If there were How To Draw Western Animation books or "American Animation Outlet" chains in the mall, then I could swallow some of the tired rhetoric on this thread.
Eh... ehm.... Disney (and Warner Bros.).... They've been making tons and tons of how to draw Disney characters (even their 3D characters) for decades. Inspiring generations to 'be just like Disney'. Not to mention theme parks up the wazoo, themed stores with forcably smiling clerks, etc. etc.
Anime has this inexplicable power to create vast legions of fanatics, and I mean FANATICS. Visit a local anime club and check it out. The fanaticism revolves around not "the anime" itself, but "Anime." It's not the same, man. There's some corrupt force underlying it's basis. I try in vain to put my finger on exactly what it is... but it's there.
Ha! It is odd how deep the addiction can go for many, but then again I know of grown adults that own absolutely every Disney movie (even the direct to video sequels) and decorate their house in Disney themes and posters (and a couple who are Bugs Bunny insane). Same for Red Socks, Raiders, or Yankees fans. Not a whole lot different, just our culture versus theirs. Something I can identify with vs. something I can't.
For many, perhaps it's merely a back lash against the mindless Disney/WB conforming and imitators that was the only source of animation for years. How many times have we heard, "it doesn't compare to Disney"? Suddenly a whole new form of animation and story types comes along for the disillusioned youth. For many seeking something outside the norm, it would be like a ray of light shining on them for the first time. Consider who it typically appeals to. The most fanatical fans I've met also tend to be Dungeons and Dragons players (or the equivalent). Fantasy or comic book fanatics. People who's taste in the media typically falls outside what's offered to them on network television (short of Toonami, which is a very tamed down version of what they can get 'off the streets'). Even the theme of Akira is that of a looser in high school getting the powers of a god and taking it out on a society who did him wrong (real or perceived). Much of adult anime is filled with this sort of comic book justice. How many mechs are piloted by kids?
Is anime the equivelant of heavy metal? Just pure crappy noise for most, but the sweetest sound to those who wish for something outside the white bread, suburban Disneyfied fare they normally get.
The only times I hear about the evils of invading non-Western cultures are these rare occasions on this forum. It's really weird.
It is pretty funny. We may invade through music, television, and tanks, but they've got us by the short and curlies when it comes to anime.
Do you feel the same way about Ford cars? Hewlett-Packard computers? Taco Bell? All of these (and hundreds more) are companies named after people who are either dead or no longer at the helm, yet these companies create new products all the time. Seems a silly thing to be creeped out over.;)
I happen to drive a 90 Ford Ranger, and I have indeed pondered the strangeness (hypocrisy?) of my Alternative Tenticles sticker affixed beside that the name of a Nazi sympathizer. It's kind of creepy. However, Hewlett-Packard, Ford and Taco Bell I would say are more "inventors" than they were/are artists. That's certainly arguable. I understand your point, but I was talking about something slightly different.
Note that Nickleodeon's The Ren & Stimpy Show is now presented as John K's The Ren & Stimpy Show the same as David Lynch's Blue Velvet or Katsuhiro Otoumo's Akira. This is information about the artwork itself, not neccesarily dealing with proprietary issues. Another example: note that Penny Lane (my fav Beatles song :) ) is credited to Lennon/McCartney, though to my knowledge, it was written entirely by Paul. Due to a business agreement, all their songs are credited that way regardless of whether they wrote it together or seperate.
I understand that that's business, but then the information (or credit, if you will) becomes hard to discern. Case in point: Chip'n'Dale Rescue Rangers. The title, box art, etc. describes it as being "Disney's", but it's rather obvious that it's not WALT Disney's. I see two possibilities: either the show was conceptualized by an artist or artists that had some rad vision for the show but their credit takes a back seat to the Disney logo, or that the show was actually was brainstormed in a meeting room by some focus group and really doesn't have any such "author(s)", which seems more likely.
I guess what I'm saying is, I like CNDRR alright, kind of dorky and charming, but reading the credits ("Created by the Walt Disney Company") seems kind of cryptic and faceless. Maybe that's exactly what RR is! I suppose I'll try running some of the names through Altavista and see what I get?
Except for the inclusion of the above paragraph, I'm assuming...?
Please, help yourself to the last word on anime, if you must. Really! Bait me all you want, but I'm done with it.
[b](These are the responses of fans on anime forums, answering the question, "Why do you like anime?"
None of these responses are my own.)[/b]
"One thing I like is how the characters devolop, the complexity of most of the anime I watch ... "
"Story, story, story and story. Oh, and ditto that for characterisation. If you watch western cartoons, you'll notice that both of these are generally very sorely lacking. Even a lot of tv shows in general could do with them too. ... Anime also works very well in that if you go looking, you could probably find a series on just about any subject matter. For example, one of the more popular ones is centred around baking bread!"
"i luv the characters drawn. so beautiful, i can never draw that good. Also, the story is rly good too. i mean, i would loooooove to be the heroine in the stories....but since i can't, i wanna watch what happens to them ^_^ "
"because anime allows you to think and find out why their villains act like they do. There's a thin, gray line between the black and white. It doesn't teach you what's right and wrong, it shows you what is and makes you decide."
"Well first it is different. There are many different catagories of anime. I do like a good story. Sometimes I like to see the hero get killed. Or something else that is taboo according to Hollywood"
"Well, besides the fact that the guys are very sexy in most of the Anime. What? ;)
I like Anime for the storylines mostly. Most of them are deeply in depth, and you have to watch it episode by episode or you miss what the heck is going on."
"The storyplots of an anime series tend to be much better developed and thought-out, making anime very interesting. Same w/ the characters. They just seem so real, besides the fact they're almost always physically perfect and they've got supernatural powers--they still go through all the same emotions and trials a typical person does."
"Anime is a nice refreshing "artsy" form of animation that is different from what is generally viewed in America"
"the design the plots humour and it is just different to western cartoons they deal with so many different things and they just hook you."
"Storywise, I like the fact that Japanese visual culture (both anime and manga) is used to address topics that Western artists have mostly avoided, until fairly recently.
...
I think anime has a lot of interesting things to say about culture, gender, relationships, and politics (nope, I'm really not kidding) so it's both fun to watch and fun to think about."
"I like the comparatively mature stories that deal a lot with philosophy & religion with elements of sci-fi/fantasy, romance and comedy. American cartoons are made generally for kids and aren't adult enough in their content for my taste."
"I don't quite know exactly...except for that I can tell you that I have seen far better quality than in any American media. Oh, and you just have to love the art style...much more refined that American animation. Not to mention the fact that in America, animation is seen as something only the kids should be able to enjoy, and as a result, the plots are simplified and rather stale."
"It looks like they are trying to animate real life. American tv shows have weak plots and story lines, animes are so much more adult and involved, you cant come in on the middle of a season and expect to know it all, you gotta watch from start to fin."
"Good storylines, beautiful artwork, great voice acting (Japanese). It's different from American cartoons because most American cartoons are just a really draw out series with repeated storyline and no end. Most anime I watch are under 52 eps, has a defined storyline and has a definite ending. And I don't like the American cartoon style art, the anime style looks much better. Anime also have a wider range of stories. Most American cartoons are just about superhero fighting evil or comedy. Anime has more variety."
"Whats appealing? The stuff dealing with feudal Japan, hot anime babes, animation quality that far exceeds anything the twits stateside can produce"
"The emotional stories in anime really set it apart from other cartoons. Sailor Moon is probably one of my all-time favorite anime series, and I have cried after some of the episodes. I also love the humor in many of the shows. Cute/sexy girls/women also appeal to me. ;)"
"simple awnser is becuase of the deeper storylines and better artwork.
i mean for one,compare X to something like Courage The Cowardly Dog.
X is a visual masterpiece in my opinion,the storyline is deep,beautiful and serene sometimes,but other times it is very tragic,and disturbing.
but never the less,it is a deep,passionate storyline.
the artwork is top notch,fantastic and amazing are two words that come to my mind right now,another would be beautiful.
now,compare that to Courage The Cowardly Dog.
hes a dog,he runs around trying to stop weird monsters and stuff from stealing the old lady he loves,and the farmer is an idiot with his foot so far up his @$$ that its amazing.
and the art work,it looks like a nine year old drew it,truthfully speaking."
