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Is anime killing a new generation's view of animation?

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I think many of today's productions are much too hastily told and that we need to learn how to slow down and get away from that video clip style-cutting and intercutting again.

That was the biggest problem with The Black Cauldron. I thought it was a great movie, really stoked by the end of it. But it sucked how as soon as you got somewhere in the film you off and somewhere else before you knew what happened! I understand that it was based on a fantasy series of books, so maybe they just tried to cram everything into too short of an experience.

I check Wikipedia to get my facts strait on Tom & Jerry regarding another thread, and I see this promotional image for a new T&J series:

I've completed three college courses of Japanese language and was a solid B++ kinda' student and met some really cool exchange students. I love Godzilla movies. I am not anti-Japanese! :rolleyes:

That said, I'm a little burnt-out on the everything Japanese craziness going on State-side. I can agree that understanding and appreciating other cultures is a healthy thing, but what exactly is goin' on around here? It's not even cultural appropriation, but more like pop-cultural appropriation and it's becoming really shallow and tedious is you ask me.

I think we're turning Japanese. I really think so!

I hate it when people say this, but here I am saying it. You may be a little young to remember, but....

In the '80's, the world had gone Japanese crazy. But not just any Japanese crazy, Japanese stereotype crazy. Hundreds of ninja movies were made a year. There was a ninja tv series for a while. Transformers hit and they hit hard, with mobs of parents trying to buy the things before Christmas. Nintendo rocked our world. Movies like Gung Ho, although comedies, threatened a cultural invasion. People like Chuck Norris (sure he started in the '70's but really got big in the '80's) seemed exotic as they'd been to the orient and came back with something.

Reliving Vietnam was HUGE! Dozens of movies, some of them very good, and a couple of tv shows were released, you couldn't get away from it (think the WWII movie/reliving craze from Saving Private Ryan a while ago but it lasted for a decade).

And the Japanese were American crazy, too. Rock and roll, blue jeans, cheap beer, they bought it by the millions. Owning realestate in the US was a huge status symbol. They bought up America and its culture like there was no tomorrow.

Everyone was giddy with the excitement, the fear and craziness of it all.

Then suddenly, the Wall came down, the Reds didn't seem so scary, we started listening to Pearl Jam and watching movies like The Crow. We forgot about Japan for a little bit. But Japan didn't forget about us, they sat quietly developing their most diabolical scheme yet.... the collectible card game and the animation to sell it! Pokemon, DigiMon, Card Captors, Yu-gi-oh, they got us where we were most vulnerable, through our kids and their insatiable desire to buy anything that they see enough of on Saturday morning and after school (same way Disney gets so many people to see their movies and make DVD releases even more profitable even if they are stinkers).

The point is, it's happened before, it'll happen again. It does indeed go both ways. We've been very closely tied to Japan since WWII and I for one think we are both better off for it.

And commenting on an earlier theread, I've been trying to learn Japanese on and off for the past year or so (with little success) so I can watch the original anime without the dumbass Dawson or other flavor of the month reading in for the characters (and not have to read along). Can you guys recommend a good book or learning material?

Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
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If there were How To Draw Western Animation books or "American Animation Outlet" chains in the mall, then I could swallow some of the tired rhetoric on this thread.

Anime has this inexplicable power to create vast legions of fanatics, and I mean FANATICS. Visit a local anime club and check it out. The fanaticism revolves around not "the anime" itself, but "Anime." It's not the same, man. There's some corrupt force underlying it's basis. I try in vain to put my finger on exactly what it is... but it's there.

I know these people, and they act like freaks. They are practically unparalleled. Superhero fans are somewhat similar, but not even close. I literally watched my best friend descend from more-or-less adjusted to all-out anime junky. All his money goes towards anime and videogames. SERIOUSLY. And it's unlike anything I've ever seen outside of meth addicts, and I'm not joking.

I concur that anime IS indeed killing a new generation's view of animation, but there is another, greater menace: Adult Swim. Adult Swim is an abyss. There are about five or so people actually credited as "animators" on Aqua Teen Hunger Force. It's sick, man, SICK!! Not that the giggling, filthy masses ever had any respect for animation to kill in the first place.

I've said it before: anime is some scary bullshit. It's the mechanism of a sweeping, mass-conscienceness, mob-mentality.

Just don't bag on Yoog or I'll have to DIMENSION THE DICE, suckers.

It's no more scary than Trekkies, and LTR groups. Some folks just need to feel wanted.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

How is cartoon animated in India about a masked mexican wrestling school anime? I'm done with this so I'm just goofing around now :p :p

(Sputtering) But we were talking about specific generalizations, accusations and assumptions and then he was talking about toons on the WB then i was talking about... and he.. and then.... (More sputtering and heavy breathing)

OOOOOH, You're pushing my buttons, Roger!

Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com

Now with more doodling!
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Step 1: set up Straw Man.
Step 2: knock down Straw Man.

Please explain how that quote is a straw man.

Let's see...

Miyazaki is overrated,
Thumbelina is not bad
Ripping Friends should still be on TV...

The Sajdera picture is coming into focus...

...

Whatever that's supposed to mean.

I'll say this, though. I find it interesting that the Don Bluths and John K.s are given a disproportionate amount of nit-picking, scrutiny and outright flippant denunciation, while Miyazaki is put on this golden pedestal unquestioned. I fail to see what's so special - nay, immaculate - about these "Studio Ghibli" animated films. I've heard it refered to as "Disney East," and I'm like, what?

One of the things that really sucked about Mononoke was the "village of women." I don't know, but I'm serious tired of contrived bullshit like that. Everything in those movies is like that. Also, there's no reason to care about any of the characters. They have no personality! It's just assumed that you care about them (I mean, you wouldn't be watching the movie if you didn't, right?!) and the events just keep happening but it means practically nothing.

Now, Mrs. Brisby was one fleshed out character. Charlie and Marie were really genuine characters. Princess Mononoke? She was flat, predictable, average, seen-this-before-a-million-times. Even Anastasia was likable and quirky to some degree. What about the kid from Spirited Away? At the end of the movie I couldn't tell why I had just watched her blank, vapid face bumble about in wonderland for a hour and a half, her beady eyes staring ever empty upon a mish-mash of nonsensical happenings. Nothing changes, it just keeps going like paint drying on a wall.

It's been a while, but I remember not being particularly flabbergasted by the animation, either. Seemed pretty run-of-the-mill theatrical anime, to me. Now, Steam Boy is different. The animation in Steam Boy, particularly in the faces and movements of the boy and girl, were impressive to me. Studio Ghibli doesn't stand up to that, nor to Secret Of N.I.M.H.. Studio Ghibli does not shit golden turds, turds they may well be.

As for Ripping Friends, I see it very much like Primus. Bass Player magazine regular snipes at Les Claypool for being "sloppy." They kiss Jaco Pastorius' ass like he was Jesus Christ. Now, Jaco was an amazing bass player, just watching him diddle around with progressions is inspiring. But, Weather Report, is in my opinion, totally boring music. But nevermind that Les Claypool makes music that you'd actually want to listen to, that you might tap your toe to, he's sloppy and therefore: sucks. Kricfalusi is the Claypool of animation, and you can bet that when they're dead, all the critics will sing their praises and chrinicle their "legacies." Sick bastards.

But that's just my know-nothing "picture coming into focus," so make of it what you will. You think Ripping Friends was "awful," and think Miyazaki makes good movies. Look's like the DSB picture is coming into focus.

On a mere "technical" level, Bluth's animation is excellent *cough rotoscope cough* but it seems to me that it lacks soul and feeling. But that's just my opinion. Miyazaki's animation, on the other hand, is lifelike as well, in this case without the benefit of rotoscope, but it can sometimes be jerky.

Oh, they do rotoscope at Studio Ghibli from time to time, make no mistake! I agree, however, that Don Bluth's fixation on it as a means of "realistically" animating human characters isn't always too convinicing. Still, he's proven that he doesn't have to rely completely on the technique, and none of his films including rotoscoping are nearly as ridiculous as Bakshi's LoTR which, at least to me, is a traced live-action movie. (And rather amateurly shot in certain scenes. *coughbalrogcough*)
To state Bluth lacks soul and feeling is a huge misconception, I can't put it any gentler. His style is broader and cartoonier whereas Ghibli pays close attention to the subtler aspects of human behaviour - too subtle in places, because let's face it, it wouldn't have made too much of a difference if some of their movies had been live action features in the first place. Take Grave Of The Fireflies. Nothing about its acting animation really 'justifies' its being animated. To me animation isn't about cloning reality, it's about mirroring it in a way that distorts what's on the outside to reveal the inside doubly clear.

That was the biggest problem with The Black Cauldron. I thought it was a great movie, really stoked by the end of it. But it sucked how as soon as you got somewhere in the film you off and somewhere else before you knew what happened! I understand that it was based on a fantasy series of books, so maybe they just tried to cram everything into too short of an experience.

That never struck me as a particular Black Cauldron problem but you may have a point. I've got gripes with the characters, especially Gurgi. It's true, though, that elements like the Horned King and his rising zombie hordes were a nice change from the usual Disney fluff.
I think the Prydain Chronicles can't really be blamed for Disney's The Black Cauldron. (Its shortcomings, that is.) The movie is about as faithful to them as Disney's Jungle Book is to Rudyard Kipling's work, minus a fat lot of sheer character appeal. You should read those books; Lloyd Alexander has a way of writing stories which, in spite of their fantastic elemenst, are believably down-to-earth and good-naturedly play with fantasy clichées of chosen heroes and their destinies.

