Another wired thread by Bandita... :D
I'm just working since almost 2 years in the business of film, and it's wonderful; a lot of hard work, but it's fun and it is that, what I always wanted to do.
But there are some things which really make me sick!
Here in Germany the "real" film industry is very small, on the one hand that's a great thing, because it's sometimes like family, everyone knows everyone. On the other hand this circumstance makes it very hard to get in! VERY much is depending on relations, and not only on your talent, what it actually should be like!
And like in a real big family there are always intrigues, sometimes they're really just cattily, donig things in revenge or something like this!!
And EVERYTHING is centred about money....
My boss told me some stories I couldn't believe!
These things bother me about animation/film industry, but nevertheless it's also great working in that field.
What kind of things bother you?
mercenary artists who jump ship immediately.
artists that work by the clock i.e. 9-5
people without passion.
how bout you expand a little bit on your intrigues. sounds interesting
Just an example: One Co-Company wanted to knock out our company for several reasons, so the producer did a wrong calculation. You can't expect someone who produces films for more than 15 years to miscalculate about 2 millions!!!
Oh yeah, people without passion!!! and many of them have leading positions, and havn't got a clue 'bout how films are really produced. They just give instructions, and aren't aware of the fact, that some of their desires aren't possible or that easy to realize, or it would take several months(or a lot more money!)!
http://violabaier.blogspot.com/
You should thing about spawning your company or at minimum a project. If you can collect enought talent you could build a nice piece of animation. It would take you years to produce it but in the end look at what you would have.
I'm sorry, I didn't understand that... :confused: What do you mean exactly?
http://violabaier.blogspot.com/
Don't worry about it, that was a bad post. I am not in the industry so I think I will just hang back and read others posting.
Oh, there is a really good article on the internet about the two brothers who are producing "Code Lyoko". The article is about how they got the financing to produce the series. (Now this post is more on topic) :D
I don't think she's equating passion with working 24/7 to get a cartoon made.
I think she's talking about loving animation vs. being in charge of animation but not knowing anything about it.
Companies where there is a lot of money involved will almost always be led by people who have experience dealing with large amounts of money - not by people with experience in that particular field. For instance, Microsoft just hired the former head of Wal-Mart to lead their company. He knows jack about Microsoft and their products, but while that would be helpful, it's more improtant that he has a vision and wisdom for expansion, taking smart risks, watching the bottom dollar, etc. That's worth a lot more to them than someone knowing the ins and outs of Word and Excel. They have craploads of people already who know that stuff.
Animation CAN be in the same boat. An animation company SHOULD be fully staffed with people who underatand the ins and outs of making animation. Is it really necessary for the leader to know the technical aspects of making animation? Obviously, the best guy for the job would be one who can do both, but if you can only pick one, they'll pick the guy with the financial brains. You can ask Phil Vischer what happens if you go the other direction.
Eddie Selzer, Leon Schlesinger, et al, are all famous for how little they knew about animation. Their ignorance was a catalyst for the brilliance that came from Termite Terrace. A smarter person in that same chair might actually have been more stifling than helpful.
The downside of this is when those people claim the credit for an animated movie's success when they had nothing to do with its creation beyond its funding. It pisses off the animators and creative team who deserve the credit.
I can tell you this... if my cartoon gets picked up by Frederator, the credit all goes to Jabberwocky, because without his awesome assistance, I'd have nothing but nine pages of words.
Yeah, but it's those same people who think that it was a good Idea to split the Xbox into 2 versions. Since they had no experience with the video game industry, and most likely had more experience in other hardware fields, they thought that it was a good Idea to create a good, better, best scenerio with their gaming console. What they didn't realize however is that the gaming industry is much, much different then selling things like blenders. They split the market with having one version with a hard drive and one without. That was their biggest selling feature, but now developers are stuck not knowing weather they should support the HDD or not now that not every consumer who buys the product is going to have one, and willing to shell out the money to buy one.
