I’ve written a story for young children, 4-7 age group. The trouble is there is very little text or dialogue. The visuals will carry the whole thing. I can’t draw!!!
So I rewrote it as an animation and looked into producing for online but the more I reread it and considered it fully I knew it need BIG animation to work. It’s not long, though I’m working on a second episode, but the animation has to be so good. It’s not about superheroes but something magical happening in the familiar, a residential street.
Anyway I thought about producing it myself by giving an equity stake to a studio willing to do it for me. When I say, studio, I of course mean a production house normally dependent on outsourced work rather than Uncle Walt et al. I contacted a studio in China who were very keen, (“a very good idea”). They were talking about the equity stake, I hadn’t sent them the material. As I finalised the text I called them again and go over the material and to my dismay the very good idea was no longer viable in any way. Despite their extensive Asian, European and American contacts they couldn’t see how it could work for them.
So I sent some emails to other companies, one in Canada, and another in China and one in the UK, where I’m based. I haven’t had so much as an acknowledgement from any of them. (I prefer to make initial contact my email because the probability of flummoxing someone at the other end of the phone is always high, hope that doesn’t sound condescending but it’s my experience.)
What should I do? Is the equity stake idea a non-starter? Should I settle for basic online animation which I know won’t do justice to the story? Should I just opt for an online book and engage an illustrator on an equity basis. If so should I commission drawings and control everything? Should I engage one of these producers in India for drawings? If so, how many samples should I expect before agreeing on a look? Can anyone recommend a production house?
Am I going about this the wrong way? Completely? Partially? Thanks!
Looking for advice, pointers, suggestions, possibly contacts.
Looking for advice, pointers, suggestions, possibly contacts.
Ken
Not sure about agents…my little piece may not be of interest and not obviously commercial in its virginal state. Agents need dollars to pay for the West LA real estate and the staff. Getting an option and using the money to advance the project is something I wouldn’t object to but the multimedia potential may not be immediately clear. Also when I consider the length of the two episodes, there only about 40 mins complete. of course animations of such length exists and are successful but I think studios- film or TV – want something longer even if they only do 40 mins of animation and then decide the idea is crap anyway.
PHACKER
No I was careful – said that but you must have missed it. Anyway my martial arts skills wouldn’t have got me very far if I had had to fly out and bruise testicles. They never saw a thing. It was just the feasibility of the financial arrangement that was originally discussed. Though you did get me thinking. When one is dealing with these companies in china, or wherever, one has little or no idea about them. They invest in websites and possibly stock photographs of an office. In many cases it could be a guy in his living room outsourcing to outsourcers. I know that is fairly routine. The factories of Nike animation are flourishing. The other point is atht in Asian countries there is a strong cultural impulse to save face – possibly I’m expressing this incorrectly- and say, Yes even when an affirmative is unlikely. I wonder if that played a part? When I spoke to them they were in no way rude, it was simply that the volte face was so unsettling, irritating and rather disarming.
DSB
I am sincere, and yes I’ve been on the receiving end of crap. But in most cases that scenario starts and then evolves when everyone is waiting for money at the end. I was offering a stake in the project, although to paraphrase Lear, nothing will become of nothing. I know.
The problem with getting drawings done is that the artists want the copyright and a fee! I have an issue about things like that. Well, firstly, and a lot of you may not like this: there are loads of illustrators and while many of them may gripe about designing labels for sausages or whatever very few do anything about it. If you try to engage an illustrator professionally it can become very contentious very quickly. If you want them do design a shop sign or a menu or a newsletter and the relationship is purely commercial, by which I mean fleeting too then I think things are easier. However if you are passionate and expressive about something creative then the pitfalls increase (soar) for a host of reasons. Maybe it triggers some kind of paranoia but I’ve found the more committed I am the more suspicious, rather than assured, they become. If I say to an illustrator I want simply a visualisation of my descriptions (that is, refrain from any creative input) will he or she regard it as only a use/abuse of their labour?
LAWRENCE
Thank you so much for your extensive input. I’ll take it on a point by point basis!
The process of animation. Yes I understand a bit about the animation process but am I completely mistaken as to how it’s done today? I though the digital process through extensive use of, manipulation of original drawings had rendered a substantial part of the hand-drawn process –and associated costs- redundant.
