Phacker, I can vouch for JSchleifer. I am one of the most critical people I know when it comes to animation quality, and he does not disappoint a resume of world-class studios and oodles of high-profile work.
I'll save you the suspense. The reel just backs that up, showing he can handle his business on the artistic -and- technical side of things.
And I don't know why he says he can't draw. Perhaps he doesn't know people who can't draw, and has no relative context through which to view himself. :) Maybe he means in the manner of classical construction, but his drawing style is capable of being realistic and accurate but concentrates on strong personality and instinctive design sense.
And I don't know why he says he can't draw. Perhaps he doesn't know people who can't draw, and has no relative context through which to view himself. :) Maybe he means in the manner of classical construction, but his drawing style is capable of being realistic and accurate but concentrates on strong personality and instinctive design sense.
heh :) thanks for the kind words! but I sit around people who really CAN draw.. and I'm not up to the same level that they are. I can fudge my way around a drawing.. but it's an effort and I struggle with each one. Drawing doesn't enhance my animation ability at all.. it's the understanding of motion that helps me get the job done on a day to day basis.
Before I wait for 24 megs to download, what about telling me a little bit about what it is I am waiting for?
sure, I'm happy tell you.
This is my demo reel from my animation work on The Lord of the Rings. It includes shots of Gollum, the witch king, Shelob, and a few others. It's not every shot I did on LOTR, only some of the ones that are pure keyframe animation, none of the mocap editing shots.
It doesn't contain any of my work from Madagascar, the penguins christmas caper, or over the hedge.
If you want my CV.. it runs down something like this:
1996 - 1999 - Product Specialist at Alias|Wavefront 1999 - 2000 - Character Technical Director on the Lord of the Rings 2000 - 2001 - Animator on the Fellowship of the Ring Siggraph 2001 - Alias Masterclass - Integrating a creature rig into a production pipeline (available on DVD) 2001 - 2002 - Senior Animator on the Two Towers Siggraph 2002 - Alias masterclass - Fast animation rigs (available on DVD) Siggraph 2002 - Co-taught a siggraph course on character rigging 2002 - 2003 - Animation Lead on the Return of the King 2004 - current - Senior Animator at PDI/Dreamworks 2005 - current - Mentor at Animation Mentor.com Siggraph 2006 - Autodesk masterclass Animator Friendly Rigging
And PFC where is his work on view and what exactly is he doing. Would be nice to know. And if he can draw, why is he promoting to new people that it's not a necessary skill?
He was never saying that drawing is a skill nobody needs.. he's saying that it's not NECESSARY to become a good animator. And it's not. It can certainly HELP, but it's not a prerequisite. What IS necessary is the ability to observe, and understanding timing, spacing, form, weight, etc etc etc.
Is he such a bigshot that he can hire new folks that don't understand basic animation concepts or know how to draw? If so he could harvest quite a few right here that want to hear that.
I don't think PFC ever said he was a bigshot.. he simply defended himself when people were saying he had no right to an opinion. Everyone has a right to an opinion.. is the person receiving the opinion who gets to decide whether or not to TAKE that opinion.
How does he select his new hires based on education, applied skills, experience? I think that something everyone wants to know.
if PFC were in the position to hire someone, he would do what all of us in the industry do when looking at new hires. Look at their reel, determine whether or not they met the requirements of animating to the level that the job requires, and then meet them and find out about their personality. A big part of working in this industry is being able to work as a team player and get along with others.
If I saw a reel that was simply AMAZING, but when I met the guy he made my skin crawl because he was such a jerk.. well, his reel would go in the "no thank you" pile.
And PFC where is his work on view and what exactly is he doing. Would be nice to know. And if he can draw, why is he promoting to new people that it's not a necessary skill?
Uh.. maybe because he's had 20+ years of experience and that is his opinion? Let's face it phacker, some of us actually are working in feature films, have serious deadlines thoughout the day and don't have time to hang out here and squabble with people who obviously have huge chips on their shoulders... not to mention insecurity issues. Who are YOU to question this man's experience based on whether or not he's taken the time to put his stuff online? Because he's only posted a few times on a stupid forum? Well, have at with me. This is my first time I've EVER posted here. Obviously i know nothing too.
Is he such a bigshot that he can hire new folks that don't understand basic animation concepts or know how to draw? If so he could harvest quite a few right here that want to hear that.
What makes you think people can't learn animation principles solely thru 3-d? What in your vast animation experience has lead you to believe this? I'm sure plenty of your loyal readers would love to know. Are you such an expert that you know for sure this is true? If so, I'd love to have PFC and you compare resumes. But the truth of the matter is that the REAL experts of animation, the ones who really know their shit... don't boast and belitttle other animators based on whether or not they've posted on a forum. I've looked at your reel little rooster, and it's nothing to crow about. Where do you get off demanding anything?
How does he select his new hires based on education, applied skills, experience? I think that something everyone wants to know.
If I were PFC, i wouldn't even bother answering this question from you. But that's because I have no problem being a bitch. PFC is a respectble man, an incredible professional and an amazing supervisor to boot. That information to any newbie starting out is golden. But in my opinion, he has ever right to keep that information to himself for the way you are treating him here.
That's fine all you seem to know who he is. I don't. And I am sorry to ask questions, but I've learned on the web if you don't know who someone is you ask questions. Sorry for upsetting those of you that seem to know him. He's new here.
I don't know him from Harvey. Maybe he is Harvey???
That's true, you don't know if someone spouting advice has any knowledge at all.. but, many times people don't have a lot of time to put up their information on line.
That still shouldn't mean that they can't comment about something they may know quite a lot about. Especially when it's all just in sharing opinions. NOBODY knows 100% what is the right or wrong answer, we've all gotten to our respective positions through different means. I happened to get to my spot through one way.. you got to yours another. I know cg supervisors who worked their way up after starting off as a tape-loading operator. Yeah.. someone who simply loads tapes into machines and hits the "play" button.
