I was offered a job as a flash animator/programmer at a studio where they're offering me $6/hr while training, which could possibly rise a couple dollars after training, all depending on how well I do. They're a growing company, pretty small right now. It seems horrendously low to me, especially since I went to college for $30,000 a year... but then again, I really have no idea what I should be expecting.
am I being taken advantage of?
By bossmonkey | Tuesday, August 22, 2006 at 11:15am
#1
am I being taken advantage of?
Landscape workers get more than that in California. I even think Walmart beginning employees make 6.35 to start, and they aren't required to have any education.
I would expect at least $10.00 and hour. But then I am not familiar with wages in Texas. Things are different there. Bush used be governor.
Would you be receiving any benefits?
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
Run for the hills! That is the worst compensation I have ever heard of! You can probably find warehouse jobs that pay between $8-$12 an hour! I made the mistake of taking a flash job in the past just because I needed work even though I knew going into it that the pay was low. After 5 months it was a struggle to pay the bills no matter how much fun I was having on the job. I quit after asking a long-time employee what the odds of getting a raise were and he said it pretty much doesn't happen, so I split.
Flash Character Packs, Video Tutorials and more: www.CartoonSolutions.com
You're being taken advantage of, especially for your skills. And it's not even about overpriced college, or feeling entitled to anything. There are precedents set for this sort of thing, and relative to those precedents in this field and others, you're being robbed like the new guy in a bad neighborhood.
In Florida, where wages are low against the cost of living, I made 8.50 an hour running from a big truck 15 feet to someone's door with a box and coming back to the truck. I was treated to free refreshments, good conversation, and classic rock radio. You have a skill that you've honed to an above-average level, are doing two jobs at once (and having those jobs cooperate in the same environment), and all the value they can place on that is a figure that's less than the minimum wage of all five states I've lived in.
What training do you have to go through? I've seen your Flash work, and it's amazing. Personally, I'd rather work at McDonalds. At least you can be promoted to manager there. :D
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
Unless you're an intern and know nothing, that seems ridiculously low.
However, I don't know what the market's like in Austin. Maybe you should take it just to help you pad your resume, and keep looking for something better.
Also, maybe you should take Supercuts and "concessionist" off your resume.
Maybe you should take "objective: to gain work experience" off, as well. Let them assume that you already have the experience you need.
Does anyone agree? disagree?
Your stuff looks great. You'll make it eventually. Hang in there.
I thought that was a weird joke until I looked at the site. Yah, I'm going to agree...include relevant work experience. The theater part is cute but if it doesn't make you a better [insert position here] for them, toss it. Definitely leave out a haircut place.
Also change the objective to what kind of work you'd like to be involved in while you're there, and don't be afraid to get kind of abstract.
"To gain work experience" = Says 'I'll be leaving you, and in my mind you are a stepping stone.'
"and familiarity with graphics" = which you already have
"and pursue my interest in animation." = which you're already doing.
I've seen people get good jobs coming right out and saying they want to imbue a feeling of life and sentience into animated characters through craft, technique, and acting prowess. It's more interesting and says a lot about the mindset. Like phacker says, call. Get a feel for them while you're at it. Maybe they like the dry stuff. But either way the pay is still blech.
To not list that employment in the resume leaves a gap that has to be explained, so even if you guys don't think that job was important, it shows that his employment was steady. And probably something he will have to fess up to when questioned.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
by the way, what is the name of the company that offered you so little? I'm tempted to call them up anonymously and ask what they pay, and then if they give me a ridiculously low number, I can rip them a new one!
Flash Character Packs, Video Tutorials and more: www.CartoonSolutions.com
It's not a judgement =) Nobody said it wasn't important, one person (me) said it wasn't relevant. "Fess up"...that implies judgment. There's nothing wrong with cutting hair, and most people have that as part of growing up, or something like it...food service, delivering mail, retail, etc. If I want to work at the Men's Warehouse, then they get to find out about my 7 months at Babies R Us. But doing the job well is, in practice, all that matters. That's why -relevant- work experience helps. They are interested in proof that what you intend to do for them, you are capable of doing, in a real-live situation. Unless shaving the back of someone's neck helps you to draw cartoons, I don't think they'll lose sleep over the omission.
She's young and talented. Nowadays everyone has to work or have had some work, they'll likely just assume she's paid her dues in that regard. Or she can say "Oh, me? I've been at college becoming this good so I can spend all that knowledge pumping out product for you." That doesn't take away the money made cutting hair. That doesn't mean it didn't have some useful function for her, like teaching her responsbility or managing time well...but that's a huge stretch to keep it tied in to the position.
