Still Don't GET Anime

babar demonstrates beautifully the arrogance that a large percentage of anime fans display on an all-too-frequent basis. Not to mention having one of the most juvenile avatars I've seen in a long while.

BTW, Tezuka is on record as having said one of his main influences was the work of Walt Disney. Just because you may not have read about it yourself doesn't make it any less true.

arrogance? no. opinion. read the post again, im sure youll see imo somewhere, spelled out for you.
i expected this kind of reply, so i will do my best as to enlighten you as to why i feel the way i do in my next reply.
juvenile avatar? so, sexuality in a decent context is juvenile? its not my fault
you dont like women. im sure a busty picture of the little mermaid wouldnt bother you though eh?

dude, i could care less about tezuka, or his generation of manga, anime. i was talking about the evolution of mature "theatrical" animation in the mainstream context, here in america.

One of my perennial laments as an instructor is when students attempt anime-style films.

I have to say "attempt" because, almost without exception, the efforts fail.
The reasons being are several: the instructors that usually teach them over here have either a outright bias, a "professional" bias ( meaning that they have never worked in that kind of limited animation style before), or are so indoctrinated in western animation techniques and influences that they teach the "western" way. Its not a criticism, its just an observation.
Western Animation is centred around stretch and squash--the very root lesson we all learn is the bouncing ball. Anime lacks a lot of stretch and squash. When a character arrives somewhere they touch down almost weightlessly--for the most part. Anime is more about situations, plots and interplay rather than movement/mass and emotion.
It shares those things, but it leans away from them more often than not.

Students doing anime films with the western style of instruction have films that have their "anime" characters bouncing around with the rubbery movement thing going on. Usually the amount of time for their films is so limited that they neglect to allot for time to add the ubitquitous shadow/higlight-levels that are so integral to the anime look. That and the specific timing on held-cels, with limited movments, the panning in and out of overlays............well, its a style that many recognize, but very few can actually grasp. I see a lot of speed-line scenes, but very few economically animated "held" ones and the disparity in styles is glaring.
At the schools I've taught, students seldom put in the effort to match the detailed backgrounds and paint them accordingly--there simply isn't time ( usually). I don't dissuade students from attempting anime..........I DO tell them to fully analyze the genre and the style and consider how to best manage their time to pull off that style.

The style is trendy, its current over here--I suppose the impressions we old-timers have of anime is the same as the feature animators of old must have had when H&B came along with their limited animation Flintstones et al.
I have to side with some other voices here, I don't think there is anything to "get"--its just another means to get ideas onto the screen.

He was talking about anime here in the U.S., not its entire history. Here it has every indication of being a fad. It's not about six or seven people's perspective, it's about whether or not the mainstream catches on and how long they hold onto it.

he was also talking about the style in general, lumping every example he's seen into the "big eyes, flat face" catagory that most american animation fans feel is the be all end all of anime artwork

Any way to back that up? What anime has this entire group of people missed, when even the other fans agree it has a single consistent style? Is there stuff that's never gotten dubbed or subtitled that's reclusive to even the country or world region itself?

and you were just talking about being sheltered? the evidence has already been posted in this thread by other members, but if you must know, the most prominent example is of course katsuhiro otomo. akira displayed almost no semblance to the traditional anime style, and it was a theatrical release and manga. all of the characters "look" japanese, same haircolor, same asian body build, etc. no big eyes, colored hair...same ca be said for some episodes of robot carnival.

That might be the case, but calling animation advanced in the context of this thread is referring to the actual artwork itself and not topicality or writing quality.

and not frame rate, or feilds/sec?

Well there's the problem right there. You've been sheltered somehow to avoid exposure to any animation outside of one company/union that isn't all that prolific. We have hundreds of companies here, and even if you don't get a chance to see their work, certainly more than ONE major studio produces films the average U.S. citizen can see at the cinema. Meanwhile anime probably has as many or more companies that have only the slightest deviance in character design. Unless there's some way you can enlighten us with visual proof otherwise.

maybe if you live in an area that has indy theatres, for certainly, i have never seen anything other than disney, pixar films where i live in the theatres where animation is concerned. sure, there are all kinds of animation studios in the states, producing god knows what. i was talking about mainstream theatrical releases remember? of course, ive seen waking life, american pop, rock and rule, etc, but they never came to a theatre near me.....
visual proof? god your making it so hard on me....lol,
http://animejapan.cplaza.ne.jp/b-ch/otomo_sp/memories_mva/img/img_episode_03.jpg
http://www.divertinajes.com/cinexin/img/agosto04/atomic0.jpg
http://www.northarc.com/images/akira/Akira.clown.JPG
http://lord.kaneda.free.fr/akira/images/jeunes_de_otomo_petit.jpg
these are just a few examples of one persons artwork, i could sit here all day and dig up images for u, but i got things to do, but yea, i see the resemblance in these images to pop culture anime......lol

Monopoly? Mono=one. There are tens, and there are also hundreds.

really? we are talking about theatrical animation correct? mainstream? there are thousands of companies working on animation for the mainstream theatre true, but they are all out sourced by larger companies like disney and pixar.
the last animated film i saw in the theatres was the incredibles, whitch i enjoyed, not big on 3d, but i liked it, sadly before the film started, i had to sit through the previews. 4 animated films were advertised, all disney and pixar.
4 out of 6 trailers. by the same companie/s (they are arguably one entity now right? the merger?). my point is made. my argument is the context of american theatrical animation. it needs to grow up. and remember, my argument is for 2d animation, not 3d animation, so lets not get confused on whitch medium were talking about.

babar demonstrates beautifully the arrogance that a large percentage of anime fans display on an all-too-frequent basis. Not to mention having one of the most juvenile avatars I've seen in a long while.

BTW, Tezuka is on record as having said one of his main influences was the work of Walt Disney. Just because you may not have read about it yourself doesn't make it any less true.

To be honest, I kind of like Babar's avatar. I may not like his comments or viewpoit, but I guess he is entitled to it, no matter how much some of us may think it is arrogant and ignorant.

I stand corrected regarding Tezuka (whoever that is). That is one guy though, of many who all draw the same style. Is Tezuka the inspiration for all other Anime "animators".

I do not know. I do not mean to sound snide or anything... Not the case. I am being enlightened in some respect.

What's been posted previously has been laughably identical to the point that it confused the argument. What you just submitted was the first thing in this group of posts that bucked the trend. I mean the guy in the last pic looks 8 heads tall, so lean disproportion is in his favor, but at least the pinched-features style is there in the first few. Thank you for being civil in presenting your case. Duly noted.

