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Animators and artits needed - Project Validus

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Animators and artits needed - Project Validus

I've been making a demo for quite some time, title: Project Validus.

Check it out here:
http://www.lazy-nation.com/features/ProjectValidus.html

The demo is only survival mode, and I need help making story mode!

Survival mode is only a fraction as glorious as Story Mode will be. You'll control 6 different characters thorugh the main city, each with thier own plots.
As you play it reveals more of the main plot.
The game will be released in chapters, to avoid making to project into a huge unfinishable chunk.
(see forum link below for more info)

Anyway, Project Validus will need:
(me not included)

3 or 4 Lead artists - and infinite regular artists

4 or 5 Lead animators - and infinite regular animators

1 or 2 Lead musicians - and a few regular musicians

4- 5 Lead voice actors - and 10 -20 regular voice actors

5 - INFINITE BETA TESTERS - we'll need a lot of these.

0 - 2 Lead actionscripters. (obviously I am one)
(numbers will be higher if lots of quality people are interested)

Lead peaople are the core of the team, but everyone will be fully credited etc.
Issues of payment are discussed in the validus forum. (see below)

So, if you want to join or just want to know more, go to the VALIDUS FORUMS:

http://www.lazy-nation.com/validusforum

This is a new forum I have created recently for the sole purpose of helping the collab team work effeciently. It is linked in the demo when you press "story mode", so hopefully a decent team will assemble to help out with the collab.

Sign up and apply!

Questions here if you want, but if you re going to join I would prefer if you asked them in the forum so I could get a FAQ going.
I'll be making more forums topics when the demo is released.

Questions?

With all due respect, and in the interest of the closure you mentioned - how much did the artists who helped you realize your vision ultimately get paid?

I ended up doing it all myself.

Phacker, I did indeed get my moneys worth but would prefer not to mention it here, considering this thread is currently the first google result for project validus.

After I do a few more games I'll be able to better judge how much they are worth and offer flat rates instead of percentages for the more cautious animators.

Your pay formula seems a bit arbitrary and nebulous to me, but good luck to ya!

does it? :O

What method would you suggest?

does it? :O

Well yah, if arbitrary still means discretionary and nebulous still means vague.

It could be at the very least improved by leaning towards some of the first comments on the site, that is...how much gets produced...and less about subjective picking and choosing of who's worth what. You could be a divine judge of work ethic and character but if the point is to attract people to the project it's an uphill battle for people to trust that judgement.

Even people that want to hone their skills "for the fun of it" and have a passion for their particular field don't want to risk doing all that work for a project only to have a poor 'value' placed on their work, monetary or otherwise. Even if they didn't care about getting a single cent, the fact that a money system is in place and nothing got allocated to them says something that they don't want to hear.

You don't need to micromanage necessarily down to teeny units of productiveness but perhaps another answer is a clear delineation of what camp people are in. Have a group of "infinites" that can walk in off the street and add to your project, with a full understanding that they can receive some sort of "special thanks" mass assemblage credit at the most...and have a separate army of people that are enlisting, presumably with a higher skillset, and as a result they get a percentage of whatever money the project might bring in, and as individuals and groups (it doesn't sound like you intend for their to be a ton of permanents) they can sit and negotiate with you what's fair and what there's a budget for. If you're at the helm of all this, how you appropriate the funds is a strategic decision you'll have to make on the potential success of the venture.

That's one consideration, I think.

Have a group of "infinites" that can walk in off the street and add to your project, with a full understanding that they can receive some sort of "special thanks" mass assemblage credit at the most...and have a separate army of people that are enlisting, presumably with a higher skillset, and as a result they get a percentage of whatever money the project might bring in, and as individuals and groups (it doesn't sound like you intend for their to be a ton of permanents) they can sit and negotiate with you what's fair and what there's a budget for.

That's one consideration, I think.

You pretty much just described the system.

- There are already "infinites" - everyone who joins and doesn't get a lead spot. The seperate army you are talking about is the group of lead people in each category.
-As to negotiation, read my last words in the payment topic:
"The deciding of who did 'more' and 'better' work amoungst each group will be fairly democratic. I'll play fair, don't worry."

yeah, ok. :/
I guess i'll go update the payment topic and make it a little clearer.

There are already "infinites" - everyone who joins and doesn't get a lead spot.

So once all your "lead spots" are taken, what's the motivation for anyone else to contribute, given that you've already said: 1) there are a limited number of lead spots, and 2) non-leads won't get paid? I applaud your intent to pay your main contributors, but I wonder how many people will jump in and contribute expecting more than a credit, only to be disappointed later.

"The deciding of who did 'more' and 'better' work amoungst each group will be fairly democratic. I'll play fair, don't worry."

I have no reason to believe this isn't said sincerely, but if you knew just how frequently these kind of phrases get tossed around, well...

I wonder how many people will jump in and contribute expecting more than a credit, only to be disappointed later.

If there are a lot of good people joining and contributing pay-worthy material, and I quote: "[lead position] numbers will be higher if lots of quality people are interested"

I have no reason to believe this isn't said sincerely, but if you knew just how frequently these kind of phrases get tossed around, well...

Well it will be released in chapters, so that relieves some of the horrors of getting screwed over on a massive project.
Plus if I did screw you over, you wouldn't want to work on the next chapter, you would probably spread dissent throught the internet towards me and you could possibly sue me, depending on what I did.
I really see no upside in screwing people over. If it was a one-off, then you would have less assurance of my integrity, but a series is a lot safer.

If there are a lot of good people joining and contributing pay-worthy material, and I quote: "[lead position] numbers will be higher if lots of quality people are interested"

Well it will be released in chapters, so that relieves some of the horrors of getting screwed over on a massive project.
Plus if I did screw you over, you wouldn't want to work on the next chapter, you would probably spread dissent throught the internet towards me and you could possibly sue me, depending on what I did.
I really see no upside in screwing people over. If it was a one-off, then you would have less assurance of my integrity, but a series is a lot safer.

Well screw enough folks over inch by inch and you get your project done for free.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Well screw enough folks over inch by inch and you get your project done for free.

So i guess i'll need to pay a few people and get some testimonials to my honesty. Would that help?

A well drafted contract with equitable renumeration would be even better.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

-As to negotiation, read my last words in the payment topic:
"The deciding of who did 'more' and 'better' work amoungst each group will be fairly democratic. I'll play fair, don't worry."

yeah, ok. :/
I guess i'll go update the payment topic and make it a little clearer.

I did read it, otherwise I wouldn't have said anything, but read what I said...it doesn't matter what wonderful choices you are capable of making because either no one will believe you're capable of them, or more likely they'll doubt any decision is the right one unless they feel they receive appropriate benefit from it. Basically, it's empty to say 'I'll play fair' because they'll go into it with the mentality of 'No, you won't' in order to protect themselves. From secondhand experience seeing these things try to come together people like to call bullshit on completely subjective authority, and regardless of what's in your mind at this point that could be how many people see it painted right now.

people like to call bullshit on completely subjective authority.

Yes indeed they do, which is precisely why there needs to be arbitration involved in the first place.
If you can see a convenient way to circumvent human nature please let me know.

Yes indeed they do, which is precisely why there needs to be arbitration involved in the first place.
If you can see a convenient way to circumvent human nature please let me know.

By embracing it. It looks like you're answering your own question to me. Your guidelines are soft now, so make 'em hard, get people to agree on something or tell them how it is. Don't appear to leave it to whimsy. People also are more likely take steps when the ground they're supposed to walk on seem secure, but until you have some unmoving or universal consensus it's sort of like "Hey, who wants to run across these raked over leaves? I promise it's not a ten foot deep pit covered by a trap."

What do I know, though? I'm just combing over things to think about.