Something tells me anyhow, though, hiring a Flash artist/programmer for 6 dollars an hour, this isn't the kind of place that would give a hoot or uphold any kind of standard like that.
The first thing HR people do is look at dates of employment, not the form of employment.
If there is gap you are ask about it.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
Experience, firsthand and secondary, tells me otherwise, so we'll have to agree to disagree. I have nothing further to contribute.
Does the person have experience that would help them in doing this? Yes? Oh good, for how long? Oh good...now, out of how long you've been doing this, where was it at so we get an idea of the exact work you were doing. Some of it's tacit, some of it isn't, but that's how it has gone for me and for 95% of the professionals and aspiring professionals with whom I keep close contact.
Since half of those I confer with are students making the leap into their first few jobs, the order of questions makes sense, since having any experience at all is big leverage and often is presumed to not be there.
Nevertheless, in the interest of being fair, I will then say....take me with a grain of salt, because it's just me and what I know, it may be different for other people and other situations.
Got some questions for ya Boss. Did you graduate from art school yet? Is this a full time job or a short term, summer intern type of job? Are there a lot of other animation studios in the area? What is the job market like in your area? These will affect what you will get paid.
Gap in his employment? He was only at the last two places for about two months each. I think that hurts his resume more than if he left them out. As an employer, I'd rather see that he worked for seven months at the movie thearters than two months at Supercuts. He should leave on the internship, but spice it up better.
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
I think the original question was about the hourly wage, not his resume.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
thanks for the response guys
I'm actually a guy, surprise surprise
also, that IS just an online resume that I haven't updated in forever, and not the one I show to employers, but thanks for pointing it out so I can replace it
I just finished my undergrad degree in animation. This will be my first animation job, and I'm currently unemployed.
while I'm training, which they said would take anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 months (though rarely the latter) I will be working freelance for them for $6/hr. No benefits. They'll be teaching me actionscripting (since I only know C++), and how to puppet animate with Flash (I have done very little puppet animation with Flash; I've only animated frame by frame, though I'll be doing that here as well). There are a few gaming companies here in Austin, but that means 3d, so only two 2d animation studios I've found here. It's a small company that's trying to expand - currently only employs 11 people.
apples : oranges ::
Boy this is sounding worse and worse! If you are a freelancer, you are supposed to get paid a higher hourly rate to compensate for the fact that you have to pay for your own benefits.
It also sounds really sketchy that the training period isn't set in stone and that it could vary between 2 weeks to 2 months! Generally there is a 3 week probation period where they will pay you, but have the option of letting you go if it's not working out. But having the nebulous time frame only benefit's the employer and not the employee. The employer can just keep dragging their feet and not commit to hiring you full-time as long as they want and keep paying you less money.
Flash Character Packs, Video Tutorials and more: www.CartoonSolutions.com
So, not only are you not a girl, ;) but you also don't have the necessary skills, so basically you'll be interning.
It sounds to me like you should jump on it.
Incidentally, don't worry about ActionScript. I am a colossal retard when it comes to programming (despite having a programmer father before he died)....I get the IDEA of how it all works, like the concept of algorithms and function calling and such....but it blows my mind how intricate people can get....And I can A.S. on at least an intermediate level if not more. I won't touch C++. If you can do that you should have no issues because it's like a Flash-specific C++ Lite.
well I've taken the job, and I'll push for at least $10/hr if not more if they decide to keep me after training.
Thanks guys.
apples : oranges ::
Just make sure you don't get pregnant. You can't afford a baby on that salary.
If he gets pregnant, I don't think he'll need a $6 an hour job for long - he'll be an instant celebrity! :D
Boss, I want to hear how it goes with your new job.
Please keep us updated.
Does anyone know how much an experienced Flasher gets paid these days? I'm guessing $25/hr ... ?
EDIT: I'm not talking about designers or heavy-duty Flash programmers. I mean, how much does the standard Flash illustrator/animator get paid?
Good luck monkey hope they work with you.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
will do harvey
thanks phacker
apples : oranges ::
$20-$25 sounds about right to me. The low-paying flash job I took several years back paid $12/hour, which would have been doable if it wasn't in Southern California where the cost of living is outrageously high! But my eyes about popped out of my head when I heard $6/hr posted in this thread. But I guess I wasn't looking at it from an opportunity standpoint, which should add the extra value that Boss Monkey is looking for.
Flash Character Packs, Video Tutorials and more: www.CartoonSolutions.com
It really depends on the complexity, timeframe and dificulty of the project. It can range anywhere from $25-50 an hour. Some times even more.