As for the second point, frames and fields have a relevance to the artwork, because it's how they're shot. The initial comment was about story, which is why I said what I did.

Did it occur to you that maybe the reason Disney movies were in the previews for a Disney movie is because Disney has a vested interest in not advertising the work of its competitors? I've never gone to the cinema and seen trailers/teasers that totally blew off the target demographic of the film I went to go see. I'm actually surprised it wasn't all 6.

No confusion of medium, either. Odds are certainly more in your favor of seeing 3D at the theatre, but the conversation never deviated there.

Well said Ken. For those of us that appreciate anime. It's like loving a great Japanese woodblock print. It's a different style. It shouldn't necessarily be compared to our (western) style animation or artwork. But that doesn't mean it not's sometimes very beautiful.

thank you for recognizing my argument as being an artistic inclination as to what i would like to see in the mainstream, and not an overly lealous venture into obscurity. i wish not to argue with ppl in this forum, forums are for debate. i admit,i bashed disney, but not the integrity of its artwork really, rather, my first argument was subject mattter.
we can pick and choose styles all day long and find similarities in them, but we follow different paths, so the nuances of each style arent as familiar to each of us as the one who follows the style. in my eyes, i can pick out what to me looks very different from normal anime, but ive been studying it and drawing it for 15 yrs. to the untrained eye, it all looks the same. but compare the artwork, and content from, lets say, yu-gi-whatever, and something like masamune shirows appleseed. to me the art doesnt look similar at all. of course, there are some fundamental qualities that make all styles a style to begin with. for instance, by looking at them in comparison, you can tell they are both japanese, but even at first glance, you notice that one is what anime fans refer to as "pop culture" or "cutsey" anime, unlike the second, appleseed, whitch has a very serious and "mature" look to it. the same person who brought us the intallectual sci fi manga's gits.
my beef is with context. i think animation in a theatrical mainstream sense should be aiming at the slightly older demographic of 20-30yr olds, as well as the younger demographic.
a good example of great context but poor animation is the classic heavy metal. it flopped in the theatres, because at the time, americans were less open to adult animation than they are today. but as a result, it has become one of the greatest cult-classics of american animation. nothing like it has since been released in a main-stream format. sad. because we are capable of astounding the audience visualy these days, and shocking them.
when a film has shock value, of any kind, it is set apart from the rest, because it is very hard to "shock" audiences these days. i believe animation is one of the mediums that can achieve this, because of its surreal nature. its easier to make characters believable. gene hackman will always be gene hackman to me, no matter what film i see him in, know what i mean?
american audiences are not as neive as they once were. i think "alien" ruined all that for us. hard to beat that in 1979. very disturbing film at the time.
i think animation can achieve the same profoundness, without stepping into the realm of similarity to other animation. hmmmmmmmmmm......

to the untrained eye, it all looks the same.

Careful there. There are a LOT of trained eyes here which recognize style nuances, etc.; mine included. I can appreciate style similarities within one company's work, but ALL companies. Yes, there are differences too, but more often than not, anime tends to look all the same in some way, shape, or form, especially in the character design aspect. To me, I see all the characters cut from the same mold, tweaked just slightly, and that rubs me the wrong way.

Jafar and Scar looking the somewhat similar in their features (besides the fact that one is a man, and one is a lion) doesn't bother me as much, because as a studio, Disney has its style that tends to show through.

Anyhoo... It it is a losing arguement for either side... Art being as subjective as it is, we all see it differently. While I see tremendous similarities between anime characters, others (somehow) see none.

Careful there. There are a LOT of trained eyes here which recognize style nuances, etc.; mine included. I can appreciate style similarities within one company's work, but ALL companies. Yes, there are differences too, but more often than not, anime tends to look all the same in some way, shape, or form, especially in the character design aspect. To me, I see all the characters cut from the same mold, tweaked just slightly, and that rubs me the wrong way.

im not suggesting that there are a bunch of untrained eyes here. oviously, anyone who subscribes to a forum dealing with something as technical and complex, artistic, and well, intellectual as animation, certainly has analyzed art in all its different facets at one point or another, no matter how advanced they may be as an artist themselves. and certainly, any admin and moderator types here are going to most probably have extensive if not proffesional experience dealing with such subject matter. i make no assumptions.
i am implying that ppl that do not have a great deal of experience can fall prone to the old saying "it all looks the same to me". without giving the artistic side of it a deserved and complete analysis.

as far as character template goes, yes, most anime is based around the anthropomorphic form. this has a great deal to do with subject matter of course. but you will find many , if not more, fantastic creatures, aliens, and majical things in anime like you would in any other animation. forgive me if im wrong, but most american animation uses an anthropomorphic template for its character animation no? every (i hate to keep using them as an example) disney film ive seen with humans in it seemed to follow its own template for character design. so the same could be said for american theatrical animation?

once again, we have started to deviate from the original debate over context.
you see, the problem for me is interest. like the characters you mentioned. as a 30yr old, i am not interested in "moral of the story" conventional, family oriented context where animation is concerned. i want to push the boundaries of the creative process through mind-blowing, epic, realistic plots, that include every aspect of the human nature, no matter the setting, in all of its ugliness, and beauty. violence, horror, sex, drugs, music, love, enlightenment,
war, grief, death, rebirth, even god. doesnt mater if its 3000 yrs in the future, or 40 yrs in the past. im not bashing your interests, by all means, we are all entitled to our own endeavors, but the overwhelming majority of "cute" lil animals and bland and predictable plot and context rub me the wrong way.

Exactly, Phacker. It's akin to comparing that Japanese woodcut to a Rembrandt or a Norman Rockwell; they're all art and valid in their execution, but very different from each other since the artists each come from a different cultural viewpoint.

As I said before, I'm not a fan (although I do like Trigun), but I also don't believe that anime neccesarily lacks anything because it doesn't adhere to western animation conventions. It is what it is, and wishing it were more like what we're used to, based on our frame of reference, is a waste of time.

arrogance? no. opinion. read the post again, im sure youll see imo somewhere, spelled out for you.
i expected this kind of reply, so i will do my best as to enlighten you as to why i feel the way i do in my next reply.

Thanks for again illustrating my point regarding your arrogance. You're not the first anime defender to behave like this, and you sure won't be the last.

juvenile avatar? so, sexuality in a decent context is juvenile?

An avatar that serves no purpose but to show a girl in a semi-transparent bra shaking her boobs is juvenile, yes. How is reducing a woman to moving mammaries "decent context"? I'll say it again - juvenile.

its not my fault
you dont like women. im sure a busty picture of the little mermaid wouldnt bother you though eh?