Miyazaki's movies are among the most boring, forgetable and tedious movies I have ever suffered. Granted, I thought the first half of Spirited Away was pretty cool, but once the girl gets to the bottom of the "scary staircase" the whole movie is so dreadfully lame I almost turned it off a few times (made it to the end, tough). I would NEVER watch Princess Mononoke ever again, nor any other Miyazaki movie. Thumbellina by Don Bluth is a better movie, and is also not such a bad movie by itself (don't know why it's trashed so often). If I wanted Alice In Wonderland, I wouldn't watch Spirited Away. If I wanted Star Wars meets Clan Of The Cavebear, I wouldn't watch Pincess Mononoke (come to mention it, I wouldn't want either of those anyway).
The title, box art, etc. describes it as being "Disney's", but it's rather obvious that it's not WALT Disney's.
Walt himself acknowledged that, in the public's mind, the name "Walt Disney" at some point no longer referred to him, but to the company he had created and it's products.
When we're unfamiliar with a particular culture or race, all of them or all of what they produce can look similar to us. [i]
("All Asians look the same. I can't tell them apart. Also, all Asian cartoons look the same. I can't tell them apart either. Also, duhhhhh.")[/i]
When we're immersed in a culture, it's easier to notice the differences.
Well maybe we're just not reasoning this out right - maybe it's because all Asians look exactly the same that they produce, in turn, cartoons that all look exactly the same? I think I'm onto something here! :)
Harvey you are too much, but you really summed it up. What can I say...nothing to add to what you said already.
I personally would like to see some more TinTin stuff, but don't think it will ever really catch on, maybe...someone want to watch and read the comics and come up with something?
But I have to add of all the cartoon animation out there today. "Courage" passes the test. Maybe you don't like it, but it takes chances. He may just be an ugly dog and his owners old people but the stories are fresh and so is some of the animation.
No, that's not my writing. I guess I should've made that clearer.
Since I'm not much of an anime fan and since anime doesn't seem to have any really passionate defenders on this forum, I pulled those colorful quotes off of some anime forums so people could better understand why anime is so popular:
[list]
[*]elaborate stories
[*]complex characters
[*]beautiful character designs
[*]colorful background art
[*]emotional content
[*]a large variety of themes
[*]a love of the fantasy genre
[/list](again, their reasons not mine)
I grew up in the 80's era of wonderful animated movies and trash television animation. I sat in front of the television cheering on He-man and spitting out my fruit loops every time my fave ninja turtle cracked a joke about pizza. I cried when Little Foot's mother died and watched the Brave Little Toaster go cross country to find his owner.
Now I see what my little cousins are obssessed with. 90% of it is anime or psuedo-anime. Now don't get me wrong, I see movies like Akira and Miyazaki films and I think they are wonderful contributions to the medium. However, anime of this quality counts for about .5% of the gamet.
The anime I see on T.V. today (like Yu-gi-oh,Code Lyoko) are the equivelant to the 30 minute commericials I enjoyed 20 years ago. Has the only progression come in the form of an oriental make over?
At a recent animation seminar I attended, a disturbing number of would-be animators sited anime as thier main influence and intention of career. I'm not nay-saying a career choice, but one look through a couple of sketch books and I was not impressed.
My problem with anime is that it has too many rules. An angry character's face is supposed to look like this. A pretty girls eyes looks like that. Far too many kids had a thousand different characters drawn in thier books, all with the exact same stamped-on faces. The only indication of difference were varied hairstyles. The spirit of creativity is dashed the second they follow the rules to make sure it's anime.
I know fads and trends run thier course, but this one has me a bit worried. As I grew up, I was exposed to many different styles, good and bad. My little cousins refuse to accept any other form of animation. I tried to give em a healthy dose of Wallace and Gromit, but they got bored as soon as they figured out that there wasn't going to be any card dueling. Sigh.
This thread I was trying to ignore but listen to this.
The realisation of anime has spand far beyond that of what really is good, it's appeal renders it acceptable to a younger demographic, mainly the teens, producers are realising that anime is what will get them ratings, and, in the long run more money. You cannot deny the fact that it's entire criteria has proven succesful with viewers, you are one of the more conservative anime lovers, usually the one who phone in to television networks and complain about suttle matters, matters which we really dn't have time for. Yet, you cannot stop a "booming" industry and anime is just that, times are changing and we are evolving, it is time you adapt to the change or like a biological approach, be left behind, after all, any good producer knows, in order to have a hit show, it must have something that will relate to the viewers, you cannot deny it, after all, when my show "comes out" it will resemble anime, but listen, it will not contain bloodshed nor brutality, instead I want to instill into it's viewers moral values such as friendship, honesty, courage and respect, I still love and respect the teachings of my elders, I cannot let them be dissappointed. Some how you will have to accept the fact that anime is "in" hopefully you will understand and support us animators who simply try to make a descent living.
He who seeks the truth, must first empty his heart of a false pursuit.
naw im just messing with you im sure theyre great :)
I didn't claim that they're great. I claimed that the cartoons are stylistically variant from one another, which they are.
All characters in a Japanese cartoon look the same?
Mickey and Minnie look the same.
The Disney duck characters look the same. ("Does Donald have three nephews or just one omnipresent nephew? I can never tell. Also, duhhhhh and possibly *hic*.")
The Simpsons characters look the same.
The Peanuts kids look the same.
The South Park kids look the same.
The Disney heroines look the same.
The Powerpuff Girls look the same.
and so on and so forth
I personally would like to see some more TinTin stuff, but don't think it will ever really catch on, maybe...someone want to watch and read the comics and come up with something?
I'm a big Tintin fan. I've been thinking of making a Tintin cartoon for a while. I love the story, the artwork, and the humor. I own all the comics.
To bad the old TV show had such limited animation. Don't get me wrong, I like the old TV show. The stories were well adapted and fairly accurate and made up for the limited animation.
Well, yes, there's a fair amount of uppity hype surrounding Myazaki. Anime for true, artsy connoissuers and all that. But I don't find movies taking it slowly "boring" per se. Good stories with rich visuals deserve some running time. I think many of today's productions are much too hastily told and that we need to learn how to slow down and get away from that video clip style-cutting and intercutting again.
From all I've heard, the greatest Thumbelina basher is Bluth himself. He was never too happy with the outcome of it.
Eh... ehm.... Disney (and Warner Bros.).... They've been making tons and tons of how to draw Disney characters (even their 3D characters) for decades. Inspiring generations to 'be just like Disney'. Not to mention theme parks up the wazoo, themed stores with forcably smiling clerks, etc. etc.
No. Not the same. Those stores are company outlets for strictly Disney merchandise, not "western animation" (sorry, no trendy term for it).
I would be blown away if I saw "The Animation Store." Browse the racks A-Z, and see all kinds of animation: Akira and Aeon Flux, Tamala 2010 and Rock & Rule, Urusei Yatsura and Ripping Friends. Ah, how about the Short Films of David Lynch! Frank Zappa's Baby Snakes! Wallace & Gromit! Bob & Margaret! Yes, even Adult Swim and the Simpsons! Animation from all over the world in one awesome chain store.
NOT GONNA HAPPEN.
You got mall studios FILLED with anime, and not any of the good anime either (I know this because, time to time, I check them... in vain). Other than that, you can scour your local Suncoast for other animation in their respective subgenre (i.e. comedy, drama), where the selection sucks even if you can find it. The Diznay Store is not the "American" flipside to an anime outlet anymore than all anime is produced by the same company.
Ha! It is odd how deep the addiction can go for many, but then again I know of grown adults that own absolutely every Disney movie (even the direct to video sequels) and decorate their house in Disney themes and posters (and a couple who are Bugs Bunny insane). Same for Red Socks, Raiders, or Yankees fans. Not a whole lot different, just our culture versus theirs. Something I can identify with vs. something I can't.
...
I dunno, man. Does Bugs Bunny utterly consume this person's every waking moment? Does he spend ALL his hard-earned cash exclusively on Looney Tunes and Bugs Bunny videogames? Does his mother drive him to said job everday because he can't be bothered to get a driver's license or do anything outside of consuming Bugs Bunny products and getting more money to by them? Does he actually think he's a Bugs Bunny character?
I'm sure there's one or two Bugs Bunny freaks of this caliber out there... maybe.
That sounds so much like the tirades we sometimes hear - from dictators, religious fanatics, the French, and "snobs" - about the evils of Western culture.
THAT'S IT. YOU BEST GRAB YOUR CARDS, PAL, BECAUSE IT'S TIME TO
Your ass is grass when I pull my Blue Eye White Dragon.