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
I've seen Monkey's work, and he can animate in Flash, he may not know actionscript, but that's usually the web designer's job to make sure it's compatible. Most media companies don't need it. You can easily make 20.00 an hour freelancing if your careful who you compete with. If you are producing for the web you will have to get away from the frame to frame mentality and learn to make symbols and conserve on file size. But I don't see that taking you two months to learn. Good luck and keep us updated on this.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
Well it's been a month, at least I think it has, and here's what I have to report, to anyone that's interested.
Things are pretty slow so far. For the first three weeks, they didn't have any projects with a long enough turnaround that they could take the time to train me. So during these three weeks I started working on my own Flash game during company time, using Actionscript books they provided me with. They seem pretty impressed with my programming skills. Granted, I'm not really learning on the job, but it's still a pretty sweet deal, considering I'm getting paid to have fun. As for the pay and benefits... these guys seem legitimately broke, but on the rise (hopefully), so they know they're not paying us enough; they just can't do anything about it.
The beginning of this week things started picking up, and I had to make some updates to their website, and create a newsletter they want to start sending out. No animation yet, but at least I've gotten a little work, so I don't feel quite so guilty getting paid for my time here.
(btw, I'm stuck in programming my Flash game, if anyone familiar with Actionscript can help me out... I've posted at flashkit but no response. It's a sidescrolling jet fighter game, and so far I've got the player, with quite a bit of embellished functionality, and one bad guy, with quite a bit of the same. How do I map this one bad guy throughout a level, so that he flies in particular patterns and copies of him show up on stage and specific times?)
apples : oranges ::
Of course you're learning on the job. You're picking up Actionscripting skills, and they're paying you to do so. That's the definition of learning on the job. And getting paid to have fun is one of the best situations anyone can find themselves in.
Never, EVER feel guilty for a lack of "real" work on the job. Unless it's your job to bring in the work, that part of it is beyond your control. If the situation persists for a long time, be concerned, but if it's a brief lull between projects, don't EVER feel guilty about that.
Yeah, I know... I was being mildly facetious about the guilt. It's been good so far, and I was told I should be receiving some animation work soon. :)
apples : oranges ::
Thats great to hear Boss. I guess we all have to start somewhere. I remember not getting paid that much doing the big dot bomb days. Yeah, learn as much as you can now befor it gets too hectic. That way you be even more of an asset to the studio, and they can take advantage of you even more. I'm joking. The more weapons of mass destruction you have in your assenal the more leverage you have when asking them for more money when work picks up for them. And you should re-inquire about more pay once your probation is up, unless that was already covered and settled upon when you were first hired. I hope things pick up for that studio.
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
$6 an hour is pretty low. but can you tell me what kind of training they are going to offer you and how long the training period will last?
also are you guranteed a position after the training period assuming you clear whatever their requirments are?
how big a studio or facility is this ? and what kind of project pipeline?
how much of a time investment will the studio make in you?
I may not have made this clear enough, but to me "to gain experience" says "I don't have the necessary experience" and "I am intern material."
This same sentiment can be reworded to sound better:
"to excel in my craft," "to become a valuable asset to my employers," "to make the client happy," etc.
Try to put the focus more on what you can do for them, rather than what they can do for you. :D
Excellent point. Most resume consultants will tell you the same thing. Let the potential employer know how they're going to benefit from hiring you.
While I agree that the wage offered seems low, the other part of the question is - what are you doing now and how much are you being paid? If your current pay rate is the same or even a little more and it's not an animation job, you might want to think about whether you'd rather earn money doing what you love rather than the run-of-the-mill kind of jobs listed on your resume.
One last resume point: I'd move the bullet about dispatching in your internship entry to the bottom of the list, which would move the Flash and database info up one each. Dispatching may have been a big part of your job, but you want to hilight the experience you gained that's relevant to the job you want.
None of us here know for certain what written resume was provided, we are going on the online resume. This may not be the one provided the employer.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
I agree.
Also consider how good one more Flash employment reference will look on your resume while you're scouting for a better job.
This employment "gap" takes place during BossMonkey's time in art school. No employer is going to ask about an employment gap that took place while the applicant was in college.
The one advantage I can see of leaving the "receptionist" and "usher" positions on is it shows you have people skills, but eventually you should take them off.
I'm going to apologize for not reading clearly. I still stand by my original point but it's a bit more credible if the position there was as a receptionist, since communicating back and forth with people (and especially clients if it's freelancing) is a more relevant skill.
Yep. While the pay may not be the greatest, more experience is more experience.
Right - for now it's good to show you have experience in the work world. That will matter less as your career unfolds and you gain industry-related experience.
I think I'd give them a call and very politely tell them that their wage scale is a little less than you expected, and you're sorry but you will have to decline their offer.
They may comeback with something much more worthwhile.
If not I am sure you can do better than that freelancing.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.