Right - I don't like women. My wife of 18 years will be sorry to hear that. Nice try.

dude, i could care less about tezuka, or his generation of manga, anime. i was talking about the evolution of mature "theatrical" animation in the mainstream context, here in america.

Yeah, and how the Japanese have it all over us. Right. See, I'm just not one of those guys who equates "mature" animation with naked drawings. If that's your bag - be my guest; just don't try to tell me that it equals "mature". It doesn't.

This is my opinion on the anime stuff. I like some of it and some of it I don't like. Same with western style animation. There is good anime and bad anime just like western stuff.

Some anime shows like Dragonball Z and Pokemon are fun to spoof. I may actually work on a spoof one of these days...

~Spoooze

I stand corrected regarding Tezuka (whoever that is). That is one guy though, of many who all draw the same style. Is Tezuka the inspiration for all other Anime "animators".

Tezuka is considered the "father of Manga", and the man who defined the anime look. He's long dead, but his influence is still very strongly in evidence in the anime industry. In short, he's the guy responsible for what we're currently discussing.

Thanks for again illustrating my point regarding your arrogance. You're not the first anime defender to behave like this, and you sure won't be the last.

An avatar that serves no purpose but to show a girl in a semi-transparent bra shaking her boobs is juvenile, yes. How is reducing a woman to moving mammaries "decent context"? I'll say it again - juvenile.

Right - I don't like women. My wife of 18 years will be sorry to hear that. Nice try.

Yeah, and how the Japanese have it all over us. Right. See, I'm just not one of those guys who equates "mature" animation with naked drawings. If that's your bag - be my guest; just don't try to tell me that it equals "mature". It doesn't.

man, you are retentive, if your "offended" by the avatar, i will remove it. but for you to assume that "mature=naked drawings" in my eyes is humorous. arrogance seems to be 2-fold here. im sorry you want to keep animation a homogeneous genre, thats your deal, but "behavior"? do you have kids? because you sure as hell arent talking to one. i have my views on anime and american animation, yes, and i like anime more, sorry.
again, reducing a woman to moving mammaries? muhahahaha, i happen to love and respect women thank you, as the beautifull creatures they are.and when i look at my avatar, i dont see a degraded women, i see a work of art. so, because i have an avatar of a beautifull woman in a skimpy bikini somehow makes me a chauvinist? like you said, nice try.
look, its not my problem if you wanna watch little cartoon bunnies all your life,
but i had enough of that as a kid, so i moved to something that dealt with better subject matter. you, as you pointed out, have a family life, so its no suprise to me that you shun a lot of the things that anime represents. artistic freedom. to do whatever you want, whether its a heart warming story about crippled kids, or a war torn universe where heads are flyin like wedding rice.
not my fault you dont have the stomach for it, or the visionary perceptiveness to grasp what im really talking about. context.

for you to assume that "mature=naked drawings" in my eyes is humorous...

im sorry you want to keep animation a homogeneous genre...

look, its not my problem if you wanna watch little cartoon bunnies all your life...

you shun a lot of the things that anime represents...

not my fault you dont have the stomach for it, or the visionary perceptiveness to grasp what im really talking about...

Looks like I'm not the only one making assumptions. It's a good thing we're typing and not talking, because I'd find it hard to speak with all the words you've attempted to cram in my mouth...

You just keep proving over and over again what I said several posts ago. Guys like you are so invested in the genre that when anyone even suggests that it might have shortcomings, you charge to the fore and defend it blindly, throwing insults left and right. And in order to make your point, you have to make wild assumptions about who I am and what I like.

You know nothing about me. Your assumptions are laughable. Your vehemence in defending that which hasn't really been attacked speaks volumes.

It's inconceivable to you that I just might have spent some time watching anime and found it came up short - for me. But you seem to have some compelling need to dismiss anyone who doesn't see eye to eye with you on the merits of anime. Let me clue you in, pal - someone else's indifference toward or dislike of the genre doesn't invalidate your enjoyment of it. And your "understanding" of it doesn't make you superior to anyone.

Finally, I never said I was offended by your avatar. I said it was juvenile - there's a world of difference between the two. And even though we appear to disagree on much, you have every right to be juvenile if you wish.

BTW, if you'd bothered to read the whole thread, rather than just jumping in with your assumptions, you'd have seen that I've already defended the stylistic and content aspects of anime. Reproduced below for your reading convenience:

"Exactly, Phacker. It's akin to comparing that Japanese woodcut to a Rembrandt or a Norman Rockwell; they're all art and valid in their execution, but very different from each other since the artists each come from a different cultural viewpoint.

As I said before, I'm not a fan (although I do like Trigun), but I also don't believe that anime neccesarily lacks anything because it doesn't adhere to western animation conventions. It is what it is, and wishing it were more like what we're used to, based on our frame of reference, is a waste of time."
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Exactly, Phacker. It's akin to comparing that Japanese woodcut to a Rembrandt or a Norman Rockwell; they're all art and valid in their execution, but very different from each other since the artists each come from a different cultural viewpoint.

As I said before, I'm not a fan (although I do like Trigun), but I also don't believe that anime neccesarily lacks anything because it doesn't adhere to western animation conventions. It is what it is, and wishing it were more like what we're used to, based on our frame of reference, is a waste of time.

Very well said. You can't generalize Eastern animation anymore than you can Western. It's like comparing "South Park" to "Aladdin." I'm sure this has been mentioned already. ;)

"Trigun" rocks!

Looks like I'm not the only one making assumptions. It's a good thing we're typing and not talking, because I'd find it hard to speak with all the words you've attempted to cram in my mouth...

You just keep proving over and over again what I said several posts ago. Guys like you are so invested in the genre that when anyone even suggests that it might have shortcomings, you charge to the fore and defend it blindly, throwing insults left and right. And in order to make your point, you have to make wild assumptions about who I am and what I like.

You know nothing about me. Your assumptions are laughable. Your vehemence in defending that which hasn't really been attacked speaks volumes.

It's inconceivable to you that I just might have spent some time watching anime and found it came up short - for me. But you seem to have some compelling need to dismiss anyone who doesn't see eye to eye with you on the merits of anime. Let me clue you in, pal - someone else's indifference toward or dislike of the genre doesn't invalidate your enjoyment of it. And your "understanding" of it doesn't make you superior to anyone.

