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not an animator...am I useless?

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not an animator...am I useless?

Hi everyone, I know its kind of a "put self down" comment, but I assure you its a legitimate business question.
I do character design, concepts, character bibles, I do penciling/inking coloring and work in vector (both Flash and Illustrator), have 20+ years in traditional SF/F illustration (now all digital), work in both Photoshop and Painter.
AND I am a painter, comic book artist and cartoonist.

yet.....I can find only limited freelance work.
Of the many inquiries I've sent out since the beginning of the year for just the animation field, only about 5 have replied, giving the usual pat on the head for the art, but then they always ask if I animate.....

I don't. I have animation programs, hoping to get into animation, but I feel I am barking up the wrong tree perhaps? Yes, I'm a crossover from SF/F cover art/RPG games the comics indie field.

As yet I have to "break into" the animation field as background artist, concept and/or character designer. I can't help but feel that because I don't wear the extra hat of animator, that no one is interested. Should I redo my site? Do I appear tooo illustrative? Do I appear I do too much variety in style and technique? :confused:

I'm really feeling kinda mid-life lost on this stuff and can't help but feel the really cool opportunities are passin me by. Any advice is greatly appreciated, especially since I didn't realize I joined this forum 2 years ago!

thanks again

Okay, I'm going to give it to you straight. Please don't think i'm being cruel, I think the greatest injustice a person can do to someone seriously seeking to be a professional is to sugar coat it.

I went to your site and saw you stuff. It's okay. Now, it's not great, but it's okay. It should be enough to keep you working. I really liked your inks for the Jim Lee page. I'm not sure if you did that professionally or if you did it for a portfolio piece. But honestly that was your strongest piece of art. I've worked in the comics industry for 3 years and as an animator for almost 10 now.

You're good enough to get some entry level gigs. Now, that's not to say you'll get anything near Disney or Dreamworks or the like. You have to understand that those jobs are highly competative and you're up against the BEST. Your stuff doesn't hold up to that. I'm not putting you down, in fact, I think it's exciting that you have room to grow.

You really need to keep taking classes, keep painting, learn various styles, techniques, genres and movements. Take life drawing, your character subjects lack in contruction. I equate classes to working out. As an artist if you want to improve and stay 'fit' you need to keep training.

As for being an animator, is that what you want? Animation takes a lot of drive and dedication, it's a very intensive skill. If you're thinking of adopting it just to fill out your tool kit then I'd recommend you don't. If you want to actually become an animator then you definitely need to take some classes and keep training yourself particularly life drawing of both human and animal. I can't press that enough.

The good thing is that art doesn't have an age cap. You can be 80 and work professionally, so time's NOT running out for you. But as it stands now, you're only good enough to get some pro gigs, maybe work on your own stuff, but to really hit the big studios you have to compete with superior talent, do you think you're up to that level yet?

I hope you don't think I'm being mean cuz i'm not. In fact i'm trying to be encouraging in the most forthcoming way possible.

Train train train.
And keep collecting your 'no's'. That means you keep submitting until you get something. dont' give up, ever.

I suggest you go here: http://forums.awn.com/showpost.php?p=37009&postcount=6 Ken really lays it out here, this is great stuff.

Hi Shane--

I've been in the "animation biz" for over 2 decades, and I seldom call myself an animator. I prefer the title of "cartoonist" because I feel that reflects the wider implications of my craft and livelihood.

That said, I have animated, I understand animation, but I have not made money doing specifically animation for almost 15 years now.

Work comes in feasts or famines, I've noticed........it can be steady or inconsistent and subject to many factors. A big factor is the artist's mindset itself. Right now, I'm keen to get some work, but not worried about it.........it will come. Always has, always will.