No one has simply said "I love this" or "I hate that" on this thread (except maybe for Sajdera who seems to be saying that he hates anime because lots of other people like it).
I can understand people ranting about why they don't like terrorism or cancer, but I don't see how anything "intelligent" is accomplished by people railing against harmless things. Imagine someone starting a thread about why they hate tangerines. Who the hell cares?
I'm just glad that so many more kids, adults, and females throughout the world are drawn to animation because of Japanese animation. Why do some people have to be animation "bigots"?
Live and LET LIVE. Let people enjoy the things that make them happy.
Don't be a complete dick just because you don't enjoy them also.
American animation (I'm talking TV, not movies) ignored framing and camera movements, aside from simple pans, for years, preferring instead to look like a stage play. Many shows still look that way. Anime on the other hand has been cinematic, even the cheap stuff, for decades. No wonder they're so influential with modern animators. They can tell they're stories and still be able to afford to tell more.
Actually, it was Frank Tashlin at Termite Terrace who pioneered the cinematic approach to cartoons starting with his first directorial effort Porky's Poultry Plant (c. 1936) both before there was television for animation to branch into and well before Japan had any sort of thriving animation industry.
Some people mistakingly think that anime was the one that pioneered the cinematic approach to animation when it was actually artists like Frank Tashlin and Chuck Jones who really shaped animation for the better in this way. All Japan did was use their techniques and then litter the films with Japanese cultural influenecs (as well as their own attempts to reproduce other western animation styles that influenced them such as Walt Disney, the Fleischer brothers, and Tex Avery).
Sorry, I needed to clarify that.
—
Order my book Jesus Needs Help on Amazon or download on Kindle.
Walt himself acknowledged that, in the public's mind, the name "Walt Disney" at some point no longer referred to him, but to the company he had created and it's products.
Like Ford...
or Hewlett-Packard...
Yes. If you're going to work for Disney (or Ford, etc.) you have to be ready to except that fact, or strike out to make your own legacy like Bluth or Spumco.
I'm sure there's one or two Bugs Bunny freaks of this caliber out there... maybe.
Are you serious? Have you ever even BEEN on the Internet? Or for that matter, looked up the name in a phone book?
People are pretty weird people =) I tend to love that about them though.
Oh, and the word is "duel," with an E. If you got that picture from someone else, consider in the future how that might misrepresent you, and go kick that person in the Koosh.
Actually, it was Frank Tashlin at Termite Terrace who pioneered the cinematic approach to cartoons starting with his first directorial effort Porky's Poultry Plant (c. 1936) both before there was television for animation to branch into and well before Japan had any sort of thriving animation industry.
Some people mistakingly think that anime was the one that pioneered the cinematic approach to animation when it was actually artists like Frank Tashlin and Chuck Jones who really shaped animation for the better in this way. All Japan did was use their techniques and then litter the films with Japanese cultural influenecs (as well as their own attempts to reproduce other western animation styles that influenced them such as Walt Disney, the Fleischer brothers, and Tex Avery).
Sorry, I needed to clarify that.
Just to clarify, I never said that they invented it, but merely at a time when just about every animation venue (again short of features) in the US had gone to a simple stage play design, Japan's worst attempts at animation was making better use of cinematic elements than the majority of their US counterparts (I'm focusing on the '70's and '80's here). Where the US animators ignored the lessons of those that went before them, Japan took that, learned, and then used it. Call it attempts to reproduce if you want, I prefer to think of it as not reinventing the wheel and knowing a good thing when they see it. They realised very early on that animation was film making, with a pencil, whereas, again with the exception of the feature industry, the American TV animators (or directors more specifically) generally only saw it as a new version of vaudville. Anime typically draws from film making in general.
And wasn't imitating the greats what most animators (and artists) Japanese or otherwise have been doing since the greats became great? Why is it ok for western Animators to be influenced by Disney, Jones, etc. but not Japanese animators?
I don't know, Harvey, why don't we ask the anime geeks why they're so closed-minded.
No one has simply said "I love this" or "I hate that" on this thread (except maybe for Sajdera who seems to be saying that he hates anime because lots of other people like it).
What can I say? You really nailed it.
Except that you didn't. I don't hate anime. I don't even hate anime geeks. My best friend is the worst kind of anime geek. I let him know it, but I don't hate him.
I'm frustrated with western attitudes towards animation. The animation kicks ass, but the audience doesn't get it. I think it would be more accurate to say that anime geeks hate western animation because it's NOT popular! Put that in your bubble pipe and smoke it.
My dad and I watched the Ripping Friends DVD this morning. That show kicks all manner of righteous ass, and look... not on the air. What's up with that? People can't handle shit like the Ripping Friends. It's too stimulating. Gotta get that South Park instead. Makes me sick.
I've completed three college courses of Japanese language and was a solid B++ kinda' student...I am not anti-Japanese!
That said, I'm a little burnt-out on the everything Japanese craziness going on State-side. It's not even cultural appropriation, but more like pop-cultural appropriation and it's becoming really shallow and tedious is you ask me.
I think we're turning Japanese. I really think so!
what is it that made you decide to study japanese? Do you think that's related to the cause of the "craze" in the states? Besides, it's a mutual thing. People in Japan are wondering why the hell all their youngsters are so into English and everything america.
watashi mo benkyoo shimashita kara nihongo ga daisuki desu... I studied because I didn't want to learn romance languages, and I've always been drawn to pictogram methods of writing.
Oh, and the word is "duel," with an E. If you got that picture from someone else, consider in the future how that might misrepresent you, and go kick that person in the Koosh.
I added the text myself. I was laughing so hard while I was making it that I gave myself a headache, not to mention misspelling "duel." It does sound more like "dual" when you're screaming it at Harvey Human's avatar. :eek:
Who's the freak, now?!
All characters in a Japanese cartoon look the same?
Mickey and Minnie look the same.
The Disney duck characters look the same. ("Does Donald have three nephews or just one omnipresent nephew? I can never tell. Also, duhhhhh and possibly *hic*.")
The Simpsons characters look the same.
The Peanuts kids look the same.
The South Park kids look the same.
The Disney heroines look the same.
The Powerpuff Girls look the same.
and so on and so forth
...and all of those are terrible? Okay!, so we're agreed that anime is roughly equivelant to the most unimaginative and uninteresting and boring Western animation. I'm glad we were able to reach a compromise. :D
I grew up in the 80's era of wonderful animated movies and trash television animation. I sat in front of the television cheering on He-man and spitting out my fruit loops every time my fave ninja turtle cracked a joke about pizza. I cried when Little Foot's mother died and watched the Brave Little Toaster go cross country to find his owner.
Now wait a minute, Gongoose, maybe you should revisit He-man, Real Ghostbusters and especially the TMNT. I was the right age to be totally engrossed in Ninja Turtles and Ghostbusters and had all the toys and so I'm not denying that I was totally psyched about these... I'll say "franchises." But I was eight years old, and I am pretty much convinced that kids will (for the most part) watch whatever is put before them. Granted, it's not entirely that simple, I know, but the facts that kids in our society 1) don't know any better, and 2) are becoming more and more an autonomous consumer demographic are HUGH factors.
Going back and watching these shows a little older, wiser and discerning will put your comparison is a clear perspective. All these shows were plagued by numerous color mistakes, characters standing on the legs of chairs, truly embarrasing continuity errors (see: Kid 'n 'Play from the same era) and total voice track snafus. I distinctly remember a scene in TMNT where April O'neil shouts out, "COWABUNGA!" in Michaelangelo's voice. I picked up on that even when I was a kid and couldn't believe what a massive screw up it was. I've been rewatching the Chip'n'Dale shows and I've noticed even Disney had some color goofs, but definately not as many as, say, The Legend Of Zelda.
Personally, I think Yu-Gi-Oh is entertaining, maybe not "classic" :o . It's really slick and shiny although not very stimulating in the "animation department" as it were. I don't have a problem with the card dueling aspect except that, to me and everyone I've watched it with, the rules of the game make absolutely no sense. I feel like the writing and story of newer shows, morals and values aside, is the same if not better than the Ninja Turtle era.
What you may be picking up on is that the new shows like Pokemon and Yu-gi-Oh are more overt in their commercialization, but the afternoon cartoons of our childhood were just as much about selling toys as they are now. The overall standard of quality seems the same to me, even better today because of computers and such, but the values and themes are quite different.
Anyone seen the Bratz? That's certainly a lot of change in what, 15 years?
haha...This forum's always so polarized :D ...it's either considerate maturity even during moments of hotheadedness, with attempts to use facts, or you have stuff like that where someone wants to play the ignorant childish fool taking what he believes as proof for points not being debated.
I don't know, Harvey, why don't we ask the anime geeks why they're so closed-minded.
They're not closed-minded. They simply prefer some things to other things; but your rants against anime clearly go beyond this: Your original post compares the love of anime to drug-addiction and religious cults.
Anyway, this is a provocative thread. I just wish some actual anime fans would contribute.
I just wish some actual anime fans would contribute.
DUDE. I HAVE BEEN CONTRIBUTING.
I don't understand you. I'm voicing my opinion against an elitist fad and you call me bigoted! I'm a bigot because I advocate a strive for diversity in animation. I am alikened to a facist dictator because I think 22 year olds spending entire paychecks on "naughty-nurse w/ giant syringe" figurines is not a healthy, well-adjusted lifestyle.
But, who am I to judge? I'm not without my fair share of psychological issues, but I guess I'm the only one here who's seen people utterly consumed by their fanatacism for anime. There's always about four of them in any given Japanese language course (always the worst students), so go check them out and tell me that anime doesn't do freaky things to people heads.
Why is it ok for western Animators to be influenced by Disney, Jones, etc. but not Japanese animators?
Who said it wasn't? This just shows that the Japanese know what to study. Really, the people most likely to take offense to my previous statement are the ones who have hyped anime into one of the most over-rated mediums ever, y'know the people who think that this style is taking over and is rendering all Western animation obsolete. I actual fact, anime is at the very same level as every other style of animation out there, no better nor worse. I'm certainly no anime enthusiast but I don't complain about it either. Both Western and Eastern animation styles stem from the same roots, it's silly to declare one or the other as the only good style.
—
Order my book Jesus Needs Help on Amazon or download on Kindle.
I check Wikipedia to get my facts strait on Tom & Jerry regarding another thread, and I see this promotional image for a new T&J series:
I've completed three college courses of Japanese language and was a solid B++ kinda' student and met some really cool exchange students. I love Godzilla movies. I am not anti-Japanese! :rolleyes:
That said, I'm a little burnt-out on the everything Japanese craziness going on State-side. I can agree that understanding and appreciating other cultures is a healthy thing, but what exactly is goin' on around here? It's not even cultural appropriation, but more like pop-cultural appropriation and it's becoming really shallow and tedious is you ask me.
I think we're turning Japanese. I really think so!
fair exchange then a lot of Americana gets exported to Japan and the rest of the world.
what is it that made you decide to study japanese? Do you think that's related to the cause of the "craze" in the states? Besides, it's a mutual thing. People in Japan are wondering why the hell all their youngsters are so into English and everything america.
watashi mo benkyoo shimashita kara nihongo ga daisuki desu... I studied because I didn't want to learn romance languages, and I've always been drawn to pictogram methods of writing.
I was inspired to study Japanese when I was taking Aikido lessons. I saw all the characters on the walls and something just clicked inside. The study of the language by far outlasted the studying of the martial art, and that's how I got into the act. The thing is, I don't have any Japanese friends! I studied it for five years, but I never used it day to day so... kind of sucks that way. I've been thinking about learning German lately, which is more a part of my lineage (either that or... Polish... nah!).
Tokoro de aikidou mo tanoshii deshita yo. Demo amari takata to omoimashita yo.
Okay!, so we're agreed that anime is roughly equivelant to the most unimaginative and uninteresting and boring Western animation. I'm glad we were able to reach a compromise. :D
... close but not exactly. Here, I shall repeat my position.
The majority of any artform is crap: music, animation, anime, comic strips, etc. That is, if there are a hundred American cartoons in production, chances are that any given American viewer is only interested in maybe two of those.
Also, entertainment produced by foreign cultures is generally less appealing due to a cultural divide. Hollywood movies are a rare exception. Anime is another exception in that its movies and television shows have a relatively wide global appeal.
it's bad enough this topic wouldn't go away on its own... now it's a sticky! :mad:
I have a mild phobia of sticky things. I hate touching sticky stuff like glue, hair gel or BBQ ribs. Sticky, sticky, STICKY!! MAKE THE STICKINESS STOP!! :eek:
When it comes to anime, I prefer a neutral-selfish view: anime in the Western world is a fad and fads never last, no matter how long-lived they seem. There'll be anime without the fad, too, of course, but it's a style among thousands of others.
If future generations of aspiring animators limit themselves to anime style, fine with me. They'll see where it gets them; either into a job, in which case everyone's happy, or with severly limited work possibilities - meaning more open spots for more versatile animators.
As for the audience's perception of animation: 70% (made-up figure to make it sound scientific, but really just an imaginary figure based on personal assumption to illustrate a point :rolleyes: ) of the average viewers can't tell whether Corpse Bride was done in stop-motion or CG. (Or know what stop-motion or CG means to begin with.) In the end it's going to be about the stories, not how pretty the drawings are. They are a perk, but "just" pretty drawings will get boring before long.
Who said it wasn't? This just shows that the Japanese know what to study. Really, the people most likely to take offense to my previous statement are the ones who have hyped anime into one of the most over-rated mediums ever, y'know the people who think that this style is taking over and is rendering all Western animation obsolete. I actual fact, anime is at the very same level as every other style of animation out there, no better nor worse. I'm certainly no anime enthusiast but I don't complain about it either. Both Western and Eastern animation styles stem from the same roots, it's silly to declare one or the other as the only good style.
Sorry, I infered a part of your statement that on second reading wasn't there. My apologies. But I really appreciate your reading into my statement with wild conjecture and assumption as well.
And if you want to really get specific, it's through the pioneering work of Eisenstein, Hitchcock, Wells, etc. that cinema (including the animations we're talking about) really got developed. Jones and Tashlin learned from them as did the Japanese (who later had their own pioneers like Kurosawa who in turn influenced American directors). It's all one crazy web of influence and to pin it on individuals seems almost pointless when you start to chart it out. No one is taking over anything, if anything it's a crazy see-saw of development as each culture takes turns influencing the other to verying degrees.
I get defensive about anime, because I do see the value in it (as well as realizing that, as Harvey says there's a lot of crap in it as well). Just as I would if someone said that all of the American animation was crap. I like both for what they are. Learning about both without jumping on the "all anime is crap" or "American cartoons would be nothing without anime" wagon with out learning what they are doing right is just silly. Sorting through the huge amount of crap is the tricky part.
I don't like much of Nirvana, Beck or Bjork, but I can manage to separate my tastes (or lack of, some might argue) from appreciation for their talent.
Ugh. How did I let myself get involved with this argument again. Has it been three months already? Tomorrow let's discuss why 2d is/isn't dead and why outsourcing is good/bad.
those garbage shows on the WB and lame anime shows for kids.
I like Xiaolin Showdown. It's a bit repetitive, but it has some effort towards a through storyline that isn't too bad if you take into account that it's aimed at kids under 13. Although I haven't seen it since last year.
Mucha Lucha is pretty funny at times. Cheap on the animation, but some pretty witty stuff. Again, that was last year.
And Yu-Gi, well it's pretty obvious what the formula is and that it's aimed pretty squarely at selling more Yu-Gi stuff, but I imagine that there will be a whole generation of 20 something suckers, er, adults that will be looking forward to a live action movie just like the hords of people dying to see live action Transformers. I have to admit, the backgrounds are pretty nice and they spend a lot more time on camera angles than the typical kid's show. But then again, that's pretty much to make up for not animating but maybe 100 frames for the full 20 minutes.
And generally speaking, no it isn't any worse than the rest of cartoons that kids are given to watch. There's no money to be made in making fully articulated animations for network (or near network) television. Anime is a natural solution. High action, low frame rates = exciting (even if artificially), and cheap. Tie in toys and put enough commercials on for anything and kids will buy it up like crazy. Quality is not a primary concern for the non-enthusiast (ie. kids).
Sorry if you don't like it, but you're unlikely to see less of it until it stops making money or they can figure out a more lucrative way to do it.
Wow, you like anime more than I do, Saj. How could you have let yourself become so corrupted, you mindless herd-follower?
(I put quotation marks around the word "bigot," which - in this context - means I was using it metaphorically; although a bigot can simply be someone who is intolerant of opposing views.)