Finally, I never said I was offended by your avatar. I said it was juvenile - there's a world of difference between the two. And even though we appear to disagree on much, you have every right to be juvenile if you wish.

while were on the subject of assumptions, i believe you made the first one by stereotyping me into a catagory of self righteous anime fundamentalists or something to that effect. i mearly stated that i didnt like western animation, if you remember correctly, or as you say, "if you bothered to read the posts", my first post was about the shortcomings of western animation. never did i deny, or was asked about the shortcomings of anime. as you say, assuming that you know me or anything about me is a fallacy.
if i had been asked about animes shortcomings, i would have been happy to give you a list. i feel it has plenty. but then again, were assuming, arent we?
another thing, i aint yer pal.
did it ever occur to you that i have watched plenty of western animation and that is how i have made my own assesments?, of course not, because obviously to you, thats not how it sounded? you have just proven my point on your lack of perception.
but firstly, i have not proven any point of yours regarding myself, because if assumption is wrong, you set the example with your first reply.
i am not here to shoot down or dismiss anyone as you say, looks like your adding some words of your own on my behalf.
i gave you my opinion. if you want to debate it or talk about it, that is what we are here for correct? not once in any of my posts did i dismiss or bash anyone in this forum for their likes/dislikes, (except you) those are YOUR words, i did however, bash western animation itself, because, like the word you are so fond of, for me its juvenile. i respect everyones likes/dislikes, but if
im not mistaken, these forums are for ppl who have opinions, and i have my own. whitch brings me to your remark about "guys like you" and "defend it blindly". first of all, you dont know any guys like me. trust me. second, i dont defend anything blindly, that would go against my very nature of being an artist, hahah...but thats another story. once again, the debate has been avoided. context. here, i'll type it for you again "c.o.n.t.e.x.t"

Behavior leads to conclusions - not assumptions. You came onto this thread with a condescending attitude and proceeded to try to "enlighten" (your word) the readers here. My comments were based on your behavior, plain and simple. You, on the other hand, jumped to conclusions about my value system based on nothing at all. Your condescention continues in your latest post, leading me to believe my initial assesment was correct.

You can have the last word on this - I've wasted far too much on this, and it's clear we're not going to see eye-to-eye.

Behavior leads to conclusions - not assumptions. You came onto this thread with a condescending attitude and proceeded to try to "enlighten" (your word) the readers here. My comments were based on your behavior, plain and simple. You, on the other hand, jumped to conclusions about my value system based on nothing at all. Your condescention continues in your latest post, leading me to believe my initial assesment was correct.

You can have the last word on this - I've wasted far too much on this, and it's clear we're not going to see eye-to-eye.

i came onto this thread to voice an opinion about animation, as the thread topic was based on my area of expertise. (yes, i am a professional). if you take my opinion as being "condecending" then i feel like maybe your a bit too sensative?
ummm...i was asked to provide proof that devients in the anime style exist, and i did. so in that sense, i did enlighten some of the readers here.
my apparent "condesention" seems to only exist where you are concerned sir,
and only in your mind, because i have absolutely no quarel with you, other than the fact that you seem to know everything about me. and every other anime fan out there. if i have the last word, then it was already in my last post. context.

:o

Zoinks! I haven't seen a cat-fight this bad since Fritz tried to snatch some of Garfield's lasagna. :p

if i had been asked about animes shortcomings, i would have been happy to give you a list. i feel it has plenty.

Okay, I'm asking (in order to get this thread back on track). What are some of anime's shortcomings?

An expert in anime, and an animation professional. Do you animate anime? I was always told they were very inclusive about hiring (to them) foreigners.

If you don't stop writing responses that open more worm cans from things you don't understand or have overlooked, you're going to drag this thing out...

Ability and especially comparitive ability have what to do with commercial viability? I mean I can tuck my right leg behind my head, and I'm sure most of the physical education teachers I had in school couldn't...does that make it an olympic sport? Would you pay to see it?

Even if it is a subset, hentai is still comic/cartoon, and looking up bases there are quite a few based on existing shows...some of those shows being U.S. ports...If you really wanna get down to commercial responsibility, tell me what you'd find quicker: Sailor Moon porn or Animaniacs porn?

And I wouldn't bank too much on the rape statement. As you must know being an expert, several regions (and I don't mean just cities) in Japan either don't report sexual abuse from "corrupt cop" issues they have, or don't even have laws against it; statistics you might find are slightly skewed, then, whether or not you're accounting for the proportions of a country with less than half the population we have. I guarantee you we have reporting problems in some ratio, because it makes sense that the system lets crimes of all types through the net, but until I know otherwise the entire U.S. is pretty much anti-destroying someone sexually so it's a bit more straightforward.

ability and comparitive ability have everything to do with commercial viability.if you didnt have the ability, you wouldnt be commercially viable now would you?
tell me again what i dont understand? art and physical education last i checked were 2 completely diff fields of expertise. comparitive ability still stands on the last leg of viability.
i think i understand just fine. you have not enlightened me.....so if you dont want to listen to what i have to say, dont respond.

while we are speaking of mis-understanding, you seem to know more about japan than someone whos actually lived there, like myself.
the instances of rape and underhanded police activity has dropped significantly in the last 2 decades, as womens rights in japan have been reformed again and again due to the increasing demand for skilled employees and civil rights workers. so please, dont talk to me about japanese law, because there is in fact a law against rape, and it is enforced. looks to me like you dont understand what you are talking about.

not quite sure what your second point was, but i can tell you this...animaniacs porn is just as easy to find as sailor moon and or the friggin flintstones if you needed to know. you have once again proved my point that the general american concensus is that comics/cartoons, should remain a bland, uninteresting, banal medium, for "cartoon" lovers. anytime an anime fan opens there mouth ppl are all too quick to point out the worst it has to offer.
while there are hundreds of examples to the contrary.

ability and comparitive ability have everything to do with commercial viability.if you didnt have the ability, you wouldnt be commercially viable now would you?

If we were speaking with generalizations, then of course that is true. Keep in mind you provided an example, so it's implied I'd be talking about that when I make a relevant comment.

tell me again what i dont understand? art and physical education last i checked were 2 completely diff fields of expertise.

Indeed but the principle applies to any job that comes to mind. This might come as a shock, but sometimes people use examples that aren't direct. It happens.

you have not enlightened me.....so if you dont want to listen to what i have to say, dont respond.

If only that was my purpose in speaking; Alas, I have many. I listened to you, that's why I had a response. I'd say it's high time to accept that some people disagree with one another. It's only through conflict that we get resolution.

while we are speaking of mis-understanding, you seem to know more about japan than someone whos actually lived there, like myself.