So what are all these outfits in India and china doing to cut costs? Even allowing for the cheaper base price standards will have to reach a certain level to be granted work from the West. I was quoted $1- 2K per minute of animation. I’ve seen ads from India were they are saying $325! Is the stuff very basic?
Live action for children has a more uneven success rate and I think producers prefer the opportunity to deal with fewer humanoids! And for children the fantastical is more real and captivating ath something filmed in the real world, especially the ages I’m targeting. Quite recently there was, here in Britain, a report which found that British children didn’t recognise anything about themselves in the TV entertainment aimed at them. I think that’s tragic. There used to be a thing called The Children’s Film Foundation that provide stuff as the name suggest for kids. The children in that had bad skin, National Health Service specs and came from home that weren’t always fit for the Queen. I’m sure some of the output was abysmal but I like to recall it sentimentally. Much of the stuff aimed at kids is oppressive. The cast are usually selected for their looks and everything is saturated in consumer gloss. I know the argument is complex and involves a multitude of socio-political factors but the fear is children are NOT being nurtured through entertainment. They are being bombarded by questions of esteem and confidence at an ever younger age. The ‘realism’ of animation springs from its unsurpassed ability to captivate and provoke a child’s imagination when it is at it’s most fertile.
Are ideas really a dime a dozen? I know there is s financial imperative to so much animation (I mean sequels and prequels rather than original) but these smaller house relying on outsourced work are not setting the world with original material. They seem content with this set-up. And if you are doing work for the studios you have – or should have- a fairly good network of contact and options. I think if ideas were plentiful the quality and diversity would be higher.
In most fields an equity stake is a fairly good way to do business. There’s no point elaborating on that, but see next but one anyway.
Posting on the forum was part of my research!!! Are programmes like Toon Boom and Antics poor? I’ve seen Flash animation but I’m not sure what it’s capable of.
Back to the sincerity point…There are very few ‘name’ illustrators despite some of the fantastic illustrations I see from say, children’s Book Press in the Bay area or North South here in Europe. Despite the economic success of animation in Hollywood – I mean the whole commercial chain rather than just BO- probably only John Lasseter is a name and guys (in the unisex sense!) who have worked on a stupendous list of successful animations will have little or no chance getting to helm a project or getting finance independently. Although the same could be said actors, writers, directors and producers of limited success and experience the difficulties are less so. You could argue that ratio of live action to animation output renders that point pointless but I would counter that the respect of the talent (lack) and comprehension of the economics and the lack of celebrity culture tie-ins are a greater factor. Also of course the ratio of success in animation exceeds live-action, ramble stops here to say that…in my experience of illustrators dealing with people in India or china offers, on the face of it anyway, less emotional and financial aggravation…which is me laying the groundwork for my point: why should an animator or illustrator object to an equity stake in a project? If you think there is no realistic chance in being paid then surely you shouldn’t participate. If you think something has an originality and freshness then you should take the chance and hope for the best and if it bellyflops well it ahs cost you time but the result could or should be something you use (in a portfolio/reel or whatever) with pride.
Yes, it’s frequently a cesspit.
What I mean is: are there horror stories I wouldn’t be aware of?
On a purely commercial basis, shouldn’t a range of sample drawings be part and parcel of the standard service.
Yes, but the point is apart from my ideas I’m impoverished!
I agree but I think my issues have been mentioned in the previous replies
Yes agree here too.
Heh, $325?? Per minute? 1440 frames for $325?
Think about what you'd be getting for that price, LOL!
Or NOT getting.
The base commonly quoted price for animation as around $10,000 per minute.
That's a BASE price. Quotes can go up and down from there depending upon who you deal with and what you want done.
That price could be expected to cover everything from the storyboards and designs to timing, layout and animation itself. It can be expected for animation of a single character, in a static shot, against a simple background with a fairly simple colour palette.
If someone is quoting a price of $325 per minute--think about what they are offering? Is the work going to be competent? Is the staff going to be reliable?
Is the work going to be usuable. Are they going to nickle & dime you to death for extras? Are there going to be hassles in communication? In managing the arrangements with the studio?