Yes, diversity in animation is good but there's homogeneity in Western animation as well as in Eastern animation, yet you appeared to single out anime.
I'm just happy there are people who are obsessed with animation. People spend much of their paycheck on animation? Hell, I've spent my ENTIRE LIFE on animation and illustration. Have I been corrupted?
I'm just happy there are people who are obsessed with animation. People spend much of their paycheck on animation? Hell, I've spent my ENTIRE LIFE on animation and illustration. Have I been corrupted?
Perhaps a little, but that's another thread. :D
And just to get back to the stores. Anime stores contain a ton of different styles, all anime and manga, but there are different styles contained with in that. WB and Disney only contain one, and not much of that preferring to sell clothes and toys instead. I'm glad that these stores are turing kids onto art and animation. It isn't Disney, but perhaps it's time we took a break from everyone learning the Disney way.
Is there anyone from Asia here? I'd like to hear what they have to say about Western animation as a comparison. Being so deeply imbedded in a culture makes it difficult to comment on it. It's very easy to comment on anime since it's not mine and it delves into a societies sub-consious that I'll never fully be able to relate to. I may come to understand it through time, but without having lived it, there will always be something a bit 'exotic' about it.
For me that's part of the draw. It's something that's outside the norm from Western culture. I get most of the subtext and context of Western animation, what I don't get I understand on a level beyond words. It's part of my culture, and who I've become. In anime, there's always a level of slight anxiety (miniscule mostly) as my mind tries to grapple with a different, if only subtle, way of thinking, problem solving, and social interaction. My mind is enaged in a way that it isn't in Western animation (or film for that matter).
But sometimes I want to feel comfortable and watch something purely for entertainment or enlightenment, without feeling that slight unease and I'll watch Western fare. Personally, I'm happy that there's such a large amount of anime on TV. Hopefully there will be a new generation of animators that will be able to take the best of both worlds and make something new. We've already seen it with Samurai Jack, for one. I'm looking forward to more cinematic Western tv animation.
Variety is good, and TV still has it. Anime just stands out because it's different.
As animation goes, Bluth is "bad" on a level other productions can only dream of.
On a mere "technical" level, Bluth's animation is excellent *cough rotoscope cough* but it seems to me that it lacks soul and feeling. But that's just my opinion. Miyazaki's animation, on the other hand, is lifelike as well, in this case without the benefit of rotoscope, but it can sometimes be jerky. Yet, it has a feeling of space and realism that I just can't describe, as well as a great sense of "weight-from-timing" in certain scenes. And it's just so well-observed. Not as technically proficient as Bluth, but far more interesting, at least to me.
[b](These are the responses of fans on anime forums, answering the question, "Why do you like anime?"
None of these responses are my own.)[/b]
"simple awnser is becuase of the deeper storylines and better artwork.
i mean for one,compare X to something like Courage The Cowardly Dog...
Step 1: set up Straw Man.
Step 2: knock down Straw Man.
My dad and I watched the Ripping Friends DVD this morning. That show kicks all manner of righteous ass, and look... not on the air. What's up with that? People can't handle shit like the Ripping Friends. It's too stimulating. Gotta get that South Park instead. Makes me sick.
Ripping Friends was an awful show when it was on the air, and I can't imagine it's gotten any better sitting around on DVD. Glad that you like it, but clearly you're in the minority, since it didn't pull the numbers to stay on the air.
Eh... ehm.... Disney (and Warner Bros.).... They've been making tons and tons of how to draw Disney characters (even their 3D characters) for decades. Inspiring generations to 'be just like Disney'. Not to mention theme parks up the wazoo, themed stores with forcably smiling clerks, etc. etc.
Ha! It is odd how deep the addiction can go for many, but then again I know of grown adults that own absolutely every Disney movie (even the direct to video sequels) and decorate their house in Disney themes and posters (and a couple who are Bugs Bunny insane). Same for Red Socks, Raiders, or Yankees fans. Not a whole lot different, just our culture versus theirs. Something I can identify with vs. something I can't.
For many, perhaps it's merely a back lash against the mindless Disney/WB conforming and imitators that was the only source of animation for years. How many times have we heard, "it doesn't compare to Disney"? Suddenly a whole new form of animation and story types comes along for the disillusioned youth. For many seeking something outside the norm, it would be like a ray of light shining on them for the first time. Consider who it typically appeals to. The most fanatical fans I've met also tend to be Dungeons and Dragons players (or the equivalent). Fantasy or comic book fanatics. People who's taste in the media typically falls outside what's offered to them on network television (short of Toonami, which is a very tamed down version of what they can get 'off the streets'). Even the theme of Akira is that of a looser in high school getting the powers of a god and taking it out on a society who did him wrong (real or perceived). Much of adult anime is filled with this sort of comic book justice. How many mechs are piloted by kids?
Is anime the equivelant of heavy metal? Just pure crappy noise for most, but the sweetest sound to those who wish for something outside the white bread, suburban Disneyfied fare they normally get.
It is pretty funny. We may invade through music, television, and tanks, but they've got us by the short and curlies when it comes to anime.
Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com
Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight
I happen to drive a 90 Ford Ranger, and I have indeed pondered the strangeness (hypocrisy?) of my Alternative Tenticles sticker affixed beside that the name of a Nazi sympathizer. It's kind of creepy. However, Hewlett-Packard, Ford and Taco Bell I would say are more "inventors" than they were/are artists. That's certainly arguable. I understand your point, but I was talking about something slightly different.
Note that Nickleodeon's The Ren & Stimpy Show is now presented as John K's The Ren & Stimpy Show the same as David Lynch's Blue Velvet or Katsuhiro Otoumo's Akira. This is information about the artwork itself, not neccesarily dealing with proprietary issues. Another example: note that Penny Lane (my fav Beatles song :) ) is credited to Lennon/McCartney, though to my knowledge, it was written entirely by Paul. Due to a business agreement, all their songs are credited that way regardless of whether they wrote it together or seperate.
I understand that that's business, but then the information (or credit, if you will) becomes hard to discern. Case in point: Chip'n'Dale Rescue Rangers. The title, box art, etc. describes it as being "Disney's", but it's rather obvious that it's not WALT Disney's. I see two possibilities: either the show was conceptualized by an artist or artists that had some rad vision for the show but their credit takes a back seat to the Disney logo, or that the show was actually was brainstormed in a meeting room by some focus group and really doesn't have any such "author(s)", which seems more likely.
I guess what I'm saying is, I like CNDRR alright, kind of dorky and charming, but reading the credits ("Created by the Walt Disney Company") seems kind of cryptic and faceless. Maybe that's exactly what RR is! I suppose I'll try running some of the names through Altavista and see what I get?
Please, help yourself to the last word on anime, if you must. Really! Bait me all you want, but I'm done with it.
[b](These are the responses of fans on anime forums, answering the question, "Why do you like anime?"
None of these responses are my own.)[/b]
"One thing I like is how the characters devolop, the complexity of most of the anime I watch ... "
"Story, story, story and story. Oh, and ditto that for characterisation. If you watch western cartoons, you'll notice that both of these are generally very sorely lacking. Even a lot of tv shows in general could do with them too. ... Anime also works very well in that if you go looking, you could probably find a series on just about any subject matter. For example, one of the more popular ones is centred around baking bread!"
"i luv the characters drawn. so beautiful, i can never draw that good. Also, the story is rly good too. i mean, i would loooooove to be the heroine in the stories....but since i can't, i wanna watch what happens to them ^_^ "
"because anime allows you to think and find out why their villains act like they do. There's a thin, gray line between the black and white. It doesn't teach you what's right and wrong, it shows you what is and makes you decide."
"Well first it is different. There are many different catagories of anime. I do like a good story. Sometimes I like to see the hero get killed. Or something else that is taboo according to Hollywood"
"Well, besides the fact that the guys are very sexy in most of the Anime. What? ;)
I like Anime for the storylines mostly. Most of them are deeply in depth, and you have to watch it episode by episode or you miss what the heck is going on."
"The storyplots of an anime series tend to be much better developed and thought-out, making anime very interesting. Same w/ the characters. They just seem so real, besides the fact they're almost always physically perfect and they've got supernatural powers--they still go through all the same emotions and trials a typical person does."
"Anime is a nice refreshing "artsy" form of animation that is different from what is generally viewed in America"
"the design the plots humour and it is just different to western cartoons they deal with so many different things and they just hook you."