It's the same idea with the film industry, not just the animation industry in general. The producer is the most hated indevidual in a project, yet it's a love hate relationship, because without them there would be no funding. Unless your name is Stanley Kubrick, as a director you have to answer to the producer because it's their money they invest into the project and they want their say as to what is going to go into the movie even if they have no real knowledge of the medium. Not saying that they are all bad, but you can get some that just want everything their way, and unless you want to try and find someone else to supply the funding, you would just have to smile and nod.
Lindsey Keess
Animator
If you think on a global scale, the two-SKU idea is a good one. Why charge the Japanese for a hard drive to make your system backwards compatible when none of them own Xboxes? Sell them a stripped down version.
Just didn't work in the US.
Hm, quitting at Target sounds like a brave move to me, considering the circumstances.
Since it's about attitudes, that's something which bothers me about the movie business in general. I think there are many people in top positions who've got a notoriously high opinion of themselves. Now, animation is about art and artists should be aware of their abilities. I think it's easier to find at least some kind of employment as bad actor than as bad animation artist. Many of today's animation artists in top ranks certainly deserve recognition for their talent - but I've always found it very regrettable if they developed an attitude over it and let it get away with them. It's simply so hard talking to people like that, and partaking in their sometimes immense experience without being rebuffed every other sentence for being just a rookie oneself.
I admit I can get a fat head over what little I'm capable of, maybe that's what makes me touchy about such things. Is it success which does that to people? I wonder what I'd become like if I ever became a bigshot ...
i dont think its a question of getting a big head or having high expectations. its all about passion. the guy doing my productio design for me puts in about 80 hours a week. the guy is just so into what he does and is so well managed that its not stressfull either.
but anyway, isnt this about the darkside of things?
It's all relative, of course. I've met the nicest of people who used to work for Disney, like our own Larry Lauria, or Tash Özgür. Being great animators is one thing, but being great animation teachers to boot is truly remarkable. How much more passionate can you get, doing what you love and teaching others how to do it on top of it?
However, there are those who are talented but won't share what got them there or what keeps them going on the high level they have achieved. Or if they do, you've got to pay a high price in subordination. That's what really bothers me.
Oh, you're so right, Christoph! Where would I be now without my two "mentors" who explained me every single thing in animation since I was 16!??!
The thing is, that our aim always should be to create the best animation as possible AS A TEAM! But unfortunately even in our industry there are egocentric people who always just think of their personal success and money... :(
The good thing is, I've only met a few of them yet. Most people I got to know totally love what they do... a sunny side of animation business!!! ;)
http://violabaier.blogspot.com/
Absolutely, those people willing to share and the huge number of people that truly love what they're doing make it a joy to work in 'da biz.'
Because the biz is such a colaborative effort, those who are truly good at it, also tend to be good teachers, too, or at least as far as the truly talented people I've met go.
Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com
Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight
Well, here's some two cents from someone that's been around the biz for 20 years:
Screw passion.
That's the first thing I have to say. "Passion" has suckered more artists than almost any other trait--because its the one thing that manipulators can always count on.
Passion CAN be useful in the work, but I say play it like a winning hand rather than wear it on your sleeve.
Keep the passion for your OWN work, withhold some of it from a paying job.
9-5 hours? Should be mandatory IMO. This BS about working long hours showing dedication is just that.....bs.
I'm a person first, and a cartoonist artist after that. My family and life is more important to me than my craft, and losing time with them hurts.
I've lost too many hours with my loved ones because of deadlines as it is.
The modern working life already demands enough of a person, why should anyone surrender their precious time to something that, ulitmately DOESN'T MATTER?
Let me clarify that a bit: why should anyone throw their "passion" into a project that doesn't actually come from their own brow? Working on a job you've been hired for means that someone else owns the thing and you, as a talent, are a replaceable worker simply toiling away on the job until its done.
If the project is handed to persons less professional and more indifferent after you then your work can be trashed in a heartbeat--so why place such emotion within it?