If I seemed to know more about Japan than you, why would you finish what you were saying by pointing out that your information was more accurate than mine? Bit of a conflict to say how right I am and use "you're wrong" as a support for your argument.

As far as the veracity of what I said, I have several print sources and no doubt hundreds of online sources from the Japanese government down to the encyclopedia to back me up. If you really care about that particular point e-mail me and we can sort it out. I can keep an open mind enough to accept new information so long as the previous information is legitimately refuted.

Again, my comment was about specific regions. To say there is A law and IT is enforced is telling me the outcome of breaking the speed limit is identical regardless of if you're in Bangor or San Diego.

I never have looked for Animaniacs porn, but I have heard on many occasions about anime-TV-based porn without a need to look. It's prevalent. I'm willing to bet you'd come across a few copies at the video store before anything close to say the WB.

you have once again proved my point that the general american concensus is that comics/cartoons, should remain a bland, uninteresting, banal medium, for "cartoon" lovers.

Because I don't think having accepted our association of the art with children, we should use it for sex tapes? How ignorant of me.

anytime an anime fan opens there mouth ppl are all too quick to point out the worst it has to offer.

And where's the mention of the ten-odd people on this very thread that have your back in telling you what's good about it? Or the fact that you yourself and a few assorted others dislike conventional U.S. animation?

No better. No worse. DIFFERENT. There's no way we can have an objective measure beyond technical aspects. Does limited animation use less drawings? Yes, it does. Does that make it evil, or unpleasant? Apparently not 100%, for one because nothing's black and white, but for two because a lot of good people and people with excellent taste not only don't mind it, but endorse it because they find it wholly appealing and entertaining. Is "hum-drum" U.S. animation suffering from homogenous storylines? To some, because they like sharper edgier material, but also there's the 2 billion dollars in Pixar's pocket (as an example) that begs to differ. So really there's nothing to argument or debate at all, because the end result is the same: Apples are not oranges. Not reinventing the wheel much...

Wow Larry, you did strike a nerve.

This reminds me of the old wars on your forum about 2D vs 3D... but lets not get THAT started again! But.... by the way, on that subject real quick... Flash is the future of 2D. There, I said it again.

BUT! You don't get anime? Well, hey, here's what I think. At times, I don't get it either. At times, I don't get american animation. But here's the difference... and the beauty of it:

Animation is an art form, comprised of many, many styles with many, many different heritages and backgrounds. American animation (well, the ol' Disney traditional way) is based on storytelling, solid drawing and character acting. Japanese animation is based on Japanese comics. There. I said it as simply as I could.

Could that be the reason that you don't get it Larry? Are you applying western sensibilities on an art form thats anything but western? Is that it? Or do you see some western animation adopting Japanese techniques and you believe it should be the other way around? Thats how I feel.

Now, I enjoy anime. Its a different flavor of ice cream. I don't wanna eat vanilla all day. Just like I enjoy South Park. Just like I enjoy Teen Titans. Same way I enjoy all the Pixar films, Iron Giant and Sword in the Stone.

Now don't get me wrong. As an animator, I understand that more drawings can give that character more life. There's way more that you can communicate from a simple head tilt or eyelids slowly closing than a choppy, wide eyed, floating, flat character could ever say. I would love to see a Japanese director embrace that. Wow, that would be something.

But hey, animation is changing. You know that. I think its a good thing. Any art medium could benefit from a few folks shaking things up. So if anime is the fad, oh well. Something new is coming in the next five to ten years anyway.

Love you Larry. Love your forum. Miss you too.

Lamont

Three cheers! Well spoken and all valid points. It's interesting to consider how our own comics translated to animation. Consider the original Spider-Man series or Batman: TAS from the early 90s.

An expert in anime, and an animation professional. Do you animate anime? I was always told they were very inclusive about hiring (to them) foreigners.

no no, i am a professional manga artist, not a professional animator. i would however, like anyone who has devoted most of their life to a medium, consider myself an expert on anime, and its history. in all fairness, i must admit that i dont follow mainstream anime, just like i dont follow mainstream western animation, its just not my thing. i am really only influenced and or consider the intellectual greats in anime (shirow, otomo, miyazaki, Yoshiyaki) to be my main source of insperation. i understand the animation process thoroughly, down to the composition of a frame, to keyframing, vector illustration (whitch i am more than proficient in), and camera usage. i just havnt used any of what we call "standardized" software. i am also a professional graphic designer of a little over 6yrs now, and been using computers for well over 10, so i dont think the learning curve for animation software will be that bad. i have played with some animation software, sadly, it was nowhere near as powerfull as i would have needed it to be for personal endeavors.
ummm... as far as foreigners being hired by japanese companies in japan....its a possability for sure..but you must be proficient in japanese. mine is decent, but conversational at best. i have applied for an exchange my sophmore year at sva to yoyogif, an animation school in japan, and im taking japanese at college here so that i will be proficient in it by the time i get there.
its not unheard of for anime companies to hire foreigners, just rare. part of the problem is that attaining permanent citizenship in japan is difficult, but i would say its safe to say that i will be getting married to my native japanese girlfriend within the year, so by the time i arrive, i will be eligable by law in japan to become a citizen. after school however, my friends and i are going to start an animation studio here in the states, with a sister company in japan,
to persue our personal ambitions to bring more mature subject matter to the theatrical screen. my family is in the film business and has close relations with lightstorm, ilm, lucas arts, and speilberg entertainment, so, hopefully it wont take a million years to accomplish.

What is "good" animation really? If you study animation, and know the principles, you will see that what is thought of as quality animation techniques has stopped developing in the 40's. This may rain fire and brimstone upon me, but I felt that Finding Nemo was boring in terms of animation because it was totally textbook and predictable. Anime is more playful in terms of timing and execution-animation is an art form, there are no rules to it, only guidelines. And, being an art form, not everyone has to get it.

Hey I had no idea that Babar was a manga artist..my bad here...You do know what it is like in Japan and the laws there as I dont know much about Japan..I know Godzilla lives there. :)
I will never get the appeal of anime. I stand by my old school animation ways here.
I just have a problem with manga books sold in the preteen area in most book stores in the city I live in. I cant complain to management..cause like every business..its all about sell sell..make money on something that is very popular these days.
I have looked at some of these manga books and how to draw manga/anime ..and I just DONT LIKE IT..