They have to give into the tide and maybe it this thread last long enough the counter will roll over. :D

then by all means, keep the posts coming

I think this whole "for or against" anime BS is moot.

Those aspiring talents that hope to get into the western animation industry will have a bit of a rude awakening when they try to seek employment and discover the studio styles are anything BUT anime here.

It'll boil down, as always, to those talents with the raw ability to adapt to change and whom have a range of styles to start off with.

The people would still lead the projects in these studios here, who still tend to sign the cheques mostly STILL come from a Disney/Warner Bros kind of background, if not exposure.

If there is one thing that anime "fans" have, it is this delusion that the anime styles will be the ones they will do professionally.

Adapt or suffer is what I say.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

But that's just my know-nothing "picture coming into focus," so make of it what you will. You think Ripping Friends was "awful," and think Miyazaki makes good movies. Look's like the DSB picture is coming into focus.

When, exactly, did I say that Miyazaki makes good movies? And when, exactly, did I say you were a know-nothing?

You want to know what I'm getting at? Here it is: you're a contrarian, but you're merely a knee-jerk contrarian. You dislike what "the masses" (whatever that means) like, but only because they like it. Conversely, you like what is not particularly popular for the same reasons.

You can't put together a cogent argument as to why you feel the way you do without making liberal use of profanity and scatalogical references, suggesting a lack of maturity. You're utterly predictable, while at the same time trying to prove that you "get it" where others don't.

BTW, "looks" doesn't use an apostrophe, because it's not the possessive form of "look."

those garbage shows on the WB and lame anime shows for kids.

they really are the stupidest plots and everything. I mean come on....fighting with cards....

Those shows are just horrible and their artistic style is nowhere near amazing.

But i mean....is this any worse or more garbagey than power rangers were?

Hmm, House-sized red dogs, a anthropomorphic undersea sponge wearing trousers, and assorted other themes are not equally "stupid"?

C'mon!

The only thing about this "anime" influence that is popping up is how its limited the visual repetoire of young aspiring artists into a narrow range of styles.
The western animation industry is a broad confluence of styles and any young artist hoping to work in the industry must be prepared to accept that.
I've seen far too many young people with sometimes otherwise decent drawing skills that cannot ( or will not) draw anything BUT anime/manga style material.

The secret to success and longevity in the western animation industry is an ability to adapt to a RANGE of styles. That has never changed and is not likely to either.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

I'd like to hear from some Japanese people whether all their animation looks the same to them, and whether the animated shows they import from the States look significantly different from each other (though they import far fewer shows from us than we import from them, and may not have an adequate sampling).

I'm looking at the animated shows on the Nick and CN websites - Spongebob, Danny Phantom, Oddparents, Rugrats, Dexter, Ed/Edd/Eddy, Gym Partner - and they all look very similar to me. Occasionally we have something that breaks with convention - Teacher's Pet - but so do the Japanese.

I'm looking at the animated shows on the Nick and CN websites - Spongebob, Danny Phantom, Oddparents, Rugrats, Dexter, Ed/Edd/Eddy, Gym Partner - and they all look very similar to me.

Danny Phantom, Oddparents, and Dexter do share a very similar design ethic. But Ed, Edd, and Eddy looks similar to these to you? Really? I mean, aside from the fact that they're all cartoons? Really?

Please explain how that quote is a straw man.

First off, I know it's a quote you provided Harv; the comment wasn't directed at you.

I guess it's more of an anti-strawman, as he sets up the comparison to make sure he wins, rather than making it easily refutable. The quote in question describes X as follows:

" X is a visual masterpiece in my opinion,the storyline is deep,beautiful and serene sometimes,but other times it is very tragic,and disturbing.
but never the less,it is a deep,passionate storyline."

He then goes on to compare X to Courage the Cowardly Dog, a kid's show. He doesn't compare a kid's show to a kid's show, and he doesn't compare X to anything remotely similar in western animation (although I'm having a hard time thinking of a western film that features "body-bursting gore", as one review describes X). He set up the example so that his pre-conceived conclusion would carry the day. At best, it's intellectually dishonest. It's like comparing "The Sopranos" to the "Teletubbies" and saying that "Teletubbies" comes up short by comparison.

I love it when people correct for proper use of language. Somewhere, RupertPiston is shedding a silent tear of appreciation =)

I like Anime, where you get four hours to tell a complete story (12, 22-min. episodes) or even eight.

America could never create I My Me (Strawberry Eggs) or Love Hina or Someday's Dreamers.

Stephen Silver designed on the first two, so I wouldn't say it's an originality issue. Especially seeing the other work he's done; if it were possible to have variation between those two shows he probably would've done it, being very capable.