There is no answer for the industry that works for everyone. The best advice ANYONE can give is: Learn as much as you can, but focus on what you're passionate about . If you want to be an animator.. learn about animation. C++ isn't necessary to be an animator. Drawing isn't necessary.. but it can help. Acting.. yeah, that can help. Knowledge of physics.. yes, that will help.
If you want to be a modeler.. sculpting will help, understanding form will help, lighting will help, composition will help..
so study your "area" of choice.. find out what skills might be involved.. and learn as much as you can about all of them.
..and by the way, melethanieathinea.. shush. you only have 1 post to your name.
Thanks for understanding John. The fact that you have a dog is point in my favour. I am not a big blue meany. Just someone that wants to understand before I jump on the bandwagon.
Thanks for understanding John. The fact that you have a dog is point in my favour. I am not a big blue meany. Just someone that wants to understand before I jump on the bandwagon.
ah, and my name's not john.. it's jason. Jonh and his dog is just the name of a short film I've been working on for 5 years or so, and the name of my website. :)
[I][B]
Acting[/B][/I].. yeah, that can help. Knowledge of physics..
For a 3D animator especially, both of these are certainly more important than drawing. In fact, I've been working on a thread on the subject of animation acting. It should be up in a day or so.
I'm delighted to see all you PDI folks joining the forum. Please continue to contribute, and contribute often. :D
I'm delighted to see all you PDI folks joining the forum. Please continue to contribute, and contribute often. :D
sounds good! I'm sure Melalthia & I will both have lots to say! :) Melalthia is actually the better "actor" out of the two of us.. I do good arm waving crazy animation.. she does good acting animation.
and if you couldn't tell.. we sit right next to each other. Have since.. well.. what.. since we were both on LOTR.
That's fine all you seem to know who he is. I don't. And I am sorry to ask questions, but I've learned on the web if you don't know who someone is you ask questions. Sorry for upsetting those of you that seem to know him. He's new here.
I don't know him from Harvey. Maybe he is Harvey???
Pat
Well, i'm sorry for being such a bitch. But I didn't see the title "moderator" under your Avatar so i didn't understand why you were demanding people to prove their identity.
Everbody is entitled to their opinion regardless of background. You don't have to agree. And you shouldn't have to have a Pixar/dreamworks/disney credit in order to have an opinion that might be valid.
Well, i'm sorry for being such a bitch. But I didn't see the title "moderator" under your Avatar so i didn't understand why you were demanding people to prove their identity.
Pax Jason and Melathia, I am not a mod, never will be one, but I will ask questions...and you can certainly jump my sh*t, that's expected. I am just a little self taught web animator. Sorry you took it so wrong, but so many here want the easy route, do you really want to lead them down that?
Pax Jason and Melathia, I am not mod, never will be one, but I will ask questions...and you can certainly jump my sh*t, that's expected. I am just a little self taught web animator. Sorry you took it so wrong, but so many here want the easy route, do you really want to lead them down that?
The easy route can sometimes work as well.. I don't think that not knowing how to draw is the "easy" route.. let's say you have 100 dollars worth of training time, and you want to be a 3d animator.
If you spend $70 learning to draw, and $30 learning to animate.. you'll be a great drawer, and an okay animator.
If you spend $10 learning to thumbnail and $70 learning to animate and $20 learning to apply thumbnailing to animation.. well, you'll be a much better animator than you would be if you knew how to draw a realistic sphere.
Actually following your outline you could do all that for free following free web tutorials.
I think I'd rather know how to draw and the basics of animation on a linear level than that.
And I've had 3d training. I learned to model, animate to a basic extent and texture and light. The animation that I learned was sh*t, until I came to AWN and Larry and Tony (and other animators on AWN) shared their knowledge with me.
And I've had 3d training. I learned to model, animate to a basic extent and texture and light. The animation that I learned was sh*t, until I came to AWN and Larry and Tony (and other animators on AWN) shared their knowledge with me.
well sure, you have to learn from the right places. Some place like Animation Mentor.com where you learn enough drawing to do what's important, but they really focus on the things that matter.. acting, posing, thought, process, critique.
Just learning how to make something move isn't enough. Learning how to make something WANT to move.. now that's magic.
speaking of, I really need to get back to my shot. :)
That's fine all you seem to know who he is. I don't. And I am sorry to ask questions, but I've learned on the web if you don't know who someone is you ask questions. Sorry for upsetting those of you that seem to know him. He's new here.
I don't know him from Harvey. Maybe he is Harvey???
Pat
Hi Pat,
Big thanks to Mel and Jason for the support! Here we have two of the top animators who worked on some of the most important films in animation histroy- Lords of the Rings, Toy Story 2 etc.. And they both TEACH animation. Are you going to dismiss their opinions? Why are you so keen on finding out people's background? Can't you decide what you agree with or not based on what people said?
If you have nothing better to do, check out the following links:
That should show some stuff that I worked on in the past. Nothing to write home about and it's not even a complete list. But it should be enough to show you I exist.
I can't send you my demo reel for approvel because it is nine years out of date. I have a feeling that you might have seen some of my work by accident anyway. (It would be great if you tell me you haven't!)
As far as I know, this forum is for animation fans. Anyone can join in a conversation without showing their work. I know you are so proud of your dog stuff and like to show that to the world, but if someone doesn't want to share his or her work with others (or can't be bothered) you should respect that.
Here's some good news for you. Some of us are busy animating and don't have time to hang around in forums all day like you do. You won't see that much of us here.
I think I already apologized Paul, but it would be nice when you register that you would do kind of an introduction. I wasn't trying to be a butthead, but every thing you guys espoused went against the leaders that have been here at AWN for years.