Zoinks! I haven't seen a cat-fight this bad since Fritz tried to snatch some of Garfield's lasagna. :p

Okay, I'm asking (in order to get this thread back on track). What are some of anime's shortcomings?

thank you for asking :) here are my problems with anime

1. there is an overwhelming amount of bad, generic, spin off anime like mecha and card game, and rpg anime. i cant stand this stuff, and dont follow it.
2. anime today, mostly serialized anime, is starting to take shortcuts in the animation process resulting in a generic feel. by this i mean using computer composite backgrounds, 2 color shading and highlight layers for character animation, repeating action effects that are very noticable, and very, verey bad dioloug.
3. not as much money is being poured into the production of higher-budget animation in japan these days. they are starting to slack off a bit, only concentrating on the most notable artists and directors for full length film features.
4. in a lot of serialized anime, they are starting to rely to heavilyon cg as a medium. this destroys the "feel and look" of an anime to me, if its over done.
i like planescaping, and poly painting, but not using cg textures in a cell shaded environment that is hand drawn. im more for "cg assistance" than using it blatantly and obviously.
5. it is true that most anime follows a certain stylistic template for character design. i would like to see this change slightly. i happen to like the look, except for pop culture anime, i dont watch that stuff, and dont follow it, but i feel that a hybrid of american animation design and anime design could produce some incredible results.
6. american anime - anime produced here in the states along with manga produced by american companies. i wont say any names, and im not talking about translated, imported manga, but manga and anime actually made here in the states. soft and boring, with very generic and uncompelling plots, characters. again,this lies in the "context" beef i have with western animation, so given that it is esentially western animation, the beef lays with them as well.

well, thats all for now, i could rant all day about it, but i will save more for later

This thread has gotten way too annoying. Cheers to Larry for getting everyone and their brother to post though. You've created a monster my man!

And where's the mention of the ten-odd people on this very thread that have your back in telling you what's good about it?

Absolutely no need for fans to get up and arms why Anime rules... it's already happening 24/7! Look around you, man! It's all over the Entertainment world; games, movies, tv, comics, "How to draw" books, the net, etc... Even Manga style is evident among American/European shows. So if these other posters keep making all these generalizations, assumptions, judgmental stuff about Japan , about the medium,etc. .. fine! that's their deal, you know, I already got the part where they say Disney's my thang but then, they elaborate how much they're exaspearated they are about the whole anime enchilada.. one guy could not even distinguish Miyazaki from anime, not anime? what else could it be?

There's no need to explain to them over and over on something which is NOT of any interest to them.
If it's really a problem, all they need to do is stay away from anything anime, that's all.

what you'd find quicker: Sailor Moon porn or Animaniacs porn?

What the--? C'mon man! Animaniacs?? try something closer like -- Disney Characters-- and there were made porn in the net, maybe if somebody created a disney type made into porn it would actually sell as much as hentai porn... if they explore something like "Stripperella" etc.. further a bit - they could be onto something. However, there are already existing undergound porn US comics. Still not as available as the Manga ones and they do not sell as good..... the common fact is- there is porn in both Japanese and US animation/comics.. But, the thing is--- If you don't want the kids to be exposed to something you consider objectionable stuff then, you have a CHOICE not to have them. A picture is bad depends how you look at it. there is NO guarantee for a truly humane, moral society even if you keep injecting Disney/Dreamworks/Pixar films bombard them with cutesy bitsy sanitized stories.... the world is vast... there is a real world out there and it includes ugliness (from an earlier babar post, i think he explained it well) ... and there has always been those "very bad things" light years before anime came into existence.

in Japan either don't report sexual abuse from "corrupt cop" issues they have, or don't even have laws against it; statistics you might find are slightly skewed, then, whether or not you're accounting for the proportions of a country with less

Whoa, yeah, why don't you post the evidence to support this? Have you lived in Japan? How well do you know their laws? those are some pretty serious accusations.
I think you don't know squat what you're talking about and have you actually seen a Japanese Manga artist at work?
We could post news stories US and Japan all day but, that's entirely beside not the point-- with or without porn -- a criminal act will continue to occur!

Check your history and study of the Human Behavioral Experience... which is again completely off topic.

Now go ahead and rant all you want and Anime's gonna be here for a long, loooonng, long time , I don't care how you guys feel about it, and I don't give a damn if you don't get it cuz, MANY of us do !!

Here's a clue-- How about lets all just wait till a genre like anime fades or when the FAD loses it's popularity ... until then, it still stands for what it is - a force. And there's nothing further to discuss. Go back to your Winnie the Pooh and let me finish reading "Manga female Characters" book, sayonara!! ;)

I already offered him e-mail contact if it was that important to him, because it was too far off-topic. Whether or not you choose to believe something doesn't change whether or not it's true, so I have very little incentive to care for your thoughts.

No, I haven't lived in Japan, but I've also never been to Alaska. Who wants to place a bet on the temperatures there right now? Crime stats are not an accusation on the country and certainly not on one of its art forms. A few years ago I attended a state university that had three suicide cases. Is it "wrong" of that school to have three suicide cases? Nope. Did they have them? Ask the folks of the kids that offed themselves. J

Japan has an awesome culture today and especially in the past. Animation of all forms has the ability for its merits as craft to be perceived in many different ways. As far as I'm concerned, cartoonchaos didn't leave anything to be said.

Its drawn better.
The themes are more sopshisticated, overall, and they don't always treat the audience like they are imbeciles.
Even comparing something like Pokemon or Hamtaro to Disney's Recess, or something equally insipid, still has the anime product greatly outdistancing the "domestic" production.
North American animation simply doe not feild anything like say..........Cowboy Bebop, nor is it likely too.
Anime is treated as a medium for all ages in Japan, over here animation = cartoons=pablum for children.
Audiences DO NOT CARE about the animation itself, its the LOOK of the shows they like--its why faux-anime shows like Teen Titans are popular here.

I’m taking the liberty of adding another opinion to the pool:

When looking at the animation and design techniques alone, I’m not fond of Japanimation, and for the obvious reasons already stated in this thread. Well, that’s me and others. However, I find the kind of entertainment extremely interesting to look at because it offers an insight into a complex Asian society, its view on art and entertainment as well as its social structures and belief systems.

Consider: thanks to the achievements and influences brought to the Japanese from China, Japan was able to build a highly developed, patriarchal hierarchy during its Feudal Age. After shutting itself from European influences for centuries, the Japanese finally started to accept, then copy and eventually assimilate European ideals into their own culture.

This led to Japan as we know it today: traditional on the one hand, progressive and caught between its heritage and foreign influences on the other. Even though Japan has a parliamentary monarchy, basically a democracy, its social pecking order still mirrors the hierarchical structures it was once built on. Favouring the combined effort over individual achievements, the philosophical denial of self as well as a strong reliance on the performance of duty, honesty and self-discipline (dictated by systems like Shintoism and Bushido) shaped a people of workers dedicated to their tasks to a degree which can border on self-negation. What the Western culture would deem oppressive and brutal is part of everyday life there. Western students who studied the Japanese culture and language for years were often shocked to experience what it is like in reality when living and working there for longer periods of time.

