a project based on it, while still giving YOU the credit for it, and it's a success and makes what you created MORE popular, and you don't have to pay me one cent for it. Would you sue me or would you thank me?

And by the way: http://segadontknow.ytmnd.com/
SEGA tried to sue them for "stealing" their characters, but lost, and came out looking really bad for it.

Say that you created something that didn't do so well. Then I created a project based on it, while still giving YOU the credit for it, and it's a success and makes what you created MORE popular, and you don't have to pay me one cent for it. Would you sue me or would you thank me?

I'd sue you.
For all you were worth and then some, if I could.

Because if you took something I created and did stuff to it/with it without my authorization, you are still infringing upon my rights.
If what you do proves more popular, it makes ME look bad...again, something you are not entitled to do with something I create. You so callously assume that the original creator doesn't have the stuff to improve upon their own creation--that you have to come in and rescue it.

You don't seem to understand that this is about entitlement and right to usage.
Its also about preserving the legal precept of possession being 9/10ths of the law.
Once of a precedent is established that someone else arbitrarily, without authority, comes along and assumes control of a given property, then there is the possibility of that usurper making a claim against that property in its entirety.

Want an example: Superman, and the legal battle between Siegel and Shuster and DC/Warner Bros.
Or the estate of A.A. Milne against Disney over the rights to Winnie the Pooh.

As a creator, if someone wants to benefit from their creations, they can choose to control AND protect them. Its their right. If someone wants to come along and assume control ( of ANY aspect of that property) on a arbitrary basis......then that original creator is entitled to protect their creation to the fullest extent of the law.
Anyone not authorized to assume control is infringing upon those rights--and that is what you are doing.

Copyright infringement is a form of theft--and your represent the actions and threatening intentions of a thief.

That is what you represent Louis...a threat to a fellow creator, and copyright holder. You laud this ignorantly innocent notion about how being a fan entitles you to produce material for consumption from a property you consume, but do not own or have a legal license to work on. You cite flimsy examples to justify your impending theft, and you gloss over the laws to serve your selfish aims.
Heck, I'd bet money you are too gutless to consult a lawyer to find out if what I've said has any truth to it.

You represent a threat to my livelihood Louis, you represent a threat to my craft--and to the livelihoods of any other professional or creator.
You are proposing theft, and IMO should be regarded as a thief--there's just no other way to say it.

And "Louis"--you might want to tidy up some loose strings of yours.

I got this from your own deviantart page:

[B]Unless something is done, the project of mine is in grave danger. Why? Because SEGA is threatening to shut down all fan created works of Sonic the Hedgehog.

Last week, several videos were pulled from youtube of fan based animations of the SatAM series. 4kids entertainment claimed that the animation "was too close to SonicX". Read that back: a SatAM fan-animation was pulled for similarities to SonicX. Comparing SatAM to SonicX is like comparing the Egyptian Pyramids to a pile of dung. SatAM was created under a bunch of independent thinkers who really knew what they were doing and had alot of experience. SonicX was created under the whole "do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that" mentality.

More reciently, Sega threatened to sue ytmnd (You're The Man Now Dog) for "infringing copyright". If they do not remove all Sonic submissions from the site, Sega will try to take over the site theirselves and allow only "whatever does not violate copyright."

Just imagine what would happen if they discover this project. For all I know, they would try to sue me and DeviantArt for all the Sonic art on this site![/B]

http://louis-the-hedgehog.deviantart.com/journal/?offset=5

So you know full well what you are doing is wrong.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Say that you created something that didn't do so well. Then I created a project based on it, while still giving YOU the credit for it, and it's a success and makes what you created MORE popular, and you don't have to pay me one cent for it. Would you sue me or would you thank me?

I'd sue you for all you and your children are worth, then slap a gag order on you so you were unable to talk about it.

But thats besides the point. You are missing the point entirely that most of us are trying to get you to understand. The point is, is that YOU have NO RIGHT to do this to someone else's creation. Even if you think you are making it better.

I some how get the feeling that you will try and do your Sonic project regardless of what we are trying tell you. For the sake of the artist that help you, I hope they don't get sued.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

This thread reminds me of that guy a few years ago who was "recompiling" the Dick Williams film "Thief and the Cobbler". He also saw nothing wrong with what he was doing. He also was violating rights and using material he didn't own.