"Storywise, I like the fact that Japanese visual culture (both anime and manga) is used to address topics that Western artists have mostly avoided, until fairly recently.
...
I think anime has a lot of interesting things to say about culture, gender, relationships, and politics (nope, I'm really not kidding) so it's both fun to watch and fun to think about."
"I like the comparatively mature stories that deal a lot with philosophy & religion with elements of sci-fi/fantasy, romance and comedy. American cartoons are made generally for kids and aren't adult enough in their content for my taste."
"I don't quite know exactly...except for that I can tell you that I have seen far better quality than in any American media. Oh, and you just have to love the art style...much more refined that American animation. Not to mention the fact that in America, animation is seen as something only the kids should be able to enjoy, and as a result, the plots are simplified and rather stale."
"It looks like they are trying to animate real life. American tv shows have weak plots and story lines, animes are so much more adult and involved, you cant come in on the middle of a season and expect to know it all, you gotta watch from start to fin."
"Good storylines, beautiful artwork, great voice acting (Japanese). It's different from American cartoons because most American cartoons are just a really draw out series with repeated storyline and no end. Most anime I watch are under 52 eps, has a defined storyline and has a definite ending. And I don't like the American cartoon style art, the anime style looks much better. Anime also have a wider range of stories. Most American cartoons are just about superhero fighting evil or comedy. Anime has more variety."
"Whats appealing? The stuff dealing with feudal Japan, hot anime babes, animation quality that far exceeds anything the twits stateside can produce"
"The emotional stories in anime really set it apart from other cartoons. Sailor Moon is probably one of my all-time favorite anime series, and I have cried after some of the episodes. I also love the humor in many of the shows. Cute/sexy girls/women also appeal to me. ;)"
"simple awnser is becuase of the deeper storylines and better artwork.
i mean for one,compare X to something like Courage The Cowardly Dog.
X is a visual masterpiece in my opinion,the storyline is deep,beautiful and serene sometimes,but other times it is very tragic,and disturbing.
but never the less,it is a deep,passionate storyline.
the artwork is top notch,fantastic and amazing are two words that come to my mind right now,another would be beautiful.
now,compare that to Courage The Cowardly Dog.
hes a dog,he runs around trying to stop weird monsters and stuff from stealing the old lady he loves,and the farmer is an idiot with his foot so far up his @$$ that its amazing.
and the art work,it looks like a nine year old drew it,truthfully speaking."
Miyazaki's movies are among the most boring, forgetable and tedious movies I have ever suffered. Granted, I thought the first half of Spirited Away was pretty cool, but once the girl gets to the bottom of the "scary staircase" the whole movie is so dreadfully lame I almost turned it off a few times (made it to the end, tough). I would NEVER watch Princess Mononoke ever again, nor any other Miyazaki movie. Thumbellina by Don Bluth is a better movie, and is also not such a bad movie by itself (don't know why it's trashed so often). If I wanted Alice In Wonderland, I wouldn't watch Spirited Away. If I wanted Star Wars meets Clan Of The Cavebear, I wouldn't watch Pincess Mononoke (come to mention it, I wouldn't want either of those anyway).
Miyazaki is overrated.
Walt himself acknowledged that, in the public's mind, the name "Walt Disney" at some point no longer referred to him, but to the company he had created and it's products.
Like Ford...
or Hewlett-Packard...
Well maybe we're just not reasoning this out right - maybe it's because all Asians look exactly the same that they produce, in turn, cartoons that all look exactly the same? I think I'm onto something here! :)
http://hkcinemagic.ifrance.com/imagesa/deauville2003/gallery/tamala2010.jpg
Say hello Tamala and friends!, they really like circles and lifeless glassy eyes. What a great toy she makes for millions of clone-like Japanese consumerbots!
http://www.danielthomas.org/Assets/film%20reviews%20pix/yamadas.gif
These are the Yamadas, each member of the family unique in their own special way, as you can see from the picture! (do they have four dogs or just one omnipresent dog?, i can never tell)
naw im just messing with you im sure theyre great :)
Harvey you are too much, but you really summed it up. What can I say...nothing to add to what you said already.
I personally would like to see some more TinTin stuff, but don't think it will ever really catch on, maybe...someone want to watch and read the comics and come up with something?
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
But I have to add of all the cartoon animation out there today. "Courage" passes the test. Maybe you don't like it, but it takes chances. He may just be an ugly dog and his owners old people but the stories are fresh and so is some of the animation.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
No, that's not my writing. I guess I should've made that clearer.
Since I'm not much of an anime fan and since anime doesn't seem to have any really passionate defenders on this forum, I pulled those colorful quotes off of some anime forums so people could better understand why anime is so popular:
[list]
[*]elaborate stories
[*]complex characters
[*]beautiful character designs
[*]colorful background art
[*]emotional content
[*]a large variety of themes
[*]a love of the fantasy genre
[/list](again, their reasons not mine)
This thread I was trying to ignore but listen to this.
The realisation of anime has spand far beyond that of what really is good, it's appeal renders it acceptable to a younger demographic, mainly the teens, producers are realising that anime is what will get them ratings, and, in the long run more money. You cannot deny the fact that it's entire criteria has proven succesful with viewers, you are one of the more conservative anime lovers, usually the one who phone in to television networks and complain about suttle matters, matters which we really dn't have time for. Yet, you cannot stop a "booming" industry and anime is just that, times are changing and we are evolving, it is time you adapt to the change or like a biological approach, be left behind, after all, any good producer knows, in order to have a hit show, it must have something that will relate to the viewers, you cannot deny it, after all, when my show "comes out" it will resemble anime, but listen, it will not contain bloodshed nor brutality, instead I want to instill into it's viewers moral values such as friendship, honesty, courage and respect, I still love and respect the teachings of my elders, I cannot let them be dissappointed. Some how you will have to accept the fact that anime is "in" hopefully you will understand and support us animators who simply try to make a descent living.
He who seeks the truth, must first empty his heart of a false pursuit.
Diemeras Dark Angel
I didn't claim that they're great. I claimed that the cartoons are stylistically variant from one another, which they are.
All characters in a Japanese cartoon look the same?
Mickey and Minnie look the same.
The Disney duck characters look the same. ("Does Donald have three nephews or just one omnipresent nephew? I can never tell. Also, duhhhhh and possibly *hic*.")
The Simpsons characters look the same.
The Peanuts kids look the same.
The South Park kids look the same.
The Disney heroines look the same.
The Powerpuff Girls look the same.
and so on and so forth
(My emphasis)
Nicely worded, and a healthy observation. Too often the truth can get shrouded in the need of some people for the world to be black or white.
I'm a big Tintin fan. I've been thinking of making a Tintin cartoon for a while. I love the story, the artwork, and the humor. I own all the comics.
To bad the old TV show had such limited animation. Don't get me wrong, I like the old TV show. The stories were well adapted and fairly accurate and made up for the limited animation.
James
Here's a site that has made some intelligent gripes about anime. None are any close-minded prics simply saying "I love this" or "I hate that".
Order my book Jesus Needs Help on Amazon or download on Kindle.
You can also read the first 18 pages of my next book for free at this link: The Hap Hap Happy Happenstance of Fanny Punongtiti
Well, yes, there's a fair amount of uppity hype surrounding Myazaki. Anime for true, artsy connoissuers and all that. But I don't find movies taking it slowly "boring" per se. Good stories with rich visuals deserve some running time. I think many of today's productions are much too hastily told and that we need to learn how to slow down and get away from that video clip style-cutting and intercutting again.
From all I've heard, the greatest Thumbelina basher is Bluth himself. He was never too happy with the outcome of it.
No. Not the same. Those stores are company outlets for strictly Disney merchandise, not "western animation" (sorry, no trendy term for it).
I would be blown away if I saw "The Animation Store." Browse the racks A-Z, and see all kinds of animation: Akira and Aeon Flux, Tamala 2010 and Rock & Rule, Urusei Yatsura and Ripping Friends. Ah, how about the Short Films of David Lynch! Frank Zappa's Baby Snakes! Wallace & Gromit! Bob & Margaret! Yes, even Adult Swim and the Simpsons! Animation from all over the world in one awesome chain store.
NOT GONNA HAPPEN.
You got mall studios FILLED with anime, and not any of the good anime either (I know this because, time to time, I check them... in vain). Other than that, you can scour your local Suncoast for other animation in their respective subgenre (i.e. comedy, drama), where the selection sucks even if you can find it. The Diznay Store is not the "American" flipside to an anime outlet anymore than all anime is produced by the same company.