The old-school "traditions" of work-place loyalty are gone.....and have been dead for decades now. Your employers almost NEVER show you or I the kind of loyalty or job security our grand-parents once knew--so why should that be reciprocated without due in return?
The new paradigm is expendability.
Unfortunately, my family time is not something I consider expendable. I have to work away from my home and family and I don't like it one bit--i grudgingly accept it though.
The thought has long stuck in my head---that upon my deathbed, I'm not going to lament having spent more time at the office or in the studio.
Animation is a JOB, that involves a craft, not the other way around. I gave up having my head in the clouds years ago.
Lending something, some "passion" if you will is part of the work--but passion as the be-all and end-all is foolhardy.
This might sound like a jade rant, I differ though--its a rant borne or realistic expectations in a industry that is oft-based on fickle whims and trends, where jobs begin from the hands and hearts of people seeking only the lowest bid so they can maximise their own profit.
Playing that game the same way is the only SANE course.
Thinking it can be, or ever has been any other way is, imo, an illusion.
A LOT of people come into this thinking its a "fun" business--mainly because they only see the end product--but its a BUSINESS first and foremost with all the connotations that holds.
Some people enjoy the stimulus of a business environ, but not all business is enjoyable.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Ken Davis, sounds to me like you do have passion and lot of it. I have to agree with you, letting a company suck your soul out just so they can make a buck is wrong. Balance in work and in life.
Let me also add, that I've seen firsthand the many downsides of this business.
I've seen friends becomes employers, then cease being friends because they were now in a hiring/firing position and had to pass over their friends because the bottom-line came first.
I've seen good, decent people--producers, in fact-- work their asses off on projects saddled with nigh-unavoidable glitches only to quit because some slightly-upper echelon peon has the gall to chew them out for the problems.
I've seen fellow talent, taking on the responsiblity for studios and productions costing MILLIONS of dollars wracked with anxiety attacks and losing years off their life.
I, myself, lost a big chunk of my hearing due to stress on a animation job.
I've seen top-drawer talent looked over for projects because younger talent was cheaper.
I've heard the words: " no work coming in this month" too many damn times.
I've heard the words: " its coming in next week" --and it never does--too many damn times.
I've seen friends and colleagues grown from young men and women to worn-out souls in the space of six months--with really nothing to show for it.
I have made choices that affected partnerships and walked away from a studio I helped found because my partner's choices and mine did not coincide.
I've seen and been taken advantage of, ripped off, lied to, manuvered and manipulated and all .........for what?
There's still purposeful and worthwhile craft to be found in animation, but as a business, one needs to have a pretty cold eye to it all.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Thank you for chiming in, Ken. I was starting to feel like I was the only one saying this sort of thing.
When the owners of the company speak of 'passion' and the privelege of working in such a cool industry (I've heard it as an excuse for giving a pay cut when hiring at a specific SFX company), I just have to laugh. Loyalty to the company went out with loyalty to the employee. The entertainment business is one of THE most profitable industries in the world (once you factor in DVD sales, merchandising, etc.) and yet jobs with benefits or long term employment continue to diminish. One of my last jobs was with an SFX company that went through a major contract negotiation that ultimately makes it easier to hire low wage employees and get rid of experienced, but higher wage employees.
And I completely agree with your thoughts on family. Paying for a home and food are the reasons I go to work, not my passion for the craft I use for employment. Passion keeps me working on my own projects when I come home after a long day at work. Passion gets me up early to play with my son before I go to work and take half an hour out of my lunch break to drive home and eat with him.
If I could make a go at doing my own films, I would drop working in the industry in a heart beat. Then you'd see someone truly passionate about their work.
Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com
Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight
Sorry, I wasn't referring to Bandita, but Skinny Lizard's comments (and continued comments). 80 hour work week = passion!?!? I've done it for several months in a row at times and I can tell you emphatically that it is a brain dead style of management that encourages workers to work hours like that. After 40 hours the chances of mistakes due to burn out and general fatigue begins to increase. After 50 hours (and only 1 day off on the weekend) it increases dramatically. After the 60+ hour mark, you end up spending more time fixing errors and trouble shooting than you do working, employees burn out and spend more time surfing the web because work is all they know, not to mention the low moral and lack of trust in a management that seems more concerned in the bottom line than they're physical and mental health.
It's been my experience that an 80 hour week isn't anywhere near the same as working two 40 hour weeks. Many times it isn't even equivalent to working one 40 hour week. Employees burn out, leave the company, and people have to pick up the slack for people getting sick, and training the replacements. Not to mention the demoralizing effects of a management staff that is too stupid to schedule a resonable work week. I, and many others I've spoken with, get significantly more done on a Monday after a full weekend than I do on a Monday after working one or both days on the weekend.
Sure overtime is going to happen, and when it does, everyone I've met will put in the effort, but as soon as it becomes the expected norm, people suddenly become 'mercanaries', or as I like to think of them, reasonable humans. It's a job that I happen to enjoy, but as soon as it asks me to give up my life so that some dick head in charge can make some dumbass quota (because it's the only way they can compete), they can go shit in a hat.
And if you want to question my 'passion' keep in mind that I just came off a job that was doing 7 day weeks at 12+ hours a day, all the while going home to work on my own projects for several hours before going to bed and doing it all over the next day. That's passion, but it wasn't passion for some moron's idea of a job, but passion for my art.
And people actually wonder why others are so against outsourcing to 'slave labor' countries.
Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com
Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight
i think its a bit of a snap judgement Kdiddy. just because i am in India and putting in the time it must be slave labour. well its not slave labour and its not outsourcing. i dont do that.
also i do equate the time they put in as passion because its completely not forced on them. its coming from them. coz the running sentiment is always how do we make things better.
ive arranged for housing closer to the office transportation etc etc to make things as easy as possible. so the guys focus on the work and are willing to give back.
besides what is a reasonable work week? 38 hours if you got to France ;)
they get to go on a weekend cruise. thing is. they work hard and play hard. passion for work, passion for life.
Sorry to equate you with outsourcing and slave labor, my apologies. I'm glad you work hard for your employees.
But you seem to hold those who work for more than 80 hours a week in such high reguard and those who don't want to work those kind of hours in such low reguard that it is a form of pressure to work those hours. Just out of curiosity, do you routinely mention that those kind of hours are normal to new employees? If you did (and I've had employers that say, you don't have to, but it is what everyone does) couldn't that be viewed as a form of force? Peer pressure is a form of force, especially when it's rewarded (or punished) from the management. You've even mentioned in this thread that you don't like employees who only want to work what they're getting paid for.
Yes, I would love the French hours. This sell your life to the company BS just doesn't sit well with me. I'm much more pationate about my work when I'm not forced to give up everything else to do it. Don't worry, I won't be sending you an application any time soon. ;)
Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com
Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight
Funny, I was going to say artists that work for nothing, work insane hours, and generally drive down the wage and working conditions for everyone else. Passion doesn't necessarily equate to slave labor. The production companies are making more than enough to pay decent wages and benefits, especially since most SFX driven films bring in audiences because of the SFX. Nothing kills passion like being taken advantage of.
My biggest pet peeves about the industry:
-No long term employment and very little assistance in retirement plans, like waiting 6 months to start a 401k, on a job that typically will only last 8-9 months at most
- Little to no health care
- Long hours and weeks designed to make up for the idiots in charge poor planning, the following quote comes to mind frequently while working in the film biz: A lack of planning on your part doesn't necessitate an emergency on my part.
- Overtime on jobs that don't pay for it, and how often salaried positions require non-stop overtime
- The industry considering 50 hours a week a good place to start (Dolly Parton's '9 to 5' sounds like a pretty sweet gig)
I'll work hard as part of the team, work long hours to make sure that my part is done, but the production staff assumes this. Questioning one's passion (not saying that you did Lizard, just a comment I've heard before) is like accusing someone of being a traitor/non-patriot if they oppossed the war in Iraq. It's a trick production uses to make up for their ineptitude and get something for nothing while villifying anyone who thinks they should have decent working conditions, that unfortunately too many people buy into. It's possible to work hard and be passionate without allowing yourself to be treated as a slave.