Hmmm. That could be difficult, scince I don't know what percentage of it I'll be doing or the total percentage of art vs music vs animation etc...

or how much the thing will be worth when complete.

:(

Once I get the demo sponsored / sell some hosting rights I'll have a better idea, but it still leaves me with the first problem.

CURSE YOU HUMAN NATURE CURSE YOU

Hi Chris, and welcome to the AWN Forums.

I think it's great that you are willing to pay people for their work on this project. There are so many people that come here and ask for work to be done for free, so that's why most of use are alittle wary of these kind of requests. We're just looking out for each other.

I don't have any time to take on freelance, but I just wanted to get a few things squared away that I'm not to clear on.

1) You don't have money now, but are hoping to sell this game, and when that happens then you will pay people. So untill you sell the game, people are working for free?

2) It won't be till the project is completed that you will know who are leads, getting paid, and who are just helping for free?

2a) So people are going to be working and not knowing weather they will get paid or not?

Those are my main questions for now. Like I said, I applaud you for wanting to pay your artists, so don't take my questions the wrong way. I also know it's hard to get a project done to sell it, but still need money to make it. You know the whole chicken and egg thing.

Also, what type of program are you using to animate, or is this traditional? It looks like Flash to me.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

Whatever you don't know, -decide-. Having a plan helps things get accomplished. Winging it either rests at a standstill or turns out pieces of crap.

It doesn't matter how much your project is worth in the end; that's the whole point of percentages. Whatever it is, the creatives get such and such a portion as it might represent this-and-this part of the whole. Unless you're looking to see if hey, maybe it makes tons of money, and then announce you get a 90% creator fee ;)

It sounds like some stuff needs to be nailed down before you get too far ahead of yourself. Human nature has very little to do with it except trying to find a balance between the big picture and what things are like in the moment. It sounds like you have to figure out what you're doing project-organization-wise before you figure out how people are doing it.

Incidentally I like the all-silhouette pan with the zombie-posed people at the beginning. :)

Well I've been working hard on the demo, it has improved a LOT. Started exporting some 3d for map sprites for added glory.
It has gone further than I intended the demo to go, but yeah, it's all good :)

1) You don't have money now, but are hoping to sell this game, and when that happens then you will pay people. So untill you sell the game, people are working for free?

Yep. I have exactly 0 capital for this and also approx. 0 in my bank account.
I didn't really start this with money in mind anyway, it was just the logical conclusion of me learning actionscript. (btw this is my first game)

2) It won't be till the project is completed that you will know who are leads, getting paid, and who are just helping for free?

Nah it would become obvious who had lead positions pretty early in production, after that no one else would be allowed to join. If someone did a reasonable amount of work they would get money.

I also know it's hard to get a project done to sell it, but still need money to make it. You know the whole chicken and egg thing.

yes. :/
But because it is a flash game I figured that I could find some animators willing to help, scince 90% of flash animations get no money for thier authors anyway. Even when they do get paid it is often a total ripoff, such as the 'animator vs animation' guy. I guess that isn't really true with these forums though.

Also, what type of program are you using to animate, or is this traditional? It looks like Flash to me.

Yeah all the animation is flash so far, some of the in-game still objects are from photoshop or 3dsmax.

Whatever you don't know, -decide-. Having a plan helps things get accomplished. Winging it either rests at a standstill or turns out pieces of crap.
It doesn't matter how much your project is worth in the end; that's the whole point of percentages. Whatever it is, the creatives get such and such a portion as it might represent this-and-this part of the whole. Unless you're looking to see if hey, maybe it makes tons of money, and then announce you get a 90% creator fee

I don't have enough experience to decide.
I don't know how much flash animation is worth, I don't know how much my code is worth, I don't know how much my plot and gamedesign will be worth. I don't know the pricerange for flash games, I don't know how large the first chapter of the game will be and I don't know the demand for good flash animators. I can't just "-decide-" these thing I don't know.