...
I dunno, man. Does Bugs Bunny utterly consume this person's every waking moment? Does he spend ALL his hard-earned cash exclusively on Looney Tunes and Bugs Bunny videogames? Does his mother drive him to said job everday because he can't be bothered to get a driver's license or do anything outside of consuming Bugs Bunny products and getting more money to by them? Does he actually think he's a Bugs Bunny character?
I'm sure there's one or two Bugs Bunny freaks of this caliber out there... maybe.
THAT'S IT. YOU BEST GRAB YOUR CARDS, PAL, BECAUSE IT'S TIME TO
Your ass is grass when I pull my Blue Eye White Dragon.
No one has simply said "I love this" or "I hate that" on this thread (except maybe for Sajdera who seems to be saying that he hates anime because lots of other people like it).
I can understand people ranting about why they don't like terrorism or cancer, but I don't see how anything "intelligent" is accomplished by people railing against harmless things. Imagine someone starting a thread about why they hate tangerines. Who the hell cares?
I'm just glad that so many more kids, adults, and females throughout the world are drawn to animation because of Japanese animation. Why do some people have to be animation "bigots"?
Live and LET LIVE. Let people enjoy the things that make them happy.
Don't be a complete dick just because you don't enjoy them also.
Actually, it was Frank Tashlin at Termite Terrace who pioneered the cinematic approach to cartoons starting with his first directorial effort Porky's Poultry Plant (c. 1936) both before there was television for animation to branch into and well before Japan had any sort of thriving animation industry.
Some people mistakingly think that anime was the one that pioneered the cinematic approach to animation when it was actually artists like Frank Tashlin and Chuck Jones who really shaped animation for the better in this way. All Japan did was use their techniques and then litter the films with Japanese cultural influenecs (as well as their own attempts to reproduce other western animation styles that influenced them such as Walt Disney, the Fleischer brothers, and Tex Avery).
Sorry, I needed to clarify that.
Order my book Jesus Needs Help on Amazon or download on Kindle.
You can also read the first 18 pages of my next book for free at this link: The Hap Hap Happy Happenstance of Fanny Punongtiti
Yes. If you're going to work for Disney (or Ford, etc.) you have to be ready to except that fact, or strike out to make your own legacy like Bluth or Spumco.
Are you serious? Have you ever even BEEN on the Internet? Or for that matter, looked up the name in a phone book?
People are pretty weird people =) I tend to love that about them though.
Oh, and the word is "duel," with an E. If you got that picture from someone else, consider in the future how that might misrepresent you, and go kick that person in the Koosh.
Your sarcasm at my honest attempt at improving communication on the net really hurts.
How was that? :D
Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com
Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight
Just to clarify, I never said that they invented it, but merely at a time when just about every animation venue (again short of features) in the US had gone to a simple stage play design, Japan's worst attempts at animation was making better use of cinematic elements than the majority of their US counterparts (I'm focusing on the '70's and '80's here). Where the US animators ignored the lessons of those that went before them, Japan took that, learned, and then used it. Call it attempts to reproduce if you want, I prefer to think of it as not reinventing the wheel and knowing a good thing when they see it. They realised very early on that animation was film making, with a pencil, whereas, again with the exception of the feature industry, the American TV animators (or directors more specifically) generally only saw it as a new version of vaudville. Anime typically draws from film making in general.
And wasn't imitating the greats what most animators (and artists) Japanese or otherwise have been doing since the greats became great? Why is it ok for western Animators to be influenced by Disney, Jones, etc. but not Japanese animators?
Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com
Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight
I don't know, Harvey, why don't we ask the anime geeks why they're so closed-minded.
What can I say? You really nailed it.
Except that you didn't. I don't hate anime. I don't even hate anime geeks. My best friend is the worst kind of anime geek. I let him know it, but I don't hate him.
I'm frustrated with western attitudes towards animation. The animation kicks ass, but the audience doesn't get it. I think it would be more accurate to say that anime geeks hate western animation because it's NOT popular! Put that in your bubble pipe and smoke it.
My dad and I watched the Ripping Friends DVD this morning. That show kicks all manner of righteous ass, and look... not on the air. What's up with that? People can't handle shit like the Ripping Friends. It's too stimulating. Gotta get that South Park instead. Makes me sick.
what is it that made you decide to study japanese? Do you think that's related to the cause of the "craze" in the states? Besides, it's a mutual thing. People in Japan are wondering why the hell all their youngsters are so into English and everything america.
watashi mo benkyoo shimashita kara nihongo ga daisuki desu... I studied because I didn't want to learn romance languages, and I've always been drawn to pictogram methods of writing.
I added the text myself. I was laughing so hard while I was making it that I gave myself a headache, not to mention misspelling "duel." It does sound more like "dual" when you're screaming it at Harvey Human's avatar. :eek:
Who's the freak, now?!
...and all of those are terrible? Okay!, so we're agreed that anime is roughly equivelant to the most unimaginative and uninteresting and boring Western animation. I'm glad we were able to reach a compromise. :D
Let's see...
Miyazaki is overrated,
Thumbelina is not bad
Ripping Friends should still be on TV...
The Sajdera picture is coming into focus...
Now wait a minute, Gongoose, maybe you should revisit He-man, Real Ghostbusters and especially the TMNT. I was the right age to be totally engrossed in Ninja Turtles and Ghostbusters and had all the toys and so I'm not denying that I was totally psyched about these... I'll say "franchises." But I was eight years old, and I am pretty much convinced that kids will (for the most part) watch whatever is put before them. Granted, it's not entirely that simple, I know, but the facts that kids in our society 1) don't know any better, and 2) are becoming more and more an autonomous consumer demographic are HUGH factors.
Going back and watching these shows a little older, wiser and discerning will put your comparison is a clear perspective. All these shows were plagued by numerous color mistakes, characters standing on the legs of chairs, truly embarrasing continuity errors (see: Kid 'n 'Play from the same era) and total voice track snafus. I distinctly remember a scene in TMNT where April O'neil shouts out, "COWABUNGA!" in Michaelangelo's voice. I picked up on that even when I was a kid and couldn't believe what a massive screw up it was. I've been rewatching the Chip'n'Dale shows and I've noticed even Disney had some color goofs, but definately not as many as, say, The Legend Of Zelda.
Personally, I think Yu-Gi-Oh is entertaining, maybe not "classic" :o . It's really slick and shiny although not very stimulating in the "animation department" as it were. I don't have a problem with the card dueling aspect except that, to me and everyone I've watched it with, the rules of the game make absolutely no sense. I feel like the writing and story of newer shows, morals and values aside, is the same if not better than the Ninja Turtle era.
What you may be picking up on is that the new shows like Pokemon and Yu-gi-Oh are more overt in their commercialization, but the afternoon cartoons of our childhood were just as much about selling toys as they are now. The overall standard of quality seems the same to me, even better today because of computers and such, but the values and themes are quite different.
Anyone seen the Bratz? That's certainly a lot of change in what, 15 years?
haha...This forum's always so polarized :D ...it's either considerate maturity even during moments of hotheadedness, with attempts to use facts, or you have stuff like that where someone wants to play the ignorant childish fool taking what he believes as proof for points not being debated.
They're not closed-minded. They simply prefer some things to other things; but your rants against anime clearly go beyond this: Your original post compares the love of anime to drug-addiction and religious cults.
Anyway, this is a provocative thread. I just wish some actual anime fans would contribute.
DUDE. I HAVE BEEN CONTRIBUTING.
I don't understand you. I'm voicing my opinion against an elitist fad and you call me bigoted! I'm a bigot because I advocate a strive for diversity in animation. I am alikened to a facist dictator because I think 22 year olds spending entire paychecks on "naughty-nurse w/ giant syringe" figurines is not a healthy, well-adjusted lifestyle.
But, who am I to judge? I'm not without my fair share of psychological issues, but I guess I'm the only one here who's seen people utterly consumed by their fanatacism for anime. There's always about four of them in any given Japanese language course (always the worst students), so go check them out and tell me that anime doesn't do freaky things to people heads.
it's bad enough this topic wouldn't go away on its own... now it's a sticky! :mad:
apples : oranges ::
Who said it wasn't? This just shows that the Japanese know what to study. Really, the people most likely to take offense to my previous statement are the ones who have hyped anime into one of the most over-rated mediums ever, y'know the people who think that this style is taking over and is rendering all Western animation obsolete. I actual fact, anime is at the very same level as every other style of animation out there, no better nor worse. I'm certainly no anime enthusiast but I don't complain about it either. Both Western and Eastern animation styles stem from the same roots, it's silly to declare one or the other as the only good style.