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Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com
Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight
you have to look at both sides i think. no one will work for travel costs beyond say a probationary period which lasts bout 3 weeks (in my company anyway and its only for someone with zero experience) unless say its a Pixar project or something. i dunnow.
but there are so many people i have interviewed with and so many of them are mercenary. they are good at what they do but there are problems. like some wont go beyond the call of duty and assist in an area where its needed (this is not what i do!!) or they want to work 9-5 (i put in about 80 hours a week most of the guys put in bout 70-75) there are some who are happy to put in 48 hours (it just feels like cheating)
i will confess that most of the people i have hired have been cheated by their erstwhile employers in not being paid wages for upto 2 months(india you get paid monthly for all businesses) and i have made it a point to pay them on time so they dont have to worry about that.
Two examples for you.
I have been working two part-time jobs, one at Target in Electronics, and the other as a merchandiser for Best Buy, also electronics related.
Four times in the past two months, Target called my in on my day off because someone didn't show. I've owned a store, I've run a store, and I know that's a tough spot to be in. I never once told them no. Four times, I gave up days off to cover their butts.
So what happens when I NEED a day off? My wife had a Halloween party for my daughter's class... at my house. 15 kids and my mom, who was going to help my wife, bailed on us. I HAD to be there.
Target wouldn't give me the day off. I even found a replacement, then they went and scheduled him that morning so I couldn't use him. My manager said no, she said she had to consider the store first. I told her first was fine, but I wanted to be considered second. She wasn't considering me at all. You should have seen her face when I handed her the keys.
She backpedaled quickly and said she'd make an exception this once, but I told her don't bother. I'm willing to go the extra mile for my company if they're willing to back me up in return. But if they don't care, then I certainly won't. I took that job so I'd be trained when they opened their new store next year. But I told her, if I have to treat my people like this, then I no longer aspire to "your job." And I walked out.
Now for Best Buy, I don't get a lot of hours there. But the merch people (a company called Mosaic is who I actually work for) have been very easy to work with and I like the people at Best Buy. They had a crisis where assistance was needed 250 miles away from my house. I told them I'd go if they didn't have anyone closer, but they had to approve the ridiculous mileage/drive time/hourly wage if I went. They said pay wasn't an issue, so I went with literally 20 minutes notice. I covered their butts for which they were very grateful, and they paid me handsomely, for which I was very grateful.
It's all good. :)
Point is, going the extra mile is one thing. Being taken advantage of is another completely. Don't confuse the two.
next time im in the states im coming to you for some best buy discount :)
here is my bit. ive got 10 people in the studio and we have a freelance production designer and director who come in late afternoon and then all day sundays. out of the 10 people 8 come in. one of them cant because she has to take care of her ailing grandmom. so what does she do, she works with zeal, finishes her shots, leaves them organized so she can get all approvals on the shots and feedback and retake sheets
then we have another guy who comes in on time and leaves on time, then wont come in Sundays because he has other stuff to do and i had to spend time looking up his pc to find his shots coz he didnt file em the way he was supposed to (we changed processes two weeks ago and had a training session) fact he filed them wrong.
i had to call him and get it done. maybe i am being a bit harsh but its just that the other guys go the extra mile or when they cant they try and make up for it without being told. there is supervision for work not for their commitment.
so i try and do whatever i can to help them out, find a doctor, assist with their home loan, stuff i dont need to do. the guys treat it like their own family and their own business, so i treat them like they are my family.
I don't get a discount. I'm a "third-party" employee.
Wow! Ghost I admire your moxie. But sometimes that's the only way you can keep respect for yourself. Good luck. Hope you fall into a much better job.
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