Heh, yea, DSB.........they come along every once in a while, and they all spin the same tune; they are fans, so they think they know better.

The big bone of contention is not the act of doing what this guy proposes, its broadcasting the material for others to consume and lacking the privilege to do so.

If he's just wanted to do it for himself and a couple of friends, there'd be no beef about it--but putting it on Youtube in defiance of Sega et al, and assuming they know what is best for the characters........that places him squarely in the wrong.
It still a puzzle that they NEVER ask the actual pros ( and there's a few of us in this thread posting) why we don't do stuff like this ourselves--given that some of us also work on this stuff legitimately. The twerps never connect those simple common sense dots...

The nice thing is.......they all disappear into that dark well of washed-up nobodies, never to have their particular nonsense heard from again.

Ah well, that was my "humouring the fools" quota met for this quarter....

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

As for that website you linked to (gotta love the rap song) - well, seeing as your intended work is neither satirical, educational (and no, "showing" SEGA how to handle their franchise "to do them a favour" isn't to be considered 'educational') and borrows from very large parts of an unmistakably copyrighted franchise - you have no legal footing. At all.

Of course all sorts of franchises see all sorts of fan work which, thanks to the internet, get "published" one way or another. Take Harry Potter. But! - even though it was tolerated that some fans compiled an elaborate online dictionary based on canon facts from the various works, an impressive fan labour of love, as soon as plans were formulated to publish the thing in book form without indulging the copyright holders those ardent fans got their asses sued.
Copyright holders are your best pals as long as you buy their merchandise and express your undying admiration for their unaltered material in a non-commercial way. Try to take it from them and they turn into what they really are - business people who won't suffer anybody to benefit from their creativity unless you're contracted by them.

In short, you want to "save" Sonic the Hedgehog - get hired by SEGA.

The big bone of contention is not the act of doing what this guy proposes, its broadcasting the material for others to consume and lacking the privilege to do so.

Exactly - just like the other guy was doing.

Let's try to keep out the name calling, *cough, cough, Ken, cough* ;)

Believe me, I understand where you're coming from Louis. There are quite a few things that I really loved but think could be better. Case in point, the Star Wars prequels. I have so many ideas on how they should've been and my ideas would've made them so much better. Do I act on them, no. Because I don't have the right to. Who knows, maybe in the future, I'll have the chance to work at one of the Lucas studios and I'll have the chance to voice my ideas. So I understand.

Again, if it's such a great idea, create your own universe from it and make it your own. But I know the problem with that is, that it is so much more easy to build upon someone else idea than it is to lay your own ground work.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

There are quite a few things that I really loved but think could be better. Case in point, the Star Wars prequels. I have so many ideas on how they should've been and my ideas would've made them so much better. Do I act on them, no. Because I don't have the right to.

Oh MAN!!! Don't get me started... Star Wars (midi - whatians?), the X-Men movies (where the heck is Gambit???!!!), the Transformers movie (where the heck are the Lamborghini twins!!!)

Follow @chaostoon on Twitter!

Oh MAN!!! Don't get me started... Star Wars (midi - whatians?), the X-Men movies (where the heck is Gambit???!!!), the Transformers movie (where the heck are the Lamborghini twins!!!)

I never quite understood what got Star Wars fans up in arms over midi-chlorians. It's not like they're the Force, just a link to it. I'm just mentioning this because I read just a few days ago that recent research points to microbes in our bodies influencing our behaviour more than our genes are believed to do.
Anyway, I'll be the first to admit that there's a lot "wrong" with the new Star Wars trilogy, even though I find all the fan bickering pointless and blaming all people don't like about it on a vapid character and some concept that seems to anihiliate "the magic" in Star Wars (which can be bought in toy stores as I've come to understand) is a poor way of generalizing it. No offense.

On another note, the topic starter saw fit to publish his opinion on the reaction he received here in his DevianArt journal. Not that I assume anybody gives a crap; I just ran across it by chance.

I never quite understood what got Star Wars fans up in arms over midi-chlorians. It's not like they're the Force, just a link to it.

Four words.

Junky, juicy Jedi-Jizz.

Four horrible words.

And Han has to shoot first.

As for the original poster--yes, I read the comments.
He doesn't get it.
He's just another self-absorbed "entitled" fan, and because of that he's his own worst enemy.
He's been told what the score is by folks that are actually in the biz and he wants to ignore it. Its his time and energy to waste.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)