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fair exchange then a lot of Americana gets exported to Japan and the rest of the world.
I was inspired to study Japanese when I was taking Aikido lessons. I saw all the characters on the walls and something just clicked inside. The study of the language by far outlasted the studying of the martial art, and that's how I got into the act. The thing is, I don't have any Japanese friends! I studied it for five years, but I never used it day to day so... kind of sucks that way. I've been thinking about learning German lately, which is more a part of my lineage (either that or... Polish... nah!).
Tokoro de aikidou mo tanoshii deshita yo. Demo amari takata to omoimashita yo.
Hahaha! :D How'd I do? Ii da ne?!
... close but not exactly. Here, I shall repeat my position.
The majority of any artform is crap: music, animation, anime, comic strips, etc. That is, if there are a hundred American cartoons in production, chances are that any given American viewer is only interested in maybe two of those.
Also, entertainment produced by foreign cultures is generally less appealing due to a cultural divide. Hollywood movies are a rare exception. Anime is another exception in that its movies and television shows have a relatively wide global appeal.
As a recovering sarcastaholic, I sincerely advise "just say no to sarcasm."
They have to give into the tide and maybe it this thread last long enough the counter will roll over. :D
I have a mild phobia of sticky things. I hate touching sticky stuff like glue, hair gel or BBQ ribs. Sticky, sticky, STICKY!! MAKE THE STICKINESS STOP!! :eek:
As animation goes, Bluth is "bad" on a level other productions can only dream of.
those garbage shows on the WB and lame anime shows for kids.
they really are the stupidest plots and everything. I mean come on....fighting with cards....
Those shows are just horrible and their artistic style is nowhere near amazing.
But i mean....is this any worse or more garbagey than power rangers were?
"who wouldn't want to make stuff for me? I'm awesome." -Bloo
When it comes to anime, I prefer a neutral-selfish view: anime in the Western world is a fad and fads never last, no matter how long-lived they seem. There'll be anime without the fad, too, of course, but it's a style among thousands of others.
If future generations of aspiring animators limit themselves to anime style, fine with me. They'll see where it gets them; either into a job, in which case everyone's happy, or with severly limited work possibilities - meaning more open spots for more versatile animators.
As for the audience's perception of animation: 70% (made-up figure to make it sound scientific, but really just an imaginary figure based on personal assumption to illustrate a point :rolleyes: ) of the average viewers can't tell whether Corpse Bride was done in stop-motion or CG. (Or know what stop-motion or CG means to begin with.) In the end it's going to be about the stories, not how pretty the drawings are. They are a perk, but "just" pretty drawings will get boring before long.
Sorry, I infered a part of your statement that on second reading wasn't there. My apologies. But I really appreciate your reading into my statement with wild conjecture and assumption as well.
And if you want to really get specific, it's through the pioneering work of Eisenstein, Hitchcock, Wells, etc. that cinema (including the animations we're talking about) really got developed. Jones and Tashlin learned from them as did the Japanese (who later had their own pioneers like Kurosawa who in turn influenced American directors). It's all one crazy web of influence and to pin it on individuals seems almost pointless when you start to chart it out. No one is taking over anything, if anything it's a crazy see-saw of development as each culture takes turns influencing the other to verying degrees.
I get defensive about anime, because I do see the value in it (as well as realizing that, as Harvey says there's a lot of crap in it as well). Just as I would if someone said that all of the American animation was crap. I like both for what they are. Learning about both without jumping on the "all anime is crap" or "American cartoons would be nothing without anime" wagon with out learning what they are doing right is just silly. Sorting through the huge amount of crap is the tricky part.
I don't like much of Nirvana, Beck or Bjork, but I can manage to separate my tastes (or lack of, some might argue) from appreciation for their talent.
Ugh. How did I let myself get involved with this argument again. Has it been three months already? Tomorrow let's discuss why 2d is/isn't dead and why outsourcing is good/bad.
Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
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I like Xiaolin Showdown. It's a bit repetitive, but it has some effort towards a through storyline that isn't too bad if you take into account that it's aimed at kids under 13. Although I haven't seen it since last year.
Mucha Lucha is pretty funny at times. Cheap on the animation, but some pretty witty stuff. Again, that was last year.
And Yu-Gi, well it's pretty obvious what the formula is and that it's aimed pretty squarely at selling more Yu-Gi stuff, but I imagine that there will be a whole generation of 20 something suckers, er, adults that will be looking forward to a live action movie just like the hords of people dying to see live action Transformers. I have to admit, the backgrounds are pretty nice and they spend a lot more time on camera angles than the typical kid's show. But then again, that's pretty much to make up for not animating but maybe 100 frames for the full 20 minutes.
And generally speaking, no it isn't any worse than the rest of cartoons that kids are given to watch. There's no money to be made in making fully articulated animations for network (or near network) television. Anime is a natural solution. High action, low frame rates = exciting (even if artificially), and cheap. Tie in toys and put enough commercials on for anything and kids will buy it up like crazy. Quality is not a primary concern for the non-enthusiast (ie. kids).
Sorry if you don't like it, but you're unlikely to see less of it until it stops making money or they can figure out a more lucrative way to do it.
Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com
Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight
Wow, you like anime more than I do, Saj. How could you have let yourself become so corrupted, you mindless herd-follower?
(I put quotation marks around the word "bigot," which - in this context - means I was using it metaphorically; although a bigot can simply be someone who is intolerant of opposing views.)
Yes, diversity in animation is good but there's homogeneity in Western animation as well as in Eastern animation, yet you appeared to single out anime.
I'm just happy there are people who are obsessed with animation. People spend much of their paycheck on animation? Hell, I've spent my ENTIRE LIFE on animation and illustration. Have I been corrupted?
How is cartoon animated in India about a masked mexican wrestling school anime? I'm done with this so I'm just goofing around now :p :p
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
Perhaps a little, but that's another thread. :D
And just to get back to the stores. Anime stores contain a ton of different styles, all anime and manga, but there are different styles contained with in that. WB and Disney only contain one, and not much of that preferring to sell clothes and toys instead. I'm glad that these stores are turing kids onto art and animation. It isn't Disney, but perhaps it's time we took a break from everyone learning the Disney way.
Is there anyone from Asia here? I'd like to hear what they have to say about Western animation as a comparison. Being so deeply imbedded in a culture makes it difficult to comment on it. It's very easy to comment on anime since it's not mine and it delves into a societies sub-consious that I'll never fully be able to relate to. I may come to understand it through time, but without having lived it, there will always be something a bit 'exotic' about it.
For me that's part of the draw. It's something that's outside the norm from Western culture. I get most of the subtext and context of Western animation, what I don't get I understand on a level beyond words. It's part of my culture, and who I've become. In anime, there's always a level of slight anxiety (miniscule mostly) as my mind tries to grapple with a different, if only subtle, way of thinking, problem solving, and social interaction. My mind is enaged in a way that it isn't in Western animation (or film for that matter).
But sometimes I want to feel comfortable and watch something purely for entertainment or enlightenment, without feeling that slight unease and I'll watch Western fare. Personally, I'm happy that there's such a large amount of anime on TV. Hopefully there will be a new generation of animators that will be able to take the best of both worlds and make something new. We've already seen it with Samurai Jack, for one. I'm looking forward to more cinematic Western tv animation.
Variety is good, and TV still has it. Anime just stands out because it's different.
Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com
Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight
On a mere "technical" level, Bluth's animation is excellent *cough rotoscope cough* but it seems to me that it lacks soul and feeling. But that's just my opinion. Miyazaki's animation, on the other hand, is lifelike as well, in this case without the benefit of rotoscope, but it can sometimes be jerky. Yet, it has a feeling of space and realism that I just can't describe, as well as a great sense of "weight-from-timing" in certain scenes. And it's just so well-observed. Not as technically proficient as Bluth, but far more interesting, at least to me.
Step 1: set up Straw Man.
Step 2: knock down Straw Man.
Ripping Friends was an awful show when it was on the air, and I can't imagine it's gotten any better sitting around on DVD. Glad that you like it, but clearly you're in the minority, since it didn't pull the numbers to stay on the air.
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