Animation is not cheap--a concept that people not involved in animation find difficult to grasp--especially when they want animation done for something.
If a studio is offering bottom dollar to get the work in, how are they treating their staff? If their staff are taking it on the chin in terms of bottom rates, they are going to cut corners on the work, and will be unreliable in completing the job because other better rates will beckon them. That's effect the outcome, re: your product.
$325 a minute will produce cheapass crap--there's no doubt about that, and so would $1000 a minute, imo.
This is really just common sense here.
Can you prosecute them if they abscond with your money in a foreign country?
Or another one: they deliver you a pile of unusable crap and claim its the best work they have ever done--and demand payment regardless of what you think.
Let's face it, if you are "impoverished" ( or just have a woefully small budget) the legal fees to get proper binding contracts written up between international parties would probably set you back at least a grand. Or two.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
And who could blame you? The nature of the relationship, however, is that they're providing "work for hire", which generally means that you own the copyright unless you specifically give it up. You should give the artist permission to include the work in his or her portfolio, just in case it turns out really well (or your series takes off; more on that in a sec.) In other words, they can ask for copyright, but you don't have to give it to them since you're paying for the work.
It's because we've heard it all before. Your concept is new and exciting to you, and that's all to the good. But from this side of the table, it sounds very much like a hundred other concepts by a hundred other people who came before - very few of which ever come to fruition. After awhile, artists simply get jaded. To complicate matters, there is always the chance that your concept could take off, in which case the artist doesn't want to get screwed, or worse, sit around watching a show that he or she did seminal development work on and didn't get a taste of the action. I know; you're offering participation, but so does everyone else. See how quickly it spirals out of control?
Well, there's no such thing as "no creative input" as the artist will be interpreting your descriptions, which requires some creativity on his or her part. That said, anyone who understands they're involved in a commercial relationship shouldn't have an issue with it. My mantra is "the guy who signs the checks gets to win." That's not to say I won't make my case if I disagree, but if after that he wants something else, he gets it.
I'd say the reason you are not getting any replies is because you are shopping this thing around yourself.
Use an agent instead, because that seems to quell any fears of intellectual property rights issues--and it also says that you have (begun) done some deeper homework as to how the biz works.
There's materials on-line and in print that can educate you better on this.
Its not that your idea is good or bad, its that you do not know how to play the "game" itself and are a totally unknown commodity to boot.
Commission someone to visualize your creation for you, get the material the way you want it to look--and THEN you have something you can shop around.
An idea or a proposal is just a fleeting arbitrary thing without the substance of something like visuals behind it--once you have those in hand, you'll be in a better position to gain an agent and actually get a foot in the door with studios that can help you realize this.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Or perhaps you gave them enough imformation to work on it themselves. Outsourcing can work that way, you may have outsourced your material without realizing.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
You sound sincere, and there's no reason to believe you're not. What you're asking people, though, is to do work up front for the promise of being paid sometime in the future - maybe. The creative community hears this type of thing all the time, and rarely, if ever, does it pay off. Naturally, they're hesitant to get involved in something like this, even if it's a sincere, legitimate offer. Too many shysters have salted the ground before your arrival, I'm afraid.
Ken's suggestion is a good one; pay someone for some development work (character designs, environment layouts, concept sketches), and shop your idea around with those. You'll have more than just your idea to show, and you'll look far more professional.
Protect your ideas and you can only do that by developing them and paying for the work.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
I would say go back to the children's book idea. This will be much cheaper and will also make the move to animation much simpler if you still want to do it.
With a childrens book you can hire an illustrator while you write the text. I don't know the price of hiring an illustrator, but it's much cheaper than hiring a whole animation studio to animate a series or even a pilot.
If your book does well, it will then be much easier to shop it to studios if you still want to turn it into an animated show. Studios always like to see an idea that has already done well in another medium because they know there is a built in audience already.
Thats my take on this whole thing.
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
That is the best idea I've read until now, Ape!
It is something that is possible, unlike the other suggestions, and may enable you to find a business partner or agent. You will need that for a book as well. Most authors are rejected, and only a few published.
However, a book can be self-published, and advertised via podcasting, in case you don't find a publisher willing to print and publish your children's book at first. So, there are more options than for an animated version.