Hey guys "Courage" isn't a "kids" show. I think you have to be over fifty to get the nuances of it, but then I transgress. But hey don't continue to view "Courage" as just a fly by night animation, it isn't.

The storylines and animation and art are not even to be considered close to the Teletubbies/Barney kiddy crap out there.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

America could never create I My Me (Strawberry Eggs) or Love Hina or Someday's Dreamers.

Half the world vs. one country? Oh wait, you mean the United States of America. From secondhand experience, never say things like that to Canadian border patrol. They're what you might call "sensitive"... ;)

Phacker, I wasn't trying to take anything away from "Courage". I love the original short, and I've seen several episodes of the show (although the one I always seem to catch is the one where the goose god has a crush on Muriel...).

My point was that it's audience isn't primarily adults, as the one for "X" appears to be. Therefore, the comparison between the two is invalid. That's where Tony Soprano and the Teletubbies came in. Anyone trying to compare the two shows would be laughed at, but pick two animated shows instead and suddenly it's O.K. to compare them? I don't buy it.

How 'bout this example instead? Which is better - "The Boondocks" or "Dora The Explorer"? :D

Phacker, I wasn't trying to take anything away from "Courage". I love the original short, and I've seen several episodes of the show (although the one I always seem to catch is the one where the goose god has a crush on Muriel...).

My point was that it's audience isn't primarily adults, as the one for "X" appears to be. Therefore, the comparison between the two is invalid. That's where Tony Soprano and the Teletubbies came in. Anyone trying to compare the two shows would be laughed at, but pick two animated shows instead and suddenly it's O.K. to compare them? I don't buy it.

How 'bout this example instead? Which is better - "The Boondocks" or "Dora The Explorer"? :D

I agree. That's probably my biggest complaint and criticism of westerners and animation. If it's animated it's suddenly considered only a kids show (the comparison that has been made is a great example of this attitude). Even if people say, "of course they're for two different groups! I get that," they still make the comparisons.

In Japan, there's manga and anime for practically everyone. From 2 year olds, to teen girls, to seriously demented pervs (which we have all those in live action form here, too). They, as a society, tend to have a much more open mind to the medium, even if in our eyes, "it all looks the same."

I hope that someday, the US (and the rest of the west), will grow up and realise that animation can be for all ages, which in turn means that not all animation will be suitable for all ages.

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Now with more doodling!
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Wow, you like anime more than I do, Saj. How could you have let yourself become so corrupted, you mindless herd-follower?

You question my appreciation/knowledge about Japanese animation and, when I make an effort to affirm that appreciation/knowledge, then disregard the actual point I'm trying to make and riff on a construed inconsistancy. You know better, so why gots to be like that?

Yes, diversity in animation is good but there's homogeneity in Western animation as well as in Eastern animation, yet you appeared to single out anime.

I very well know "eastern animation" is not homogeneous. "Anime" is incredibly homogeneous. It's part of it's twisted appeal, as far as I can tell. What's up with that?

I'm just happy there are people who are obsessed with animation. People spend much of their paycheck on animation? Hell, I've spent my ENTIRE LIFE on animation and illustration. Have I been corrupted?

People who devote their time and money to animation are fine, although I'm biased because I am one. However, that's not the case with anime freaks. They are not really dedicated to animation. Period. You can tell because they dismiss anything that isn't a part of their rediculous appropriation of Japanese popular culture, and that is the end all be all of their day to day life. Curiously, I've noted from personal experience that these same people think Adult Swim is hilarious. Figures.

Ripping Friends was an awful show when it was on the air, and I can't imagine it's gotten any better sitting around on DVD. Glad that you like it, but clearly you're in the minority, since it didn't pull the numbers to stay on the air.

I heard that John K. wasn't pleased with the finished RF product, actually. I don't see why, but then I'm not a master animator. I would be interested to know how this show is "awful." Maybe I have a different concept of "awful," that you do. Regardless, whether or not RF "pulled the numbers" is ultimately meaningless as far as artistry goes, so who cares except bean-pushing media jerks? Starry Night, anyone?

...

I find it interesting that the Don Bluths and John K.s are given a disproportionate amount of nit-picking, scrutiny and outright flippant denunciation, while Miyazaki is put on this golden pedestal unquestioned. I've heard it refered to as "Disney East," and I'm like, what?

I take it this means you like Disney. If this logic stands, why the hell don't you enjoy Miyazaki?! I'd take a hundred mononokes and howls' before another Emporer's New Groove. It stands as fact that Miyazaki makes great films for the family to watch, mononoke aside. This is where the Disney ref comes in, methinks.

...

One of the things that really sucked about Mononoke was the "village of women." I don't know, but I'm serious tired of contrived bullshit like that. Everything in those movies is like that. Also, there's no reason to care about any of the characters.

