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Animation and Tennis

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Animation and Tennis

Greetings, Everyone

I'm a tennis coach in New York. Like all coaches, I think I'm pretty good at what I do. :rolleyes: Who knows? I have a large and devoted following, anyway.

I would like to develop a website or CD or DVD for tennis-training. And I would like to use both 2D and 3D animation. This could be a ginormous undertaking, I know. So I'm floating the idea here to get some advice. And maybe find a collaborator!

A few questions to start:

Can I . . .

. . . show one swing from a variety of angles?

. . . show anything, such as footwork or ball contact, at a variety of speeds?

. . . show the flight of the ball, including its spin? With a vapor trail, maybe?

. . . zoom in or zoom out?

. . . enable the end user any of these functionalities? Maybe I need a programmer's help, too.

Can I . . .

. . . "lift" animation from real video? Know what I mean? Has any of you used software that achieves this?

And finally, are there any reasons this idea just won't work? Too much time and $$$ needed, maybe?

Hey, thanks for reading. And thanks ever so much for any feedback!

TJ

I can think of multiple solutions to anything in that first block.

As for the second block...Someone else can chime in, but personally I've never seen anything "read" full-body video for movement and translate that to an animated figure.

There was a presentation I saw recently that was essentially motion capture for facial expressions, that claimed to use no rigging and just read off of a video with heavy preparation to accomodate whoever's face was being filmed, but I apologize as I can't remember where that came from.

Nevertheless if they wind up doing a body version I think it would be prohibitively expensive at least in lieu of other things that could get the same job done, like studying the reference or even rotoscoping to match each pose with a model, understanding the spatial depths at play.

One thing you'll hear, and it's true with little exception, is the more you can afford, the higher quality the result. Animators of a certain caliber, because they are both efficient and do what you ask (and well), are able to command more and could simply pass if it were below range. Whereas if you (exaggeration coming up) had a 5-spot to spare you'd get student work with all the communication and procrastination and inexperience you'd expect to show up throughout the entire process. There's a whole spectrum. Based on the description of the project though, it sounds like you could get a nice enough job done without overspending and as well, I know quite a few people whose skills overlap into the amount of programming knowledge necessary to help build such a resource.

Thank you, Mate. I sure 'ppreciate the advice.

Again, ScatteredLogical, thank you. In my last post, I wasn't being tryin' to be glib. I was, in fact, racing out the door.

You make some really good points, and I hope I can learn a lot 'round here. In return, I will contribute whatever I can to this smart and really creative assembly.

He should also check the market to see what other have produced.

I would think all this is possible if you can pay for the work. Any idea how much all this would cost? Can you afford to hire the best?

You've outlined the ultimate in film and animation. Hey can you afford Pixar?

These things alone make your vision complicated.

. . . show one swing from a variety of angles?

. . . show anything, such as footwork or ball contact, at a variety of speeds?

. . . show the flight of the ball, including its spin? With a vapor trail, maybe?

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

"lift" animation from real video?

This requires paying for the rights from the participants in the video, software to capture the movement. And if you want to adapt this footage to your previous outline, software to convert the movements and speed or slow them down. None of that is cheap, especially if the those filmed are professional athletes.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Not to steer you from animation, but judging from your thoughts above, video would be the way to go. A good digital editor could do everything you described without a frame of animation. Hire a tennis player/actor. Collect a bunch of digital videographers and take 1-2 days to shoot angles and perspectives. Everything else can happen in the digital editing room. Video would likely take less time and money than animation.

Check with some of the animation schools in NYC:
CADA at NYU, and SVA (school of Visual Arts)

I know NYU has had some "special projects" classes (like 3D medical animation) where students work on actual projects. They also have digital video equipment and Green Screen facilities to help capture quality video you'll need.

Definitely sounds like a 3D project.

Ball rotation and different speeds are easy, as are motion paths.

Motion trails can be done in post production (After Effects).

My question would be why animate it? Sounds like double work. Why not shoot video and perhaps put graphics/effects on it.

Are you aiming for kids?

CMy question would be why animate it? Sounds like double work. Why not shoot video and perhaps put graphics/effects on it.

I'm just guessin', but I'd say it's probably because you can show the "ideal" foot position/swing angle/wrist rotation/etc. in animation easier than you can in video. Video requires someone who can do it absolutely correctly, or you're demonstrating less than ideal technique to your students. And to show it from multiple angles requires either lots of cameras all shooting at the same time or someone who can do it perfectly, repeately.

Again, just guessin'...

Thanks to all of you who weighed in. Your comments are thoughtful, and I 'ppreciate the time you took to post them.

I had a feeling 3D animation would be complex and costly. Especially as I should ask a talented, diligent animator to start at the very beginning. I don't have thousands and thousands to invest. I guess I was trying to learn if there is software that can do a lot of the tricks — so the animator can use an existing platform and then freewheel. I dunno, maybe I am naive.

The most recent discussion has been about animation vs. video. While I see the merits of both, I see two reasons to prefer animation. One is that there's a plethora of instructional videos out there, many with much bigger brand names than mine:

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/catthumbs.html?CREF=334

The other is what DSB has guessed — that video can be misleading. Please see an example here:

http://www.look-learn.de/e_index.htm

Click on Superslowmotion and watch the lefty forehand, fifth swing in the sequence. The footwork is awful! With the player's completely closed stance (in mid-air, yet) we know exactly where he will send the ball. No good! Animation would allow us to show the ideal — with an open stance, the player can disguise the direction of his shot. That is a huge difference. Animation could also illustrate several grips, several backswings, several ball strikes, and several finishes, all on the forehand stroke alone, all according to the incoming bounce or position in the court or sequence of the rally. If you have watched the swashbuckling Rafael Nadal, you know what I mean.

But what do I know about animation? If I get a skilled player who can, after multiple takes on a professional-quality digital cam, execute perfectly, we can go into an editing room and see how it comes out.

Again, thanks to you all.

TJ

What if you had 3D animations which could be rotated around, paused, sped-up or slowed-down in real-time on the web?

There are probably a number of solutions, but the one I'm thinking about is a plug-in for Animation:Master (the software that I use):
http://www.hash.com/hamr/WebHAMR.php

William Sutton
Zandoria Studios
http://zandoria.wordpress.com

BTW, here is a nice little project that combines video and animation:

http://www.imagesbyevvy.com/tennisforall/index.htm

Evvy, a Brit I think, first published these training tools as a website several years ago. It was becoming popular when he took it down. Now he is bringing it back in DVD format.

He did the videos of the players, all professionals, during their matches or practice sessions. Unauthorized, I would surmise. Does he owe them anything? Or were the players in the public eye?

Then Evvy introduced light animation and very good written commentary with a fun-loving, humourous style. I would be tempted to buy his DVD's, except that they still lack the depth I am envisioning.