Why you got your shorts in such a knot over telling us a little bit about yourself is beyond me.
Taking cheap shots at Scooter isn't going to win you points with me. Scooter is what she is. I am not going to apologize for her. Maybe she doesn't live up to your big credits, but she lived up to my expectations.
And she and I did it by ourselves without studio funding or a huge support crew.
by the way, I just wanted to add that after re-reading all the posts, I thought Kevan summed it all up quite brilliantly in his earlier posts.
Animation is about performance, timing, emotion, character and experience. Everyone here works differently - some will thumb everything, some nothing, and most are in between. Previous posters are right in that drawing is great to help you quickly externalise your ideas, but that's not the same thing.
everyone should have listened to him instead of letting this degrade into a flame war that was a lot of fun, but really kinda useless. :)
But if I hadn't ask all the rest of AWN wouldn't be standing back with their mouths open in awe of your skill.
But I don't think Larry will ever buy into to ethic of no need to learn to draw. And guess what, I'd rather follow Larry's teaching then your promises of a great job based on getting work based on acting talent alone.
But if I hadn't ask all the rest of AWN wouldn't be standing back with their mouths open in awe of your skill.
I only put my stuff up there because you said to "put up or shut up" (my own quotes). I didn't do it to "brag" or have AWN gape in awe. It was to show that you don't know WHO is reading the forums and following along. There are many other people reading who have vast amounts more talent than I will ever have. It's important to remember that not all of them care to advertise their presence. Personally, I'm a media whore so I don't mind. :)
But I don't think Larry will ever buy into to ethic of no need to learn to draw. And guess what, I'd rather follow Larry's teaching then your promises of a great job based on getting work based on acting talent alone.
I never promised a great job from having acting talent alone.. you're twisting my words. I said that yes, drawing can help.. but it's not a pre-requisite to being a good ANIMATOR. Being a good ANIMATOR requires many skills, and being a good 3D animator does NOT mean one must be a good DRAFTSMAN. Does it help? Sure. But you know what helps more? Understanding MOTIVATION, MOVEMENT, PHYSICS, TIMING, SPACING, COMPOSITION, ARCS.. those things are more important than being able to draw. If you can do all of them.. fantastic!
As for hiring.. if I have 2 reels in front of me, one with good life drawing and one with no drawing at all.. I STILL only look at the animation side of things. If they both have equal animation ability (very rare), then I'll look at their experience. If they have the same films under their belts (rare), then I'll talk to their references. If they both have equally great references (also rare), then I'll meet them in person. If they both are stellar personalities (even more rare), then I'll look at what else they submitted with their reel.. if one has life drawing and the other doesn't, I may pick the one with drawing experience over the other, but I cannot say that I would for certain. There are many other things that come into play.
As for larry's future.. who knows? Learn to draw.. sure! more importantly, learn to ANIMATE.
I don't think Larry is worried about his future. He worked for Disney and taught at SCAD for years.
I'm not talking about larry's future.. I don't even know how he got dragged into this!
What I'm saying is, that based on MY experience as someone who's animated professionally for over 10 years, has reviewd countless animation reels, who has taught animation, and is extremely opinionated.. the most important thing you can learn when you're learning to animate is to understand motivation, weight, motion, timing, etc etc. Learning to draw CAN HELP, but it does NOT equal a job, and it does NOT equal a being a good animator.
In the recent Disney thread - where we discuss whether or not Walt was a good person - Phacker told me that my arguments about Disney were invalid because I didn't post a link to my portfolio.
In other words, trying to reason with this person is probably a complete waste of time. :D
Understanding MOTIVATION, MOVEMENT, PHYSICS, TIMING, SPACING, COMPOSITION, ARCS.. those things are more important than being able to draw.
When people here claim that drawing is essential to animation, they seem to be exclusively speaking of their own particular hand-drawn animation work, and ignoring stop-motion, 3D, and FX.
Hey gamecon90!
Is drawing important? Yes. Is it necessary? Depends.
I mean I'm a stupid teenage person who wants to get into animation, so this is my opinion, but unlike many fantastic professionals on this forum, i'm really pathetic.
Now anyways, drawing to me is essential 'cause that's the kind of person I am. I feel like if I don't draw, I'm going to go insane, I guess it's my stress-reliever, and to me if I don't thumbnail something, if I don't express my ideas or intentions visually, I won't be able to know the outcome of whatever it is I'm doing. Drawing is a great planification tool, but perhaps you don't need to see an idea visually, perhaps you are a genius when it comes to figuring an idea completely in your head. Now in that case, drawing is completely useless in that sense.
Listen, drawing is important. But is it important to you? What kind of person are you? Maybe you need it, maybe you don't. It all comes down to who you are. Figure it out, discover who you are. You'll find the answer if you draw. If you feel like it doesn't help in your animation, then don't draw.
Harvey Human has said in this thread (and forum) again and again that animation is vast. Are you into stopmotion or traditional hand-drawn or computer or whatever? I may rely heavily on drawing but when it comes down to doing a stopmotion, I don't draw anything except for the storyboards. In claymation, you need to be able to sculpt or build your characters, in cut-out you need to be able to cut many things and not lose them, and in the end, it all comes down to what everyone else has said in this thread. Acting, timing, and whatever.
Drawing isn't only for animation, what if sometime in a few years, you decide you don't want to do animation anymore, well with drawing skills you could easily transfer into a different art related job. You could design characters or make comics. It all depends.
Drawing helps, but figure out if it's something you require. No one can help you in determining whether or not drawing is for you. Discover who you are.
I'm sorry. I feel like I've repeated what everyone else said on this thread. :D
In the recent Disney thread - where we discuss whether or not Walt was a good person - Phacker told me that my arguments about Disney were invalid because I didn't post a link to my portfolio.