I will not decide until I know more, releasing the demo should give me some indication of value.

At the moment I'm thinking I would be better off just making it myself.

Legally you would be safer doing it yourself.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

I don't have enough experience to decide.
I don't know how much flash animation is worth, I don't know how much my code is worth, I don't know how much my plot and gamedesign will be worth. I don't know the pricerange for flash games, I don't know how large the first chapter of the game will be and I don't know the demand for good flash animators.
I will not decide until I know more, releasing the demo should give me some indication of value.

At the moment I'm thinking I would be better off just making it myself.

Well you have the entire internet and creator forums available to you, and it appears you've made a nice checklist for you to figure out.
Good luck on your project, getting something like this off the ground can be difficult when funds are nebulous at best.

Regarding what I said earlier, the point isn't to make things set in stone. The point is to having something exist that can be worked with.

At least you're not rushing into anything, and it sounds like you're taking things reasonably seriously. Again, none of what I was saying is hardline anyhow, just what I personally would do, but I'm the farthest thing from your position so do keep that in mind =)

But because it is a flash game I figured that I could find some animators willing to help, scince 90% of flash animations get no money for thier authors anyway. Even when they do get paid it is often a total ripoff, such as the 'animator vs animation' guy. I guess that isn't really true with these forums though.

Most serious freelancers have learned that empty promises of payment should a project sell are just that empty promises. Flash animators may design and put their work out there for view for free, but that's is for acknowledgement of their skills. For you to ask someone to contribute for free is asking for the moon. You own the concept they own nothing. If they choose to put their work out on the internet, that's their choice.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Most serious freelancers have learned that empty promises of payment should a project sell are just that empty promises. Flash animators may design and put their work out there for view for free, but that's is for acknowledgement of their skills. For you to ask someone to contribute for free is asking for the moon. You own the concept they own nothing. If they choose to put their work out on the internet, that's their choice.

I'm not asking anyone to do anything for free, and I interpret what you said as you calling me a liar, you must have been seriously burned in the past or something.

This project will definatly sell, no question about that. Mo from mofunzone said "I'll pay more than anyone" <-- direct quote.

This game will be getting millions of views even if it were half as good as it is.
AND IT'S ONLY THE DEMO

I think your being a bit over sensitive, I didn't read that as him calling you a liar. a liar is someone who has been proven to relay false information based on overwhelming evidence.
When a doctor looks at your symptoms, he gives you an assuption of what you might have based on personal experiance and education.
Thats bascially what Phacker was implying. And I agree with him. I've been a prof. freelance illustrator for over 15 years and I hear alot of stories. Well intentioned at best, a dream for the creator has to be believed in with all the fire they can muster, and when someone like Phacker or myself see through
past experiance glasses, and mention what our pespective is, the creative such as yourself flares up in defense. Its normal. I think earlier in the thread you were handling it well. But as more come to light, and everyone is not as gung-ho as you are, it rattles your cage to think that maybe, just maybe it might be beyond you to finish this project at this time.

I'm not asking anyone to do anything for free

Yeah, you kinda are. From your forum on the game:

"[I]Not everyone will be paid, only those who contribute a decent amount.
[/I]
[I]Voice actors will not be paid, unless they are REALLY good and play major roles...

Beta testers will not be paid..."[/I]

Aside from this, any time you ask someone to provide you work before you pay them, you're asking them to work for free. In this business, once work is delivered, the impetus to pay is dramatically reduced. As I've said before, I have no reason to doubt your sincerity about wanting to pay people (except for those listed above). However, these kind of "I'll pay you when the project makes money" promises float around all the time - can you really blame people for being skeptical, especially given your inability to define just what makes a "lead" person or what percentage of the revenues will be set aside for compensating the art staff?

This project will definatly sell, no question about that. Mo from mofunzone said "I'll pay more than anyone" <-- direct quote.

