(Flash)How many fps do you use

I've been skipping this thread because I thought I already know what I need to know, but that's not quite true usually...

I animate in Toon Boom Studio, mainly for the web at this point, but I like to be able to put it on tape if I want. I use either 15 or 30, but Ape, you're saying you can't go 2's at 30 fps?

Am I going to be better off at 24fps? I bet so, but what do I do when I want to put it on tape? Can I just run it through QT Pro or Premiere?

Sorry, total brain fart. You can put 30fps on two's, but you can't break it down in halves evenly. 15 is half of 30 but what frame is your breakdown between 1 and 15 going to be? Thats just how I think, Golden poses, Keys, Breakdowns, Inbetweens. Animate hhow ever you feel comfortable, but I don't know any of the major studios that animate at 30 fps.

I assemble my demo reel in Premiere, and I have scenes on there that are 18, 24 and 30 fps. I export them as uncompressed avi's then assemble them in Premiere, and through some dark magic it comes out alright.

Besides, if Fash is complaining about animating 12 more frames a second going to 24, I don't think he's going to want to animate 18 more. :D

Aloha,
the Ape

WOW, how old are you?

:D

....so one day I was having lunch with Edison and Mackay. I kept arguing, "16! 24? I don't want to draw that much!".....;)

I animate in Toon Boom Studio, mainly for the web at this point, but I like to be able to put it on tape if I want. I use either 15 or 30, but Ape, you're saying you can't go 2's at 30 fps?

Am I going to be better off at 24fps? I bet so, but what do I do when I want to put it on tape? Can I just run it through QT Pro or Premiere?

You can shoot on 2's at 30 fps, but it doesn't work out evenly per second. 30 fps on 2's comes out to 15 drawings per second, except the last drawing slops over into the next second. There's also the breakdown issue that Ape mentions. Plus, who wants to draw a minimum of 3 and a max of 6 more drawings, just to get to a second?

Going to video with a 24 fps project is no big deal. You'll do a 3:2 pulldown in Premiere and it'll time things out appropriately. Sometimes it happens automatically; I had a 15 fps clip that I put on a demo reel, and I just dropped it into Final Cut Pro and it worked. Ain't technology grand? :D

I use 15 fps (for no particular reason, except that it's smoother than Flash's default 12 fps). Glad I'm not the only one...

So I've taken the challenge and have started a little practice piece at 24 fps.

I have an animated run cycle in it where a guy is running away at an angle. So far I have four drawings and it looks okay. Are run cycles best on ones or twos? Geez, I guess this shows my lazy approach--"can I avoid a measly four more drawings?":o

I agree with ape. 24 fps is my preference. Has worked well for almost 100 years with no complaints.

WOW, how old are you?

:D

Other rates seem to exist to accomodate technology rather than persistance of vision. That said I have worked in 15 fps and 10 fps at studio's request.

I agree. The 15fps rate is set up for output to video, which is why I use it. But I also work in 12fps and 24fps.

So I've taken the challenge and have started a little practice piece at 24 fps.

I have an animated run cycle in it where a guy is running away at an angle. So far I have four drawings and it looks okay. Are run cycles best on ones or twos? Geez, I guess this shows my lazy approach--"can I avoid a measly four more drawings?":o

I think they're better on 1's because the motion will be smoother.

Now I have a question of my own. For those of you who have animated in 25fps for PAL format, how do you work on 2's since it can't divide evenly? Do you still work at 24fps?

Thanks!

Turned out it was easier than I thought. I'm animating right into Toon Boom, which lets me steal parts of other frames, like feet, torso, etc. So it already got done since I sniveled about doing four whole drawings more.

Still have to work out some foot slide issues and do a bit more cleanup, but off to a start I feel okay about.

http://www.cartoonthunder.com/various/soldierTest01.swf

And it turns out he's got a humpback:cool:

So I've taken the challenge and have started a little practice piece at 24 fps.

I have an animated run cycle in it where a guy is running away at an angle. So far I have four drawings and it looks okay. Are run cycles best on ones or twos? Geez, I guess this shows my lazy approach--"can I avoid a measly four more drawings?":o

That's cool that you're trying it out Rupert. It depends on how fast the guy is running. If it's a jog, you could probably get away with it beeing on twos. If it's an all out sprint, it should be on ones.

Aloha,
the Ape

Hey, if he's a smoker you could be working on 1s, 2s, and the last 10 frames could be with him face down in the mud. Timing and pacing have to be worked into the formula.

I agree with ape. 24 fps is my preference. Has worked well for almost 100 years with no complaints. 12 fps is like 2s @ 24 fps but screws up when you need a fast movement like smear or blur, etc. Other rates seem to exist to accomodate technology rather than persistance of vision.
That said I have worked in 15 fps and 10 fps at studio's request.

Oh, and just incase people get confused, thats 12fps on ones = 24fps on twos.

That said I have worked in 15 fps and 10 fps at studio's request.

Same here.

Aloha,
the Ape

Me too....

:D
Pat, that's one of the funniest things I've seen all week. And this is pretty much the end of the week.

"Better" would depend on the context. If your aim is to be as descriptive and fluid as possible, and be able to capture the slightest and fastest of actions, 24 drawings a second would be more conducive to that. If you don't have a special reason and are just doing tests you should be fine to stick to 12 as long as you're aware of how many drawings you'll need for the movements after you've timed them out.

12 fps is the equivalent to working on 2's. The problem there is that you're locked into doing 2's, and if an action requires animating on 1's, you're hosed.

Switch to 24 fps, and hold each drawing for 2 frames. It's a small amount of extra work to hold each drawing for 2 frames, but it'll give you the flexibility to go to 1's if you have a fast or intricate action. It's all about the flexibility...

Whoops, sorry, didn't even notice you had mentioned Flash (aside from the fact that it occurs twice in your post....=)

Generally speaking, 12 fps is used for web animation, 24 fps is used for film, and 30 fps is used for TV/video.

24/25 very rarely 30.

I'd agree with the suggestion to work in 24; then you have flexibility to animate on 2's if you want. But you should try some tests and experiment with what works for you. (could be that the style you're after is served better by one rate or another). But it's a good Flash "Best Practice" to make decisions like frame rate before you begin a major project.

Whatever frame rate you settle on, be aware that it won't be easy to change your mind after you've started; especially if you've got lip syncing (or any action timed to music cues). If you change your fps in Flash, your sound will suddenly fall in different places on your timeline.

Switch to 24 fps, and hold each drawing for 2 frames. It's a small amount of extra work to hold each drawing for 2 frames, but it'll give you the flexibility to go to 1's if you have a fast or intricate action. It's all about the flexibility...

I'm hoping the next version of Flash deals with that. It would be a lot faster working to hold each drawing at 2 frames by default and then change it to 1's when necessary.

My work is strictly web work so I use 12. If I was going big time film conversion, I think I'd switch to 24.

I use from 24 to 30 fps (Depending on the project).

It helps keep the animation running smoothly (Especially on the web).

24/25 very rarely 30.

30 fps isn't necessarily rarely used. It's just that some studios/animators choose to do 24 fps for NTSC TV output because it's less frames to animate.

A good rule of thumb is to animate according to your highest output/distribution level. It's always easier to convert to a lower setting than it is to convert to a higher one.

Like mostly everyone else said here, 24 give you more flexablitly. If you're going to want to do fast actions in 12fps you're going to have to use cheats, like zips, blurs, and smears. I don't really like 30fps. It's harder to get used to the timing, and you can't put 30 frames on 2's. I just think 12 fps on ones 24 fps on twos.

Aloha,
the Ape