In other words, trying to reason with this person is probably a complete waste of time. :D
When people here claim that drawing is essential to animation, they seem to be exclusively speaking of their own particular hand-drawn animation work, and ignoring stop-motion, 3D, and FX.
Well Harvey you seem to be an expert on animation and websites, but none of us have ever seen evidence from you that you have any experience in either field. Talks cheap.
Splatman tried to fake me out on Alice Chalmers tractors, but he eventually fessed up.
When one of the freak "special needs" kids, I think Diemeras, asked Harvey about his work, I thought he not only explained his past work but also mentioned about times he'd posted it before.
Not speaking for him, but saying "none of us" have seen evidence isn't entirely accurate.
Pat, I think we all just need to calm down with the "PROVE IT PROVE IT" mentality.. so somebody has an opinion.. does that mean that they need to be an expert in the field??
I've got plenty of opinions about a lot of things.. politics.. driving.. "go".. web sites.. children's television.. but I'm not an expert in any of them.
However, I'll be damned if someone wants to stop me from saying "children shouldn't watch television, especially commercials." And I'm more than allowed to say that without having to post references to any degrees that I've received in communications and media, or whatever.
Pat, do you have any other examples of your work that you can show us? I'd like to see some more detailed drawings and animations.
Jason I was just asking about Harvey's background. Guess you guys have circled the wagons. Yeah, I posted some of my older work back when I was studying fine arts a while ago, but I think if was lost when the board was hacked. I'd have to recover it now. Sorry Scooter isn't enough for you guys, she's enough for me, and she allowed me to build my skills and and adapt to new media. Never pretended to be anything but a web animator and computer graphics person. I've never been hired by a big studio, aren't any up here in the boondocks, and I don't want to move.
pat, you weren't "asking".. you were attacking his experience and knowledge. There's a difference.
I will quote you:
Well Harvey you seem to be an expert on animation and websites, but none of us have ever seen evidence from you that you have any experience in either field. Talks cheap.
That's an attack. Next time try something like: "Hey, wow! you just said something that's interesting and has made me think! Do you mind if I ask about your background? You're coming at it from an angle I hadn't considered before, and I'm keen to learn."
As for your other comments..
We're not "circling the wagons". And I'm not claiming that scooter's not any good. I'm just asking if I can see other animation examples as well.
I'm basically doing the same thing you are.. you have a lot of opinions on the topics of animation and film, and I think that's great! However, if you want other people to keep showing their work to prove that it's okay to share their opinion, then I think that you should show more of yours as well.
are you sure it's not because every single thread seems to turn into this kind of back and forth drivel?
That's kind of the nature of web forums in general, but, yes, attacks on the character of other forum members is particularly egregious. oh well :rolleyes:
That's not true we go happily along our merry way here until certain people drop in and stir the waters. Harvey wants to be a mod and impress your Pixar people. More power to him, and please take him away.
You'll get to know more about me over time, but Harvey will never share with you.
the whole point of this thread was someone asking if they need to learn to draw if they're giong to be a cg animator.
there were a whole bunch of theories thrown back and forth, and it's up to that person to take what was said and figure out what to do with it.
If people saying their piece want to back up their arguments and make them stronger by stating their experience.. then great! but some people don't want to make their backgrounds known because their employeers don't want them trolling on message boards.
But if I hadn't ask all the rest of AWN wouldn't be standing back with their mouths open in awe of your skill.
But I don't think Larry will ever buy into to ethic of no need to learn to draw. And guess what, I'd rather follow Larry's teaching then your promises of a great job based on getting work based on acting talent alone.
Who's Larry? And who does he recruit for? Some places really push drawing; Disney is one of them. And depending on how old and crumudgen you are... (like myself) if you have that attitude you probably have been around forever. Back in the day.. there was no such thing as animators who couldn't draw. So it was beaten in our head that in order to animate you have to be able to draw; you just couldn't imagine otherwise. Persoanlly, I do think Drawing helps with animation because when you learn how to draw.. you learn about good silhouette value, negative space, balance and how to push a pose. But i would think that because I graduated animation school back in 95... back in the days where CG features were really just starting up. But now days, I know too many amazing people who can barely draw a stick figure who've gotten jobs. And who are amazing animators.
So i think that attitude is going to be different depending on where you apply, and even then there are no hard fast rules about it. (Game companies will look for something different than feature house studios, and feature house studios will look for something different than Feature FX studios.) Most Feature animation studios want to see your animation skill first. They want to see how you handle weight, timing and acting. That's can be 2d, CG or Stop-motion. Places like Pixar and Dreamworks, will also be interested in how you tell a story... so if you made a short film.. this is an added bonus. In fact for a place like Pixar, i would say you need to short film in order to get hired there. This is so they can see your story aesthetic and and whether or not you fit into the culture. Pixar doesn't just want animators, they want film makers. But you don't have to have drawing skills to get hired there.
I think I already apologized Paul, but it would be nice when you register that you would do kind of an introduction. I wasn't trying to be a butthead, but every thing you guys espoused went against the leaders that have been here at AWN for years.
Why you got your shorts in such a knot over telling us a little bit about yourself is beyond me.
Taking cheap shots at Scooter isn't going to win you points with me. Scooter is what she is. I am not going to apologize for her. Maybe she doesn't live up to your big credits, but she lived up to my expectations.
And she and I did it by ourselves without studio funding or a huge support crew.
Hi Pat,
Like Mel, I'm also calm now.
Hope you and your Scooter live happily ever after.
Welcome to the AWN Forums Melalthia, and welcome back Jason. I miss seeing you on the AM classes. It's great to have more professionals on the site. I hope both of you stay on for a long time.
I can't draw very well at all, but I can animate.