Actually, this is far from assured. It's easy to say "I'll pay" when there's nothing to actually pay for. Those are only words until the game becomes a reality. I admire your enthusiasm, but frankly your game selling is, at this point, far from a certainty, and you shouldn't be surprised at people's skepticism.

I don't understand how what Phacker said can be interpreted as calling you a liar. He's stating facts from his perspective - it only reflects on you if you ultimately reinforce his point of view.

I applaud your enthusiasm for your project and your obvious strong belief in it's ultimate success - and I wish it for you. It's going to be tough to get experienced artists to contribute until you bite the bullet and firm up some of what you intend to do to compensate them for their work.

Hello everyone! I just joined AWN forums and I want to be a part of the beta tester and actionscripters. Another friend in AWN forums notified me about this project but he did not have the time to post to ask for these positions. We are very interested in joining. We two 16 year olds currently have about 8-10 years of gaming experience and also interested in Digital Animation. We also have some skills in game film type movie making. Here's the username of my friend : gamecon_90(Roughly or so). Please accept us to the team!

Wow, I wish I'd been in the industry at age 6.

Marksman, this is the wrong place to apply for the team. Go to the link provided on the first page of this thread and post your information there.

I have been burned in the past. And new Flash designers will be burned in the future if people like you are allowed to suck innoncent new talent into your schemes.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Yea, I already did. Thanks for informing anyway.

if people like you are allowed to suck innoncent new talent into your schemes.

Why you gotta be such a fuck? I've never cheated anyone in my life, so if you arn't interested in helping me out with graphics you can shut up and stop being such a pessimist.

Anyway, I finished it a while back and sold it.
http://www.mofunzone.com/online_games/project_validus_survival.shtml

Just thought this topic needed closure.
I'm still gonna make story mode at some point, but i'm gonna do some other games in the meantime.

Anyway, I finished it a while back and sold it.
Just thought this topic needed closure.

With all due respect, and in the interest of the closure you mentioned - how much did the artists who helped you realize your vision ultimately get paid?

I'd be interested in that figure as well since you said you sold it.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

After downloading the game, which I shouldn't have spent my time on, I'd say you probably got your money's worth.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

I've been making a demo for quite some time, title: Project Validus.

Check it out here:
http://www.lazy-nation.com/features/ProjectValidus.html

The demo is only survival mode, and I need help making story mode!

Survival mode is only a fraction as glorious as Story Mode will be. You'll control 6 different characters thorugh the main city, each with thier own plots.
As you play it reveals more of the main plot.
The game will be released in chapters, to avoid making to project into a huge unfinishable chunk.
(see forum link below for more info)

Anyway, Project Validus will need:
(me not included)

3 or 4 Lead artists - and infinite regular artists

4 or 5 Lead animators - and infinite regular animators

1 or 2 Lead musicians - and a few regular musicians

4- 5 Lead voice actors - and 10 -20 regular voice actors

5 - INFINITE BETA TESTERS - we'll need a lot of these.

0 - 2 Lead actionscripters. (obviously I am one)
(numbers will be higher if lots of quality people are interested)

Lead peaople are the core of the team, but everyone will be fully credited etc.
Issues of payment are discussed in the validus forum. (see below)

So, if you want to join or just want to know more, go to the VALIDUS FORUMS:

http://www.lazy-nation.com/validusforum

This is a new forum I have created recently for the sole purpose of helping the collab team work effeciently. It is linked in the demo when you press "story mode", so hopefully a decent team will assemble to help out with the collab.

Sign up and apply!

Questions here if you want, but if you re going to join I would prefer if you asked them in the forum so I could get a FAQ going.
I'll be making more forums topics when the demo is released.

Questions?

You need voices? I can do many. How do I sign up?

Welcome to the AWN Forums JDK.

Please check the initial post date. It was posted almost 3 years ago and the last post was over 2 years ago and he said he finished the project already. This isn't just for you JDK. This goes out to everyone. This happens semi frequently.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."