This is more about the culture divide than anything. If you knew anything about Japan you might feel differently. Especially because Miyazaki foregoes the overdone "samurai/shogun/epic political" period piece and invents his own gods and demons derived from Shinto. As to caring about the characters... this is a culture whose highest dishonor is cutting off their topknot. Ever study it? In a few words, why mononoke is a brilliant: The movie is about moving beyond the simplistic Aristolian dualist yes/no logic- and how it relates to man and his relationship with nature. And it's about a village of ex-prostitutes wielding firearms (an aspect I love, btw.)

...
At the end of [spirited away] I couldn't tell why I had just watched her blank, vapid face bumble about in wonderland for a hour and a half, her beady eyes staring ever empty upon a mish-mash of nonsensical happenings. Nothing changes, it just keeps going like paint drying on a wall.

At the beginning of the film, Chihiro is a whiny, spoiled, displaced child clinging to her mommy's leg because she's scared. At the end of the film she's an independant, freethinking youngun who's happy to see her parents again. I found that to be pretty clear.

We can certainly agree on Steamboy, that film was so so impressive. I don't see why it got so much crap from ppl.

I enjoyed ripping friends, as much as I enjoy all Kricfalusi. No nitpicker here, just a dude that loves him some Miyazaki. It is nice to hear someone against the grain, but I do get a hint of "counter-culture," in your qualms with Ghibli's work. I also find that for most males 18-34, they get thrown off by young, female protagonists.

In defense of animators

To get back on topic, and for the record, no. No, anime is not killing a new generation's view of animation.

Overblown, overhyped, over-budgeted 3-D features starring big names voicing anthropomorphic animals are killing this generation's view of animation.

Shows like Fullmetal Alchemist, Champluu, Ghost in the Shell:SAC- these shows are keeping the heart of 2-D alive for these pre-adolescents and young adults, whether you enjoy the shows or not. Not all anime are googly-eyed, slideshow nonsense. Just most of them.

FLCL, for one, is a masterpiece. It does more in 6 episodes than most American shows do in 6 seasons, both in terms of story structure and animation styles. It's also a great example of fine English translation and dubbing. Production I.G (Japan) has the most impressive studio output I've come across. Did you see Dead Leaves? Watch that and come back and tell me anime isn't the epitome of stylized 2-D. Did you see Innocence? Some of the best 3-D I've ever seen. Some of this animation is *awesome.*

If I judged Disney on the last 4 years of (2-D) releases and made it representative of American animation, I'd say America is in the tubes. But I don't, because I know there's more out there than Disney. So please, lay off the Pokemon (we all know it's crappy,) and I'll lay off The Lion King 2 1/2 (I think we all agree that it's crap.)

If you're going to attack a movement, do some diggin' and find out what the style is about; find the best it has to offer. Make sure there aren't hidden gems that rival the best work of your nation's industry, and indeed dwarf everything you've accomplished in animation up to this point. I ain't no goddamn fanboy, but I'll defend the hard work people put into some of the best animation in the world. As in, on the planet.

And yeah- if it's simply a matter of not liking the style, or not enjoying the character designs... There's no accounting for taste, and I respect your opinion. But please stop treating anime like country music. The animators deserve better.

Regardless, whether or not RF "pulled the numbers" is ultimately meaningless as far as artistry goes, so who cares except bean-pushing media jerks?

Well - you do, apparently:

That show kicks all manner of righteous ass, and look... not on the air. What's up with that?

It's called show business for a reason. The artistry is, and always has been, secondary. It doesn't matter how "artistic" a show is - if it doesn't have viewership, it's bye-bye. It's a reality of the business, and it's something more animation artists would do well to keep in mind. We're doing commercial art - art that comes with deadlines and someone besides the creator saying yes or no.

Personally, I think that John K's at his best when he's dealing with restrictions and notes from the network. The first season and a half or so of R&S was brilliant (when he was fighting with Nick almost constantly), and his subsequent work has never risen to the same level, let alone surpass it. Where he used to have to be clever to get something by the network or BS&P, now he's just juvenile.

DSB, thanks for the explanation.
The poster's name is "Majin Vegeta" which is a Dragon Ball reference.
My reason for including Majin's quote is described by kdiddy: Most of Western animation is targeted at either children or frat boys, but there is anime for all genders, ages, and sensibilities (provided the viewer doesn't have an antipathy for Japanese illustration).

Saj, that first paragraph of mine is just a joke. Since you view people who are more obsessed with anime than you as corrupted, I pretended to view you - who is more "obsessed" with anime than me - as corrupted. I know that you're aware that it's a joke. I'm just making sure that it's clear to everybody else.

I want to be the stand-up comedian who spends 80% of his act explaining his jokes to the audience.