Why is it that people who CAN draw well always say they can't? :D
I do think drawing is important for an animator. Although I know people who can draw amazing characters but can't animate their way out of a paper bag. On the flip side, I know others who can only draw barely evolved stickfigures that can animate like no body's buiness. Then there are those who can do both. I hate those people. :P
Drawing is important for an animator. What level of drawing capabilities, now thats a different story.
Aloha,
the Ape
—
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
Why is it that people who CAN draw well always say they can't? :D
I know you were kidding around, but I think the truth at the center of the joke is that drawing is a sliding scale, and the scale is always changing. Whatever our level of skill, we always know of someone who could kick our butts artistically. Most artists spend little time considering how much they've improved over time, and instead focus on their own shortcomings.
I know people who can draw amazing characters but can't animate their way out of a paper bag. On the flip side, I know others who can only draw barely evolved stickfigures that can animate like no body's buiness. Then there are those who can do both. I hate those people. :P
LOL! Everyone hates those people - especially if they're younger than we are... :D
Phacker, I can vouch for JSchleifer. I am one of the most critical people I know when it comes to animation quality, and he does not disappoint a resume of world-class studios and oodles of high-profile work.
I'll save you the suspense. The reel just backs that up, showing he can handle his business on the artistic -and- technical side of things.
And I don't know why he says he can't draw. Perhaps he doesn't know people who can't draw, and has no relative context through which to view himself. :) Maybe he means in the manner of classical construction, but his drawing style is capable of being realistic and accurate but concentrates on strong personality and instinctive design sense.
heh :) thanks for the kind words! but I sit around people who really CAN draw.. and I'm not up to the same level that they are. I can fudge my way around a drawing.. but it's an effort and I struggle with each one. Drawing doesn't enhance my animation ability at all.. it's the understanding of motion that helps me get the job done on a day to day basis.
sure, I'm happy tell you.
This is my demo reel from my animation work on The Lord of the Rings. It includes shots of Gollum, the witch king, Shelob, and a few others. It's not every shot I did on LOTR, only some of the ones that are pure keyframe animation, none of the mocap editing shots.
It doesn't contain any of my work from Madagascar, the penguins christmas caper, or over the hedge.
If you want my CV.. it runs down something like this:
1996 - 1999 - Product Specialist at Alias|Wavefront
1999 - 2000 - Character Technical Director on the Lord of the Rings
2000 - 2001 - Animator on the Fellowship of the Ring
Siggraph 2001 - Alias Masterclass - Integrating a creature rig into a production pipeline (available on DVD)
2001 - 2002 - Senior Animator on the Two Towers
Siggraph 2002 - Alias masterclass - Fast animation rigs (available on DVD)
Siggraph 2002 - Co-taught a siggraph course on character rigging
2002 - 2003 - Animation Lead on the Return of the King
2004 - current - Senior Animator at PDI/Dreamworks
2005 - current - Mentor at Animation Mentor.com
Siggraph 2006 - Autodesk masterclass Animator Friendly Rigging
as for my drawing ability.. not that great, you can see some of my sketches on my flickr account:
http://flickr.com/photos/woot/sets/761817/
He was never saying that drawing is a skill nobody needs.. he's saying that it's not NECESSARY to become a good animator. And it's not. It can certainly HELP, but it's not a prerequisite. What IS necessary is the ability to observe, and understanding timing, spacing, form, weight, etc etc etc.
I don't think PFC ever said he was a bigshot.. he simply defended himself when people were saying he had no right to an opinion. Everyone has a right to an opinion.. is the person receiving the opinion who gets to decide whether or not to TAKE that opinion.
if PFC were in the position to hire someone, he would do what all of us in the industry do when looking at new hires. Look at their reel, determine whether or not they met the requirements of animating to the level that the job requires, and then meet them and find out about their personality. A big part of working in this industry is being able to work as a team player and get along with others.
If I saw a reel that was simply AMAZING, but when I met the guy he made my skin crawl because he was such a jerk.. well, his reel would go in the "no thank you" pile.
Uh.. maybe because he's had 20+ years of experience and that is his opinion? Let's face it phacker, some of us actually are working in feature films, have serious deadlines thoughout the day and don't have time to hang out here and squabble with people who obviously have huge chips on their shoulders... not to mention insecurity issues. Who are YOU to question this man's experience based on whether or not he's taken the time to put his stuff online? Because he's only posted a few times on a stupid forum? Well, have at with me. This is my first time I've EVER posted here. Obviously i know nothing too.
What makes you think people can't learn animation principles solely thru 3-d? What in your vast animation experience has lead you to believe this? I'm sure plenty of your loyal readers would love to know. Are you such an expert that you know for sure this is true? If so, I'd love to have PFC and you compare resumes. But the truth of the matter is that the REAL experts of animation, the ones who really know their shit... don't boast and belitttle other animators based on whether or not they've posted on a forum. I've looked at your reel little rooster, and it's nothing to crow about. Where do you get off demanding anything?
If I were PFC, i wouldn't even bother answering this question from you. But that's because I have no problem being a bitch. PFC is a respectble man, an incredible professional and an amazing supervisor to boot. That information to any newbie starting out is golden. But in my opinion, he has ever right to keep that information to himself for the way you are treating him here.
-m
--
Melanie Cordan
Animator @ PDI/Dreamworks
http://www.squeaktoyfilms.com/blog/
http://www.hiddentower.com/Melanie/
That's fine all you seem to know who he is. I don't. And I am sorry to ask questions, but I've learned on the web if you don't know who someone is you ask questions. Sorry for upsetting those of you that seem to know him. He's new here.
I don't know him from Harvey. Maybe he is Harvey???
Pat
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
Heya pat,
That's true, you don't know if someone spouting advice has any knowledge at all.. but, many times people don't have a lot of time to put up their information on line.
That still shouldn't mean that they can't comment about something they may know quite a lot about. Especially when it's all just in sharing opinions. NOBODY knows 100% what is the right or wrong answer, we've all gotten to our respective positions through different means. I happened to get to my spot through one way.. you got to yours another. I know cg supervisors who worked their way up after starting off as a tape-loading operator. Yeah.. someone who simply loads tapes into machines and hits the "play" button.
There is no answer for the industry that works for everyone. The best advice ANYONE can give is: Learn as much as you can, but focus on what you're passionate about . If you want to be an animator.. learn about animation. C++ isn't necessary to be an animator. Drawing isn't necessary.. but it can help. Acting.. yeah, that can help. Knowledge of physics.. yes, that will help.
If you want to be a modeler.. sculpting will help, understanding form will help, lighting will help, composition will help..
so study your "area" of choice.. find out what skills might be involved.. and learn as much as you can about all of them.
..and by the way, melethanieathinea.. shush. you only have 1 post to your name.
:)
Thanks for understanding John. The fact that you have a dog is point in my favour. I am not a big blue meany. Just someone that wants to understand before I jump on the bandwagon.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
ah, and my name's not john.. it's jason. Jonh and his dog is just the name of a short film I've been working on for 5 years or so, and the name of my website. :)
I will not be shushed by you. Quit your shushing you... you shusher you!
--
Melanie Cordan
Animator @ PDI/Dreamworks
http://www.squeaktoyfilms.com/blog/
http://www.hiddentower.com/Melanie/
I can say "shush", you can't say "shush".
For a 3D animator especially, both of these are certainly more important than drawing. In fact, I've been working on a thread on the subject of animation acting. It should be up in a day or so.
I'm delighted to see all you PDI folks joining the forum. Please continue to contribute, and contribute often. :D
Visit my Getting to Know You thread and tell us about yourselves!
http://forums.awn.com/showthread.php?t=4421
sounds good! I'm sure Melalthia & I will both have lots to say! :) Melalthia is actually the better "actor" out of the two of us.. I do good arm waving crazy animation.. she does good acting animation.
and if you couldn't tell.. we sit right next to each other. Have since.. well.. what.. since we were both on LOTR.
Well, i'm sorry for being such a bitch. But I didn't see the title "moderator" under your Avatar so i didn't understand why you were demanding people to prove their identity.
Everbody is entitled to their opinion regardless of background. You don't have to agree. And you shouldn't have to have a Pixar/dreamworks/disney credit in order to have an opinion that might be valid.
--
Melanie Cordan
Animator @ PDI/Dreamworks
http://www.squeaktoyfilms.com/blog/
http://www.hiddentower.com/Melanie/
shh.. shhh... shhh.. it's okay little camper.
let's go get some coffee.
Pax Jason and Melathia, I am not a mod, never will be one, but I will ask questions...and you can certainly jump my sh*t, that's expected. I am just a little self taught web animator. Sorry you took it so wrong, but so many here want the easy route, do you really want to lead them down that?
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
The easy route can sometimes work as well.. I don't think that not knowing how to draw is the "easy" route.. let's say you have 100 dollars worth of training time, and you want to be a 3d animator.
If you spend $70 learning to draw, and $30 learning to animate.. you'll be a great drawer, and an okay animator.
If you spend $10 learning to thumbnail and $70 learning to animate and $20 learning to apply thumbnailing to animation.. well, you'll be a much better animator than you would be if you knew how to draw a realistic sphere.
Actually following your outline you could do all that for free following free web tutorials.
I think I'd rather know how to draw and the basics of animation on a linear level than that.
And I've had 3d training. I learned to model, animate to a basic extent and texture and light. The animation that I learned was sh*t, until I came to AWN and Larry and Tony (and other animators on AWN) shared their knowledge with me.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
well sure, you have to learn from the right places. Some place like Animation Mentor.com where you learn enough drawing to do what's important, but they really focus on the things that matter.. acting, posing, thought, process, critique.
Just learning how to make something move isn't enough. Learning how to make something WANT to move.. now that's magic.
speaking of, I really need to get back to my shot. :)
Ok. I'm calm now. And I feel like a shit.
I'm sorry for being so raging, phacker.
Damn.. i need to drink less coffee!
--
Melanie Cordan
Animator @ PDI/Dreamworks
http://www.squeaktoyfilms.com/blog/
http://www.hiddentower.com/Melanie/
Hi Pat,
Big thanks to Mel and Jason for the support! Here we have two of the top animators who worked on some of the most important films in animation histroy- Lords of the Rings, Toy Story 2 etc.. And they both TEACH animation. Are you going to dismiss their opinions? Why are you so keen on finding out people's background? Can't you decide what you agree with or not based on what people said?
If you have nothing better to do, check out the following links:
http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hc&id=1808777010&cf=gen
http://imdb.com/name/nm1654251/
http://www.annieawards.com/29thannieawardwinners.htm
That should show some stuff that I worked on in the past. Nothing to write home about and it's not even a complete list. But it should be enough to show you I exist.
I can't send you my demo reel for approvel because it is nine years out of date. I have a feeling that you might have seen some of my work by accident anyway. (It would be great if you tell me you haven't!)
As far as I know, this forum is for animation fans. Anyone can join in a conversation without showing their work. I know you are so proud of your dog stuff and like to show that to the world, but if someone doesn't want to share his or her work with others (or can't be bothered) you should respect that.
Here's some good news for you. Some of us are busy animating and don't have time to hang around in forums all day like you do. You won't see that much of us here.
-Paul
http://cargocollective.com/paulchunganimation
I think I already apologized Paul, but it would be nice when you register that you would do kind of an introduction. I wasn't trying to be a butthead, but every thing you guys espoused went against the leaders that have been here at AWN for years.
Why you got your shorts in such a knot over telling us a little bit about yourself is beyond me.
Taking cheap shots at Scooter isn't going to win you points with me. Scooter is what she is. I am not going to apologize for her. Maybe she doesn't live up to your big credits, but she lived up to my expectations.
And she and I did it by ourselves without studio funding or a huge support crew.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
by the way, I just wanted to add that after re-reading all the posts, I thought Kevan summed it all up quite brilliantly in his earlier posts.
everyone should have listened to him instead of letting this degrade into a flame war that was a lot of fun, but really kinda useless. :)
Yeah I think Kevan said it all too.
But if I hadn't ask all the rest of AWN wouldn't be standing back with their mouths open in awe of your skill.
But I don't think Larry will ever buy into to ethic of no need to learn to draw. And guess what, I'd rather follow Larry's teaching then your promises of a great job based on getting work based on acting talent alone.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
woot! then we're agreed!
I only put my stuff up there because you said to "put up or shut up" (my own quotes). I didn't do it to "brag" or have AWN gape in awe. It was to show that you don't know WHO is reading the forums and following along. There are many other people reading who have vast amounts more talent than I will ever have. It's important to remember that not all of them care to advertise their presence. Personally, I'm a media whore so I don't mind. :)
I never promised a great job from having acting talent alone.. you're twisting my words. I said that yes, drawing can help.. but it's not a pre-requisite to being a good ANIMATOR. Being a good ANIMATOR requires many skills, and being a good 3D animator does NOT mean one must be a good DRAFTSMAN. Does it help? Sure. But you know what helps more? Understanding MOTIVATION, MOVEMENT, PHYSICS, TIMING, SPACING, COMPOSITION, ARCS.. those things are more important than being able to draw. If you can do all of them.. fantastic!
As for hiring.. if I have 2 reels in front of me, one with good life drawing and one with no drawing at all.. I STILL only look at the animation side of things. If they both have equal animation ability (very rare), then I'll look at their experience. If they have the same films under their belts (rare), then I'll talk to their references. If they both have equally great references (also rare), then I'll meet them in person. If they both are stellar personalities (even more rare), then I'll look at what else they submitted with their reel.. if one has life drawing and the other doesn't, I may pick the one with drawing experience over the other, but I cannot say that I would for certain. There are many other things that come into play.
As for larry's future.. who knows? Learn to draw.. sure! more importantly, learn to ANIMATE.
I don't think Larry is worried about his future. He worked for Disney and taught at SCAD for years.
Maybe you new folks should take some time getting acquainted with this board and the people here.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
I'm not talking about larry's future.. I don't even know how he got dragged into this!
What I'm saying is, that based on MY experience as someone who's animated professionally for over 10 years, has reviewd countless animation reels, who has taught animation, and is extremely opinionated.. the most important thing you can learn when you're learning to animate is to understand motivation, weight, motion, timing, etc etc. Learning to draw CAN HELP, but it does NOT equal a job, and it does NOT equal a being a good animator.
Period.
Larry? Your comments?
In the recent Disney thread - where we discuss whether or not Walt was a good person - Phacker told me that my arguments about Disney were invalid because I didn't post a link to my portfolio.
In other words, trying to reason with this person is probably a complete waste of time. :D
When people here claim that drawing is essential to animation, they seem to be exclusively speaking of their own particular hand-drawn animation work, and ignoring stop-motion, 3D, and FX.
Hey gamecon90!
Is drawing important? Yes. Is it necessary? Depends.
I mean I'm a stupid teenage person who wants to get into animation, so this is my opinion, but unlike many fantastic professionals on this forum, i'm really pathetic.
Now anyways, drawing to me is essential 'cause that's the kind of person I am. I feel like if I don't draw, I'm going to go insane, I guess it's my stress-reliever, and to me if I don't thumbnail something, if I don't express my ideas or intentions visually, I won't be able to know the outcome of whatever it is I'm doing. Drawing is a great planification tool, but perhaps you don't need to see an idea visually, perhaps you are a genius when it comes to figuring an idea completely in your head. Now in that case, drawing is completely useless in that sense.
Listen, drawing is important. But is it important to you? What kind of person are you? Maybe you need it, maybe you don't. It all comes down to who you are. Figure it out, discover who you are. You'll find the answer if you draw. If you feel like it doesn't help in your animation, then don't draw.
Harvey Human has said in this thread (and forum) again and again that animation is vast. Are you into stopmotion or traditional hand-drawn or computer or whatever? I may rely heavily on drawing but when it comes down to doing a stopmotion, I don't draw anything except for the storyboards. In claymation, you need to be able to sculpt or build your characters, in cut-out you need to be able to cut many things and not lose them, and in the end, it all comes down to what everyone else has said in this thread. Acting, timing, and whatever.
Drawing isn't only for animation, what if sometime in a few years, you decide you don't want to do animation anymore, well with drawing skills you could easily transfer into a different art related job. You could design characters or make comics. It all depends.
Drawing helps, but figure out if it's something you require. No one can help you in determining whether or not drawing is for you. Discover who you are.
I'm sorry. I feel like I've repeated what everyone else said on this thread. :D
Heya heathen!
well said! :)
>> many times people don't have a lot of time to put up their information on line.
Especially those finishing up Masterclass handouts and DVDs, right? right? (kidding, take your time ...enjoyed the classes very much.)
I hope gamecon appreciates the response he's gotten.
Well Harvey you seem to be an expert on animation and websites, but none of us have ever seen evidence from you that you have any experience in either field. Talks cheap.
Splatman tried to fake me out on Alice Chalmers tractors, but he eventually fessed up.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
When one of the freak "special needs" kids, I think Diemeras, asked Harvey about his work, I thought he not only explained his past work but also mentioned about times he'd posted it before.
Not speaking for him, but saying "none of us" have seen evidence isn't entirely accurate.
Maybe you could post a link to that Scattered.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
Pat, I think we all just need to calm down with the "PROVE IT PROVE IT" mentality.. so somebody has an opinion.. does that mean that they need to be an expert in the field??
I've got plenty of opinions about a lot of things.. politics.. driving.. "go".. web sites.. children's television.. but I'm not an expert in any of them.
However, I'll be damned if someone wants to stop me from saying "children shouldn't watch television, especially commercials." And I'm more than allowed to say that without having to post references to any degrees that I've received in communications and media, or whatever.
Pat, do you have any other examples of your work that you can show us? I'd like to see some more detailed drawings and animations.
thanks! :)
-jason
Jason I was just asking about Harvey's background. Guess you guys have circled the wagons. Yeah, I posted some of my older work back when I was studying fine arts a while ago, but I think if was lost when the board was hacked. I'd have to recover it now. Sorry Scooter isn't enough for you guys, she's enough for me, and she allowed me to build my skills and and adapt to new media. Never pretended to be anything but a web animator and computer graphics person. I've never been hired by a big studio, aren't any up here in the boondocks, and I don't want to move.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
pat, you weren't "asking".. you were attacking his experience and knowledge. There's a difference.
I will quote you:
That's an attack. Next time try something like: "Hey, wow! you just said something that's interesting and has made me think! Do you mind if I ask about your background? You're coming at it from an angle I hadn't considered before, and I'm keen to learn."
As for your other comments..
We're not "circling the wagons". And I'm not claiming that scooter's not any good. I'm just asking if I can see other animation examples as well.
I'm basically doing the same thing you are.. you have a lot of opinions on the topics of animation and film, and I think that's great! However, if you want other people to keep showing their work to prove that it's okay to share their opinion, then I think that you should show more of yours as well.
it's only fair, right?
hugs?
I've presented examples of my work, Harvey never has.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
didn't scattered just say that he HAD talked of his previous work before?
check it out.. page 12.. just a few posts ago.
At any rate.. he's posting an opinion. his opinion is totaly valid whether or not he's a total newbie to animation, or if he's glen keene.
Have you or anyone else seen his work? Opinions are one thing coming off as an expert is another.
Give me a link...I'll shut up.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
New folks are afraid to post introductions in the Cafe, because of the arguments Harvey is involved in. If he has a CV let him post it.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
are you sure it's not because every single thread seems to turn into this kind of back and forth drivel?
Contrary to what you want to believe I haven't always disagreed with Harvey.
I am done here. I hope you learn to love Harvey down the road. It's an experience.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
I don't believe anything of the sort. :) and I look forward to getting to know both of you much better!
woo! :)
That's kind of the nature of web forums in general, but, yes, attacks on the character of other forum members is particularly egregious. oh well :rolleyes:
That's not true we go happily along our merry way here until certain people drop in and stir the waters. Harvey wants to be a mod and impress your Pixar people. More power to him, and please take him away.
You'll get to know more about me over time, but Harvey will never share with you.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
I don't care about his work!
the whole point of this thread was someone asking if they need to learn to draw if they're giong to be a cg animator.
there were a whole bunch of theories thrown back and forth, and it's up to that person to take what was said and figure out what to do with it.
If people saying their piece want to back up their arguments and make them stronger by stating their experience.. then great! but some people don't want to make their backgrounds known because their employeers don't want them trolling on message boards.
oops.
:)
Who's Larry? And who does he recruit for? Some places really push drawing; Disney is one of them. And depending on how old and crumudgen you are... (like myself) if you have that attitude you probably have been around forever. Back in the day.. there was no such thing as animators who couldn't draw. So it was beaten in our head that in order to animate you have to be able to draw; you just couldn't imagine otherwise. Persoanlly, I do think Drawing helps with animation because when you learn how to draw.. you learn about good silhouette value, negative space, balance and how to push a pose. But i would think that because I graduated animation school back in 95... back in the days where CG features were really just starting up. But now days, I know too many amazing people who can barely draw a stick figure who've gotten jobs. And who are amazing animators.
So i think that attitude is going to be different depending on where you apply, and even then there are no hard fast rules about it. (Game companies will look for something different than feature house studios, and feature house studios will look for something different than Feature FX studios.) Most Feature animation studios want to see your animation skill first. They want to see how you handle weight, timing and acting. That's can be 2d, CG or Stop-motion. Places like Pixar and Dreamworks, will also be interested in how you tell a story... so if you made a short film.. this is an added bonus. In fact for a place like Pixar, i would say you need to short film in order to get hired there. This is so they can see your story aesthetic and and whether or not you fit into the culture. Pixar doesn't just want animators, they want film makers. But you don't have to have drawing skills to get hired there.
--
Melanie Cordan
Animator @ PDI/Dreamworks
http://www.squeaktoyfilms.com/blog/
http://www.hiddentower.com/Melanie/
Hi Pat,
Like Mel, I'm also calm now.
Hope you and your Scooter live happily ever after.
-Paul
http://cargocollective.com/paulchunganimation
Welcome to the AWN Forums Melalthia, and welcome back Jason. I miss seeing you on the AM classes. It's great to have more professionals on the site. I hope both of you stay on for a long time.
Why is it that people who CAN draw well always say they can't? :D
I do think drawing is important for an animator. Although I know people who can draw amazing characters but can't animate their way out of a paper bag. On the flip side, I know others who can only draw barely evolved stickfigures that can animate like no body's buiness. Then there are those who can do both. I hate those people. :P
Drawing is important for an animator. What level of drawing capabilities, now thats a different story.
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
I know you were kidding around, but I think the truth at the center of the joke is that drawing is a sliding scale, and the scale is always changing. Whatever our level of skill, we always know of someone who could kick our butts artistically. Most artists spend little time considering how much they've improved over time, and instead focus on their own shortcomings.
LOL! Everyone hates those people - especially if they're younger than we are... :D
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