So what does the entertainment industry of such a country look like?

What we in the West see of Japanese entertainment and animation is a mere fraction of the material produced. The Japanese consume comics and animation in a causal and off-hand way: gigantic industries develop new manga, animated movies and video games custom-tailored to social groups, genders, age groups, professions and hobbies on a weekly basis - and are equally fast to cancel them. We have all seen pictures of manga the size of phone books, we all know the Japanese use more paper for comic books than for toilet paper.

This behemoth of an industry is what brought forth the stories and designs we struggle to understand. How could we grasp them without a profound knowledge of Japan’s complex traditional systems? What’s more, I think what alienates us most is the way in which our own ideas are converted according to overall Japanese tastes, its pop culture being a strange hybrid of all manner of concepts.

I think the Western approach to this kind of modern art is different – we expect movies, comics and animation to be labours of love, expressions of individual artists and their creativity. Of course it would be wrong to deny Japan and its animation and comic studios such qualities. But the fact remains that the majority of the material, most of which never reaches the West, is mass-produced and not meant to last to begin with. This doesn’t invariably make it trash; after all, a job well done is highly valued. But to satisfy a huge demand by consumers who buy a manga at a newsstand, read it on the subway and trash it on arrival, the industry adopted a certain production style.

About Japanimation as a ‘fad’:

I don’t consider Japanimation and manga fads as such – they are animated movies and comic books in a certain style and have been around for decades. After all, Tezuka’s first manga Shintakarajima goes back as far as 1947.

What I do consider a fad, though, is the way in which manga and Japanimation are treated by Western pop culture. Frenetically celebrated as the new and only style of animation by some and admired for its seemingly controversial contents and exotic symbolism, its worshippers created for themselves an, in my opinion unimaginative, imitation of modern Japanese entertainment culture. While I’m among the first to say that not all manga and anime look the same, why does it constitute a groundbreaking improvement of the oh-so old-fashioned and boring Western/Disney ways of producing animation to meticulously copy Asian styles? Broadening one’s mind is one thing, but merely reproducing an approach just to be able to feel different? Again, I blame this on neither the Japanese nor their entertainment industry, I blame it on the way we consume it. Far be it from me to claim that I truly ‘understand’ the ways in which Japanese entertain themselves. All I can do is interpret the material based on what little I know of that society. Have I thoroughly understood Spirited Away? ‘course not! Do I know the way in which people of certain age groups or of a different social status converse in Japan and what the subtle lingual differences can mean to the drama of a story? Heck, no! I simply don’t think one can figure out Japan by merely reading manga, watching anime and indulging in cosplay and all that fast-lived nonsense which has become ‘J-culture’. That alone is the fad which I hope will soon die. Manga and Japanimation will (and should) continue to exist as art forms in their own right.

well said, many do not take into consideration the unique influence of the japanese mind set when veiwing anime. i have an intense and emersive relationship with japan, and its ppl, so it is more natural to me to interpret and decifer its nuances. my fiance is japanese, and we live together, so i am completely emersed in the language when i want to be. ive been to japan on several occasions spending a decent amount of time in kagoshima, niigata, and osaka. the japanese ppl bby tradition are art fanatics, as stated. but i dont mean just print. everything is first looked at with an artistic eye. from architecture to gardens, fine art, and your very surroundings, incuding food, has been develpoed into an art form. it was very evident to me on my first trip to kagoshima, my fiances parents house (a modest-middle class home), was incredibly clean and aesthetic. their living room walls slide open on 3 sides to expose a quient, decent sized zen garden of nothing but different sized junipers. amazingly beautifull. their living room transformed into a courtyard of environmental aesthetics and harmony.
the japanese consumer market as pointed out is very different from ours when it comes to comics. it is highly demographicly diverse and offers endless seas of varied mangas and magazines targeting different age groups, interests, etc. it is truly a gigantic financial monster industry.
to give you an example, here is a little known fact > 33% of japans literature comes in some form of artwork. as opposed to the 2-3% here in the united states.

Bash, bash, bash anime all you like,

If you still don't get it by now , then DON'T!

No one's forcing you to understand the "look" or "Pig story".....
btw, Spirited Away was about a girl's turning into something she was not before, learning about life, understanding, more of an adventure/fantasy, the rest just blends into the Japanese psyche. Miyazaki may not be a master storyteller to you but he is to many.. Anime have ardent followers because it's never pretentious-- it is what it is... call it choppy, stiff, anything you like, it'll probably outlast ANY animation style or medium.

From what I gather on this thread is predicated on PREFERENCE.

If you're brought up with the Disney style-- you're probably more used to fluid animation and broad acting so you're honest to what you like, that's perfectly understandable .... It's true American animation have different faces however, when you analyze each studio they tend to have more of the same----- Case in point--- Look at all Disney characters then and now--- some or many look alike. YES THEY DO!
Elephants and dogs, alligators , girls , man.....doesn't Scar look like Jafar?

Alex Toth characters have a certain similarity, so does Dreamworks, UPA , HB, WB, Filmation even Nelvana, Cinar, etc..have their own "LOOK"... Anime looks more of the same because they're all part of the same family , same designers influencing each other and their creation evolved with their creed and set of rules........ you know-- the big eyes, spiky hair, pneumatically enhanced, elongated bodies, basic expression, so what???

Peter Chung, JScott Campbell, Moebius, Groening, Schultzz, the list goes on have their distinctive quality,too... style is style and story is story--

variety is good.

You don't have to get anything when OTHERS do.

Me like anime and you don't like -- simple as that. Try starting your own revolution for that matter, your own story, movement and " character look" who knows? you may start a new trend!

Bash, bash, bash anime all you like,

If you still don't get it by now , then DON'T!

No one's forcing you to understand the "look" or "Pig story".....
btw, Spirited Away was about a girl's turning into something she was not before, learning about life, understanding, more of an adventure/fantasy, the rest just blends into the Japanese psyche. Miyazaki may not be a master storyteller to you but he is to many.. Anime have ardent followers because it's never pretentious-- it is what it is... call it choppy, stiff, anything you like, it'll probably outlast ANY animation style or medium.

!

I knew SOMEONE was going to try to explain the story to me... Regardless of not wanting to hear about it again, as I said, I don't buy it. Next, I am sure that someone will make a feable attempt at pointing out Asia to me on a map.