That never struck me as a particular Black Cauldron problem but you may have a point. I've got gripes with the characters, especially Gurgi. It's true, though, that elements like the Horned King and his rising zombie hordes were a nice change from the usual Disney fluff.
I think the Prydain Chronicles can't really be blamed for Disney's The Black Cauldron. (Its shortcomings, that is.) The movie is about as faithful to them as Disney's Jungle Book is to Rudyard Kipling's work, minus a fat lot of sheer character appeal. You should read those books; Lloyd Alexander has a way of writing stories which, in spite of their fantastic elemenst, are believably down-to-earth and good-naturedly play with fantasy clichŽes of chosen heroes and their destinies.

I readily admit absolute ignorance of (I'm taking your word for it) Lloyd Alexander's novels, but there was something about the movie that suggested some kind of extreme abbreviation! I also was impressed that the Diznay COMPANY released such a movie (I think it's as old as me, in '83). To my knowledge, it was produced at a time when the company suffered a huge loss of personnel, and although I'm no animation historian, I've often figured this to coincide with the loss of Don Bluth and his cronies (correct me if I'm wrong). Much of the work on Black Cauldron was done by fresh faces (Tim Burton supposedly did some conceptual color models or something of the sort), so knowing that, it's all the more interesting and inspiring from a rookie point of view.

You want to know what I'm getting at? Here it is: you're a contrarian, but you're merely a knee-jerk contrarian. You dislike what "the masses" (whatever that means) like, but only because they like it. Conversely, you like what is not particularly popular for the same reasons.

You can't put together a cogent argument as to why you feel the way you do without making liberal use of profanity and scatalogical references, suggesting a lack of maturity. You're utterly predictable, while at the same time trying to prove that you "get it" where others don't.

Wow. I've never leveled such a pointed insult towards anybody on this board, so called "scatalogical humor" aside (which is always simply my own vain attempt at humor, really).

I'd like to address your accusation, and I will do so will the following exhibit. You would be kind to forgive it's weathered appearance, as it's been posted on my freezer for a few years, scorned by all who view it, and the newsprint has yellowed (you might also forgive the defacement, which was the result of LSD, for which I offer no apology).

Perhaps the meaning of this image, and particularly it's accompanying subtitle, will shed some manner of insight for you. Many of the things I like are popular, or more accurately, were popular. The Ren & Stimpy Show put Nickleodeon on the map, financially, and inspired an entire generation of animators. Where is Ren & Stimpy today? They're confused with CatDog for Christsake. I hope this highlights for you that what is deemed "popular" is determined by the fickle masses. What is or is not popular is ridiculous to me; utterly asinine.

most anime in my opinion is harder to understand for those away from its cultural perspective, while to some others it might attractive for the same reason.

i think there is plenty of alternative stuff to watch for anime to kill viewership but there is plenty inspiration im sure.

as for dreadful work, well there is dreadful work or unentertaining work but then there is also work that is dreadful coz there is no budget

I want to be the stand-up comedian who spends 80% of his act explaining his jokes to the audience.

No dice, the role of 'my father' is taken ;)

As Popeye might say:

I've saids what I said, an' I can't says it no more.

I respect you's guy's opinions, but I'm obviously far outside the norm.

Developments in Asian Animation.

Anime is not a new generation's view of animation. It's merely well appreciated by the younger generations. It also usually represents themes of rebellion and the hip culture.

I've seen a recent trailer of Kungfu Gecko developed by Egg Story. It's quite fascinating because it's set in the Chinese history context, but is developed by a VFX artist who has very American ideals.

Check it out at http://www.kungfugeckothemovie.com

Hmm, House-sized red dogs, a anthropomorphic undersea sponge wearing trousers, and assorted other themes are not equally "stupid"?

at least the sponge can move in a fluid motion.

"who wouldn't want to make stuff for me? I'm awesome." -Bloo

Okay, you guys are getting nasty...

Here's what I think. Bluth and Miyazaki are both amazing in their own ways.

Don Bluth gets a bad rap from professional animators because a lot of them simply don't like him. I've heard the whispered rantings and rumors of how he runs a studio and blah blah... we animators are a sensitive bunch. The fact stands that Don Bluth is one of the best draftsmen of all time. Sometimes I don't like his story pacing, but his films are technically fantastic.

Miyazaki is amazing, period. His storytelling style is beyond sophisticated, and his draftsmanship is beyond compare. Your sensation of boredom was talked about last night on TCM. They talked about how Hollywood would say "I'm going for popcorn! You're boring me!" Miyazaki takes his time to really get you knowing his characters. Miyazaki takes his time to immerse you in the worlds he creates. They talked about how rare that is in Hollywood, and thats a darn shame really. He achieves a pacing in his stories that isn't rushed to keep our attention. It feels realistic I think.

But of course, to each his own. To the Miyazaki bashers, I say to take a second look. To the Bluth bashers, lighten up.

To the anime bashers... It takes all kinds to make the world. There's good and there's bad in everything. Its fun to bash the bad stuff in forums like these, I agree, but keep that in perspective as you bash.

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Wow. I've never leveled such a pointed insult towards anybody on this board...

Call it an insult if you will; it's merely my observation based on your contributions to this and other threads here over the last few months. Take it however you wish.

The insight I get from the picture you shared is that one caption writer didn't do his research. Obviously it has a more insidious meaning to you. To each his own, but I think you're reading far too much into it.

FWIW, I enjoyed reading your response to Jabberwocky re: The Black Cauldron. Thoughtful, explanatory, and with a request to be informed if you were incorrect. Not to mention a complete lack of profanity or discussion of excrement (of either the golden or bull varieties).

Don't infer from any of this that I'm trying to tell you how to behave - I'm not. What I am saying is that people's reactions to you will be based on how you behave.

Can you guys recommend a good book or learning material?

Here are the books I own (The most useful in bold:

The Genki Elementary Japanese textbook series - This book is filled with so much explanation, examples and neat characters (really!) that I couldn't imagine learning without it. It's great, and comes with audio CDs (or is supposed to).

The Complete Japanese Verb Guide (Tuttle) - You gotta' have a verb guide. It's as important as a Jap-Eng dictionary if you ask me.

Readin And Writing Japanese (Tuttle) - Although my copy was published in the '50s, I think, it's rarely let me down in my quests to identify almost any kanji.

Basic Japanese Idioms (Kodansha) - This book, while very expensive, is just fun to read, period. It makes you think as much about the funny stuff in English as in Japanese!

Finally, the best resource is a Japanese person. I know that might sound smart-ass but I'm quite serious. Being able to speak the language and practice with somebody else every day is the single most important thing, one that I never really had available to me for more than a week or so.

But don't take my word for it, because I still don't speak Japanese. About all I can do is ask where the bathroom is. Taking a college course is the best, but you have to take it seriously and study hard.

heh, saj! yokatta desune.

Japanese is very hard to teach yourself because the speech and writing systems are different- but should be learned hand-in-hand. I took two semesters in college and retained enough to communicate on a very basic level. The best way to learn is, like Saj says, from a native speaker who knows english very well.

I'd also recommend Beyond Polite Japanese: A Dictionary of Japanese Slang and Colloquialisms (Kodansha's Children's Classics,) an invaluable resource of cursing, insults, and slang.

Then suddenly, the Wall came down, the Reds didn't seem so scary, we started listening to Pearl Jam and watching movies like The Crow.

Very true- don't forget Japan's "bubble" economy burst in the early 90's as well, I think that had some impact on their volume of export.

Overblown, overhyped, over-budgeted 3-D features starring big names voicing anthropomorphic animals are killing this generation's view of animation...

I respect 3D animators as much as any other artist, although I do not particularly enjoy 3D animation in general. I think you make a valid point that 2D anime with inspire a new generation to embrace 2D, but I've also seen a lot of 2D anime that... makes that hard to believe. I recently saw the "New Fist Of The North Star" and it was more than disappointing. Watching for yourself and see what I mean. If that's the future of 2D, then it means that people with the ambition to do really good work will be marginalized in favor of what is cheaper and already has an established name, whether or not it does it any justice.

If I judged Disney on the last 4 years of (2-D) releases and made it representative of American animation, I'd say America is in the tubes. But I don't, because I know there's more out there than Disney. So please, lay off the Pokemon (we all know it's crappy,) and I'll lay off The Lion King 2 1/2 (I think we all agree that it's crap.)

I didn't even know about Home On The Range until it was long out of theaters. It makes me wonder how Dumbo or Bambi (my two personal favorites by Disney) would do if they were released today. Maybe smart-ass Eddie Murphy voices aren't what audiences really want. I know I don't want them. Compare the early Disney movies with todays, and I find that todays are mean and snide. The bizarre thing is that these movies all bear the name of a man long dead, and are presented in this "family values" context". I find it kind of creepy and morbid, myself. How can Hercules be "Disney's whateverth Masterpiece" when he's dead?

I ain't no goddamn fanboy, but I'll defend the hard work people put into some of the best animation in the world.

I've recently been labeled a "fanboy" around here myself, among other more conventional insulting things. The work of Don Bluth and John K. were some of my biggest inspirations to persue animation, and here I have found them frequently mocked and lambasted on an animation message board. Some people here have asserted that whatever anime is, it's fine and good as long as it inspires a new generation to persue animation. I find it rather interesting that this same token of good faith is not offered towards someone who loves The Ripping Friends and All Dogs Go To Heaven, because they are apparently considered to be "awful" and "crap", respectively. I feel that sentiment can be turned around just as well towards Dreamworks and Miyazaki, but then I'm called a "punk" and a "fanboy" by the "professionals".

I'm convinced at this point that the whole issue is just a bunch of bullshit, just a bunch of stinky opinions, egos and junk politics and I refuse to address it, stoke it or involve myself in it any further. And that's the truth. :)

Call it an insult if you will; it's merely my observation based on your contributions to this and other threads here over the last few months. Take it however you wish.

The insight I get from the picture you shared is that one caption writer didn't do his research. Obviously it has a more insidious meaning to you. To each his own, but I think you're reading far too much into it.

FWIW, I enjoyed reading your response to Jabberwocky re: The Black Cauldron. Thoughtful, explanatory, and with a request to be informed if you were incorrect. Not to mention a complete lack of profanity or discussion of excrement (of either the golden or bull varieties).

Don't infer from any of this that I'm trying to tell you how to behave - I'm not. What I am saying is that people's reactions to you will be based on how you behave.

I'm not so bad, am I now? Glad you enjoyed my freestyle Caulron commentary, but I'm in a bit of a rush. I'm having brunch this morning: cuss on the cob with a side of behavior cakes. I'll probably wash it down with a nice warm glass of turd juice. Gotta' run! :eek:

Thanks guys. I'll take all of your recommendations seriously. I'd love to find someone to speak to someday.

And yeah, the tanking economy didn't help things. But for sure, the party was over. The ringing in the '90's with grunge and anxty movies was kind of like the guy who wants to talk politics showing up at the party and taking over the karoke machine right after the crowd getting done singing a head banging rendition of "Paradise City".

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Anime is not a new generation's view of animation. It's merely well appreciated by the younger generations.

It's appreciated by the younger generations because that's what's on TV. In the 60's, it was Hanna Barbera; in the 80's it was He-Man and She-Ra.

Kids watch what's available to them. Currently the predominant style on Saturday morning is anime. That takes nothing away from anime, but let's keep the whole picture in perspective.

Oh, and Spongebob. Can't forget Spongebob...:D

.... If that's the future of 2D, then it means that people with the ambition to do really good work will be marginalized in favor of what is cheaper and already has an established name, whether or not it does it any justice.

It's always been that way, and it always will be. Some studios will respect the artist, while most will only respect the dollar (or yen...). It isn't the lone province of anime and Japan to make quick, ugly cartoons for the sake of a quick buck.

Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com

Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight

i think the audience will judge what is good or not by choosing it, i think its a bit elitist to sit here and say what is good/bad animation or entertainment.

i think the audience will judge what is good or not by choosing it, i think its a bit elitist to sit here and say what is good/bad animation or entertainment.

I get your point, but aren't we an audience? A very small sample of the overall audience, but an audience. It's a bit like saying, "There's nothing you can do about it, so don't bother talking about it."

Not to mention, many of us are (and many hope to be) in a position to take part in the creation of these shows and movies we talk about. Discussing out the points will, hopefully, help some of us figure out the what and why of how some shows work or don't.

But, yeah, to say, "I don't like it, so it's crap," is a bit silly.

Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com

Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight

anime, is more mature in alot of series, even series such as sailor moon viewed in their original language. I plan on making it in anime in japan at some point, but I know that to excel you must adapt. However anime is just in a sense more mature, even some japanese pocket monsters movies were breathtaking.

anime, is more mature in alot of series, even series such as sailor moon viewed in their original language. I plan on making it in anime in japan at some point, but I know that to excel you must adapt. However anime is just in a sense more mature, even some japanese pocket monsters movies were breathtaking.

Thats what keeps me watching anime. Shows like Full Metal Alchemist, Stand Alone Complex, Zeta Gundam, Cowboy Bebop, Escaflowne, and countless others protray a believable world with believable characters. What I also like about "good" anime is that the characters aren't one dimensional and actually develope throughout the series.

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Also code lyoko is not anime, I think you should figure out what anime is before you comment as alot of those childhood memories were anime.

You guys are right....

welll,,, hmmmm...anime....you guys are rght...cause im a teen myself....I used to love anime and still is ok with it now.....I used to love Pokemon, really, I think because i like to dream i was in that world....Now harvey im mot starting anything here, but i think it is because its always different, something new and exciting....used to play games with friends from the ideas we got from anime....

But actually the reason i stopped loving it is because I guess it is for children and not for adults...So i left it aside, One of the paths of adulthood....

:( soo sad:(

Imagination is much more important then knowledge...

welll,,, hmmmm...anime....you guys are rght...cause im a teen myself....I used to love anime and still is ok with it now.....I used to love Pokemon, really, I think because i like to dream i was in that world....Now harvey im mot starting anything here, but i think it is because its always different, something new and exciting....used to play games with friends from the ideas we got from anime....

But actually the reason i stopped loving it is because I guess it is for children and not for adults...So i left it aside, One of the paths of adulthood....

:( soo sad:(

Anime is NOT intended for children, in japan everyone watches anime just as casually as they would watch a sitcom in america. It is their cultuture.

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