The key guiding confidence behind that faith is simple: in my case, I'm able to do a variety of things, and work in many different styles.
That there might be the greatest asset to a freelance cartoonist....a broad range.
If you are getting snubbed, its because your range of styles betrays your lack of animation experience. A look over your web site shows illustrative type cartoons, but nothing in a commercial "animation" style.
When I look over your work, I see a lot of technique, a lot of surface gloss ( have no problem with your painting/colouring skills), but I do see a limited variety of styles, and some slightly weak appeal in the cartoony stuff.
To be candid, in my opinion, many of the studios STILL abide by the classic gauge of Disney/Warner Bros styles as a measure of ability. If you can demonstrate ability to produce those kinds of styles effectively, my feeling is you'll probably convince them you have the range they seek.
The other thing that might tip the odds in your favour.......architectural perspective. You show a lot of natural settings in your scenic shots, but seldom any structures. All artists tend to hide what they are weakest at--and I'm getting that sense from the stuff I see of yours.

Since you have 20 years experience illustrating, you clearly know that ability is the only real value in the craft. Those able to do the work, able to demonstrate to an employer they can do the work to the employers needs get the jobs.
Animation is a TOUGH gig to work in. Drawing skills are paramount above all else. The ability to edit out unnecessary lines and such, and create appeal with the lines you keep is a tall order. I can see you have the background and likely discipline to pull this off but, professionally speaking, I don;t see enough of it in your work.

Hope that helps.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

I want to expand a bit more on what Omnigon wrote, and my own previous thoughts for you.

You're good enough to get some entry level gigs. Now, that's not to say you'll get anything near Disney or Dreamworks or the like. You have to understand that those jobs are highly competative and you're up against the BEST. Your stuff doesn't hold up to that. I'm not putting you down, in fact, I think it's exciting that you have room to grow.

This hard thought of Omnigon's encapsulates a lot of my impressions of your work, Shane.
Its good, but not great.
The seeds for it to be great are there, but the execution is not.

I see........as in that post/rant that Omnigon linked to......much the same thing in your work that I have seen many times before. There's undeniable skill there, and some accomplishment.....but not much really stands out.
My old rant is that I have seen enough orc, elves, and sword and fantasy stuff to choke an elephant.......and I see a lot of that with your work too.
That, I feel, is your Achilles Heel.
My advice is to take the genre you clearly love.....and do something with it.
Expand upon the classic sword & sorcery ideas in different unexpected ways.
Think of your own signature iconography.
For example come up with a way of designing a sword that is different from swords we have seen countless times before........but that still say "sword".
A good example of this is the very novel-looking "gun blades" from Final Fantasy or one of those anime properties.
Different, yet a familiar spin on the known.

This advice goes for anyone creating at any level in the biz/craft. One of the big draws ( oh, I love the pun) about the kind of work we do is showing viewers something different, our own personal spin on a idea.
The artist that draws a different functional-looking machine-gun in the hands of a soldier character will get more notice than a artists that draws the same old tired M16-A1.
Take something in the genres you like and make it your own.
Brain-crunch what "elves" really are......and show them beyond the standard AD&D cliche'. Would they be avian, or aquatic? Would they be more akin to humanoid elk? If so, would there be a kind of motif that can come from that?
Dragons are impressive, but how can they be made even MORE impressive?
Armor? Cybernetics? Runes? Feathers?

Then take a lot of other things, cars, houses, robots, girls, hair-dos, kitchen appliances.........etc... and pick something that you can make a signature part of your work and personal style-set.

Like Omnigon, I too think you ( and so many other working artists) are right on the precipice in terms of blowing their styles wide open.
Consider this, if you will.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

One other thing

and thanks Ken for your comments, I think we 'seasoned' guys tend to sound aggresive. Honestly, we're not trying to stomp out people's dreams, but when you're talking about the reality of the job, not the dream of it, then it's better to give you tools to work with.

Bud Hestor once told me; "There are two types of people attracted to this industry, Animators (Animation professionals not just animators) and Animation Enthusiasts."

You really have to ask yourself what you are. Are you attracted to it because you like the cool images. Because some brilliant animator executed something with such mastery and appeal that you're attracted to it? Or is it because you looked at that and said; 'yeah, I should be doing that.'?

I know a great character designer here at Disney who has never seen any of the recent features in the last 15 years. And he's one of the best. He's not a fan of the craft, he IS the craft.

You don't have to be that hard core, but it's a good illustration of the difference.

I want to whole heartedly thank you for your honest replys. Perusing my own work and feeling personal set limitations on my own work is what has lead me to to asking such a blunt question. And I got what I asked for, a blunt answer by industry Pros, its what I wanted to see was a clear reflection of what I couldn't see. Thanks again for the deliniation of where I am at in the field art wise, and now I can set my sites higher and know what to attempt to cut out and where to improve. At times you get so caught up doing everyone elses stuff, you lose site of your own.
Thanks again and its answers like these I feel, can really help a felllow artist out.

I'm glad you took this the right way seriously.

I'll share a story with you. It was about a year back, one of my friends has a cousin whom just graduated from a community college with a BS in art. He really wants to be a Character designer for a top studio like Disney. He really wanted to meet me and review his portfolio. I think this kid was like... 24? maybe. At any rate I visited with him a bit.

The School he attended (See Ken's post of finding the right school for you), was really lackluster. Yes it had an arts program but nothing really to offer for serious career artists let alone a program to foster animation professionals. It was in a small ultra-conservative town and didn't offer a life drawing course. To bring it short a bit, his portfolio left a LOT to be desired. I could see the potential there and I expressed that to him, but told him he needed more work.

He despaired and told me 'this was his last chance', that he wasn't getting any younger and that he wanted to get married and start a family and all that jazz. He basically stated that meeting with me was like his personal ultimatum. If he couldn't get in then he'd join his brother working contruction and give up on art. I told him he was being stupid.

I challenged him and asked him how serious he was, and what was he really willing to sacrifice for it? I told him; Take a year, 1 year, move down to Los Angeles, enroll in a school that offered a good life drawing course, hell, enroll in the Animation Guild drawing courses, they are taught by what I consider two of the best people in the field, Glen Vilppu and Karl Gnass. I told him, find yourself a ratty little apt, get a part time waiting job and throw yourself into your art classes, emerse yourself, let yourself get really good. Then after a year compare your portfolio and see.

The sad thing is, I think he gave up. And the reality is, if that's all it took to break him then he's better off not trying. This industry can be really difficult and tender hearts don't last long.

Not to get all religious or philisophical but it reminds me of a bible story. This Rich Young man came to Jesus and asked what he needed to do to be saved. Jesus rattled off a list of stuff, like go to church take care of the sick etc etc, (i'm way paraphrasing don't flame me). The Young man tells Jesus: I've done all these things since my youth, what more is there? Jesus turns to him and says: Give up all your riches and worldly posessions and follow me. The young man turned away ashamed because he was very rich and didn't have the strength (faith?) to do that. So he missed out.

Now, i'm not a preacher but it illustrates a point. How important is it to you? What are you willing to sacrifice? Time? Money? Time with Family? I've known a lot of people who get divorced because Animation requires a lot out of a person, it's really demanding. In some cases so much that it ruins marriages (ask the EA widows). The world owes you nothing. You have to eek it out. And if someone tells you; well, you're on the right track but your'e not there yet, dont' turn away and give up. But take a personal inventory and ask yourself what it's worth to you.

That's my meandorings, hope it wasn't too 'preachy', but it was a personal experience that I hope you don't emulate. I hope you do take what Ken and I said to heart and up the ante to yourself. Growth through adversity. If Lance Armstrong can win with one nut, imagine what you can do with two.

Finishing community college, what now

I am in the same sitution as the 24 year old that gave up. I'm about to finish my 2D animation degree (in May) at a community college and I know that my work is no where near the level it should be for getting a job in the industry. I'm getting older and older by the second and I'm not even going to tell how much money I have, but lets just say I keep my head to floor in case any shiny objects (change) appears.

Honestly, quitting sounds nice. But the thought of going back to a corporate, sit at my cubicle job, sounds frightening! I just think of that old job vs. how good it feels when after all those long hours of drawing, your little drawings come to life feels...and I think maybe quitting isn't such a good idea.

Being an Austinite, Lance Armstrong is definatly a huge motivation.

Thanks for those encouraging words.

Hey Mint - degrees really don't matter, and your age is a non-factor if your work is good. You know your work needs to improve, and that's the biggest advantage you have. Many people aren't willing to admit that their work just isn't up to snuff.

Make a plan to improve your work, then work the plan. As cliche as that sounds, that's the key to success.

Yea, Mint--don't give up.

Persistence and perseverance are the key in this--and yes talent matters too, but talent can be developed over time.

If you have to, "dig ditches" for a while because you need to pay the bills while you are preparing yourself.

The "all or nothing" approach is a pathway to pain, IMO.......having taken it myself. I was lucky though, in many ways.....because I had family support back then , where as others do not.
It took me years to get to the point where I could support myself working on cartoons, and a few years more after that before my family would acknowledge me as actually having a "real job".
The key to persistence and perseverance is focus. As trying as the day job gets, if you obsessively hone and really drive your focus ( by maintaining your passion) then putting in the couple hours each day after work will pay off.
The person who says they'll "try it for a couple of months and see what happens" is sabotaging themselves from the get-go.

Developing your skills to professional levels will take time.

When you feel you are getting close, get your work out there and get feedback on it. Try out for jobs and see if you get bites.
Keep honing your skills, learn all kinds of things, strive to be the best you can possibly be, rather that just adequate.

But do not give up.

That is the difference that makes the difference......its so tried and true its become a cliche'. The sad fact is that most people find reasons to give up...and then they do just that. If you simply vow to find a way, no matter what, regardless of whatever frustrating obstacle hits, no matter how much time it takes......you'll succeed.
Quitting DOES sound nice.....there's LOTS of great reasons for quitting.
But the successful person is the one that spits in the eye of those reasons and does it in spite all "sensible" thinking.

Good luck.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

I'm in a similar situation: things were looking up by the beginning of this year because I was working on my first real studio job. After that wrapped up in February, however, I wasn't hired for their next things. I've been living on odd little commission jobs and savings ever since and I'm not out of the woods yet.
Still, drawing isn't something I want to give up on, not professionally and especially not as a hobby, because every day I see many, many things that I want to be able to do. No matter what I'll have to do in months to come, giving up on it isn't an option because it's something that has been with me all my life.

Another option to waiting tables or digging ditches is production. After 17 years a graphic designer I wanted to venture into the animation field. I have a long way to go to develop my skills (drawing/animation/story telling/character development) and I figured the best way to do that was to get into the industry anyway I could - as a Production Assistant.

It's certainly not for everyone and I'm not sure where I'll end up, but I have access to some of the most talented people in the industry who are ready/willing/able to offer advice and criticism. They offer figure drawing classes once a week and have guest speakers just to name two perks.

Probably the best thing is just being around all the creativity and watching the process. The down side is to see all the talent and feel there's no way you'll ever measure up.

So my advice is to get in anyway you can, keep developing your portfolio and take it to the next level.

Good luck.

The down side is to see all the talent and feel there's no way you'll ever measure up.

Just in case this helps...

Most of the people who's talent you're admiring feel like they don't measure up in one way or another, if the people I've worked with over the last 15 or so years are any indication. Ultimately, the only person you're competing with is yourself. Keep at it - the only time you lose is when you stop trying.

Thanks for the advice guys

Sorry about responding so late, I wanted to take my time in reading the responses so that I could soak in the advice. I'm glad that so many of you take the time help out to help us rookies. I am even more thankful for those of you that take the not so popular route of explaining the downsides of this field. Yall know who you are.