Regardless, relax...

And by the way... Scar and Jafar do in fact look similar... BUT THEY SHOULD! THEY ARE FROM THE SAME FILM (and brothers, no less)!

We are giving our opinions here... Not trying to force them down anyone's throats. Just making light of what WE don't like about anime.

I, PERSONALLY DO NOT LIKE THE CRAP. But that is just me, and I admitted that it is a preferenctial thing long ago, I do not think that my opinions would sway anyone, nor I am not trying to.

And by the way... Scar and Jafar do in fact look similar... BUT THEY SHOULD! THEY ARE FROM THE SAME FILM (and brothers, no less)!

Whoops! You just confused Jafar with Mufasa. :rolleyes: (Or Scar with Iago). :p

And by the way... Scar and Jafar do in fact look similar... BUT THEY SHOULD! THEY ARE FROM THE SAME FILM (and brothers, no less)!

Um, which film is that - "Aladdin's Trip To Africa"? "The Lion King in Persia"? :)

I think what Wade may have meant is that they were animated by the same guy. Or maybe not, and he's just confused :)

I'd be careful with the word "trend" when that's the only reason 90 percent of the United States even cares anime exists right now.

And yes, those are very uniform styles....but they're also diverse, distinct from each other.....Anime has an entire cultural region with one look....ie no Looney Tunes and Aeon Flux, just a Looney Tunes (so to speak)....

But who's even saying it's a detriment? No one animation style is being attacked or treated in a derogatory fashion...I think in the first post, for example, he said the characters were flat. That's pretty much fact. So this is all really observation. If took a thousand animators and had them animate the parts, which he said is difficult to do, I'm willing to bet there's an consensus that would agree with him.

Not to mention, there is no other place in the world where you can purchase little girls' soiled panties sealed in a ziploc bag for your sniffing pleasure. Quiet a large industry in Japan.

;)

That being said, I respect others' opions and arguements on the "for" side... Watch the stuff all you want, and I will continue not watching it. I do not even like to watch ANY cartoons any more, manga (especially) OR otherwise. It is like I say... When you work at McDonald's do you want to eat a "big mac"? It is the same for me... When I work in animation all day long every day, do I want to go home and watch more cartoons? No :rolleyes:

Babar... Where are the breasts?!

Cheers

Whoops! You just confused Jafar with Mufasa. :rolleyes: (Or Scar with Iago). :p

OOPS!!! MY bad.... Mouhahahahahahaha. Now that I think about i, the lion and the sorcerer DO actually share a lot of features! LOL

Regardless, they were animated by the same dude... Sometimes style gets carried over that way... however, Anime ALL looks the same, animated by the same guy or not...

Anime is treated as a medium for all ages in Japan, over here animation = cartoons=pablum for children.

That right there is the bottom line as to why anime is flourishing and North American toons are struggling. Both Japan and North America have more than enough talented artists capable of creating masterpieces. It's just that in Japan, the bean counters let their artists create art on thier own terms (for the most part) while here we've got waaaaaaaaaay too many unqualified executives forcing animated shows to be money generators from parents with spoiled kids. In fact, upon hearing many of the incidences of producers fowling things up, you wonder how ANYTHING gets through at all.

Although, I must say that not all moron executives should be disposed of completely. Back at Warner Bros. from 1944 through 1958 the lone moron boss was one Ed Selzer. He objected to almost EVERYTHING those guys made back then. But, upon doing so, they stumbled on to a successful formula: If Eddie doesn't like it, it has to be good. And that's how most of their successful characters came to be, Pepe Le Pew, Sylvester & Tweety, Roadrunner, the Tazmanian Devil, and many other assorted cartoons or gag ideas.

A little bit of opposition from the head brass gives cartoons (and art in general) a certain edge that is somewhat absent in environments with total freedom. However, nowadays that opposition has gotten waaaaaaay out of hand. And those FCC fines certainly aren't helping any. :mad:

Larry,
You don't have to get it.. Really you don't, I know loads of people who share your opinion and are "happy as Larry" :D ! I don't get most of it and I don't like most of it, but films like Spirited Away and My neighbor Totoro make want to cry just because they are so beautiful, even though I don't get some of the little nuances in them. Maybe you just have to be Japanese to understand them!

I used to think all anime was like "Dragonball Z." DBZ is probably one of the best examples of poorly animated anime. It's basically a bunch of pans, cycles, still shots, and moving holds. Then "Princess Mononoke" came out and I just had to check it out, despite my loathing of anime. I fell in love instantly. It is just such a beautiful work (I know many dislike the story line--but I LOVE it as much as the animation).
Once I was at college, I found out a bunch of my friends were really into anime and I had to check it out and see what all the fuss was about. Needless to say, I fell in love.
As has been said, many anime series appeal more to an adult audience than American cartoons. Although I enjoy "Duel Masters" and occasionally "Yu-Gi-Oh!", they do not hold the same appeal to me as "Wolf's Rain," "Cowboy Bebop," "Trigun," "InuYasha," "FullMetal Alchemist," and "Rurouni Kenshin." The style and animation-quality vary greatly between these series. "InuYasha" has more holds and jerky animation compared to "Bebop" and "Wolf's Rain" but I enjoy the story. Sure, I pick apart the animation as I watch (I do when I watch Disney movies too) but it's the story that gets me hooked. I also enjoy some of the great character designs. Sure, there are some ("InuYasha") where the characters look pretty much the same except for different hair styles, etc. But some of them, like "Bebop," "Wolf's Rain," "FullMetal Alchemist," etc. have BEAUTIFULLY designed characters.

You can't judge all anime by what's popular in the mainstream nor by what appears on Saturday morning TV. Stay up late and catch [adult swim]. That's where some of the best anime on TV is. ;)

If you want to appreciate anime more - which you probably don't care to - you'll have to open your mind to their culture and the unique character of their people.

You have to understand that not all cultures and peoples throughout the world act and think like North Americans. Japanese love anime more than Americans because it is in tune with their emotional mindset and their traditions.

When I go to a museum and see an exhibit of Samarai armor, I don't say "I don't get that. It's not like Spider-Man's outfit. What's wrong with those people?" I try to place myself in their culture to better appreciate their products.

That's the whole thing though...isn't Adult Swim sort of only showing us mainstream anime'? Most people will only watch English-dubbed or subtitled, and then out of that the palatable shows....so many windows, so many filters. I'll bet sock-knocking material is out there unexposed.

Actually, here's another discussion about anime on another site. Good points are raised by both sides, I think. :cool: