Just wondering if anyone else noticed or cares that today a bunch of years ago the largest combined assault force in the history of the world stormed the beaches of Normandy in one of the greatest battles ever faught. They changed the history forever that day and preserved the way of life we have today. It was the turning point in the war and it was a huge gamble. I am just glad that they had the balls to go in guns blazing in the name of freedom knowing many of them would not be coming home. So whether you respect "the greatest generation" or you are you are a moron and don't care, we should all think about just how damn lucky we are to be sitting here today instead of fighting for the preservation of the free world.
Just my nugget of a memorial to honor those guys.(and both of my grandfathers that landed on the beaches at Omaha and Utah and lived through it. They are bad asses! )
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to us." ---Gandalf
hett15, i appreciate your sense of history and indeed june 6 is a very important date here in europe
but lets keep the history lesson straight
operation overlord was not the turning point in the war (not like Stalingrad was).
It was a huge landmark and a signal of hope that swept through all the ocupied nations of europe.
but the defeat of nazi-germany was already inevitable still it was a very important and most impressive victory
i salute your Grandfathers,
and my deepest respect for them and all the men that joined them to bring freedom to europe
Peter Wassink - Digital 2D Animator
Here's to all who stormed the beaches, dropped by parachute, diverted troops and liberated Cherbourg. Here's to all who coaxed resistance from very tired natives, who ignited a groundswell of passion to liberate (weren't Canadians at the beaches, too?). Hett, I'm genuinely sorry that you'd have to ask if anyone noticed or cared. What a great legacy you have, with both grandfathers veterans of Normandy.
And while it wasn't Stalingrad, pwassink, I wonder if you can say that the defeat of nazi-germany was inevitable because you enjoy a modern vantage. Surely, in the middle of a war, that's hubris?
I entirely agree on cautioning against revisionism, but how do you measure the value of the resolve to liberate when our entry into WWII was not entirely popular, when the leadership across Europe was not always steadfast ... when a psychology is cumulative?
There was a thread awhile ago asking what we'd like to see animated and I said Omaha Beach, among other thing. It is a place haunted by bravery and fear and ... well, those are just words. There are places all over Europe (and I'm sure the world) where memories of noble sacrifice and dedication to freedom are nearly part of the architecture. Those memories aren't ancient memories. They're memories we'll have in the future and memories we're having now. Animation, with its ability to capture a fleeting moment - oh well, it's what I'd love to see.
D Day was important, but many days are important in the scope of history. One of my "uncs" was there.
Pearl Harbor for me is very important also for me because so many of my relatives.. my dad, and several other uncs went and signed up and shipped out soon after that day...even though they were underage.
My Dad and my uncs are gone now. Many because at hospitals their ages were the qualifying unit-- 3 days/bed time in the hospital. No one remembered what they had sacrificed or how they had lived their lives. It came down to a matter of age and profit margin.
But we must also remember that there were many in Europe that were there from day one and fought the good fight. And also those here in the states because the US wouldn't join the battle went to Canada and joined the RAF before the US joined the effort.
I honor them all.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
let me be clear
saying that the victory over nazi-germany was inevitable, to me does not take away anything from the sacrifice of thousends of soldiers from russia, america, britain, canada, poland, france, and many many other countries , on the contrary it deepens my respect.
you are right, in that time for most people it was not at all certain wether a victory was going to be inevitable.
however there were also many people that did not loose faith.
interestingly enough, one of the highest ranking german intelligence officers, Reinhard Gehlen, told Hitler as early as 1942 to better stop now because we can never beat our enemies.
Peter Wassink - Digital 2D Animator
I value the Russian contribution also...they sacrificed much during a very severe winter, but they pushed and pushed. I think it's time we taught the details in school, here in the states. I think it's time we celebrate the generation and effort and not necessarily the the natioality. In each country they tend to celebrate these dates, but all of these people were striving to a common goal. None were better, none were less...their efforts were for the common end. I celebrate all that fought to make the world whole during that time. I wish there was a similar mindset now...but there really isn't a common goal right now. Unless you own oil stock.
They fought for peace. I am not sure what we are fighting for now.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
cjaye: "asking what we'd like to see animated and I said Omaha Beach, among other thing. "
i'v read a lot of history books and books about battles, also about operation overlord, these books are usually full of maps, indicating the positions of the different armies and troops
always these maps are snapshots in time, you see the positions as they were on a specific date.
what i would like is to have a animated map so you can really see the movements of the troops in time.
thats a rather straightforeward wish, but what if the map was interactive and would allow you to zoom-in into any part of the map while the timeline is running, you could go so far as to see individual tanks moving or even individual soldiers.
it would have to be done as 3d animation.
but to create this, and make it truly interactive (the viewer can take any position he likes) is offcourse an impossible task.
still i'd love to see something like this made one day, for instance off a place like Omaha beach in june '44.
Peter Wassink - Digital 2D Animator
That's a really impressive goal pwassink, I wish you luck and look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
I need to watch my Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers DVD's again. They are the closest thing hollywood can get to showing the real thing and some of the sacrifices and bravery those guys had. I guess recently I have been growing in my nostalgia for everything WWII. The whole subject fascinates me. I am trying to incorporate a lot of the ideas of the times and the war strategies into my book. The best stories are always based on real life I think.
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to us." ---Gandalf
Hett someone in your family lived through it. What you need to do is try and get them to talk. Most of the WWII vets won't talk about it, unless you get them off by themselves and you are really genuine that you want to hear what they have to say. It took me years for my dad to talk with me about his war experiences. But know what it brought us closer. I saw him as a young man faced by things that no one should every be faced by, but our young people are having to go through this again.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
pwassink I know Hollywood exaggerates and glorifies many war stories, but they are informative in many ways too. I am less a fan of the action parts and more a fan of the relationships, struggles, sacrifices, courage, pain, and enlightenment that the men(and others) endured. Band of Brothers does an incredible job with all of this, especially the bond and comradary between soldiers. I understand that Americans tend to be ethnocentric (think USA is alwyas the best), but I definately don't think that way. I love USA, but there are many morals and virtues that I disagree with here that I admire in other countries. I know you are preaching to the choir here and so am I, ,but anyone else that reads this might not understand what we both do. The History Channel also is a wonderful place to learn about WWII and all kinds of other events. Less reading I aguess. :) Some films are Hollywood and always the American version, but there are some good films from the German and Russian points of view as well as some British ones (but the Brits are even more full of themselves then the USA is) Schindlers List comes to mind. I can't think of others right now, but maybe I'll make a list of good WWII films later. Anyways...
Phacker you suggested we get to know our families histories in order to preserve them, well my family thought the same thing. I actually know a lot about my families history because everyone in my family was very adament about keeping alive the memory of our past. There are actually two books that relatives of mine wrote chronicling our families (one on mom's and dad's sides).
True Story
My grandfather and his best friend landed on Omaha and Utah beaches at Normandy on D-Day. At the time they did not know each other, even though they were from the same town in Pennsylvania! My Grandpa landed in the first wave of troops at Omaha and his friend landed in the 2nd wave on Utah. After lots of confusion and fighting and horrific stories of seeing friends and fellow soldiers being torn apart by machine guns and bombs they both made it through. They actually met at a makeshift head quarters once the beach was secured. They got in a fight over a pack of playing cards. Somehow they became best buddies and served through the rest of the war together. They both made a promise to eachother though that if one of them were to die the other would look after their families. My grandpa's wife and kids or his friends mother and sister. Shortly after the war my grandfather died of cancer when my dad was only 9. In a letter he wrote he asked his friend to look after his family for him and gave him his blessing to marry his soon to be widow. The first time the friend and my grandma met they all had a big laugh. It turns out that my grandma had dated the friend back in highschool (small world). The friend became my dad's step-father and helped raise him and his 2 brothers until he died of cancer as well when my dad was 30. (Amazes me how they both lived through 4 years of heavy combat and then died from cancer)
Another story
My great uncle (Grandmothers brother) joined the Canadian Airforce when he was only 17 and got into the war early on when it first started. he flew 57 combat missions which is more then twice what is required before you can leave. he was shot down 4 times. Twice over the ocean and twice on land. The last time getting shot down he knew he wasn't going to make it and radioed back to his other pilots
"I'm going down. This is it. Tell my family I love them. and tell them the bar-b-que was great. Now shoot down the rest of these ****ing Nazi's for me boys."
Apparently the part about the bar-b-que was supposed to be a known phrase to his family which he told them at a bar-b-que just before he left for the war so that they would know exactly what his last words would be. Iguess a code word sort of thing so his mother knew it wasn't government bull @#$%. My dad has all of his medals and the letter from the commander that the families of fallen soldiers get.
last one
my grandpa on my mom's side was deployed as a commander of a small frigate. He commanded 200 sailors on a virtually unarmed supply ship. They came under attack twice from the Japanese while they were in a moving convoy with some destroyers. Their ship could only sit there while the battle ships duked it out. The ships actually got so close that they could see people on the enemy ships (which is very close in a naval battle). In order to preserve his ship the best way he knew how my grandpa decided to head straight for the Japanes warships and ram them. He went full steam ahead and actually caught the Japanese a little off guard, because they didn't see the supply ship as any kind of threat. They got so close to the Japanese destroyer that the Japanese mounted guns were mounted too high to fire on the supply ship. The Japanese manuevered so they didn't collide, but the sailors actually exchanged small arms fire from the decks of each ship. My grandpa actually leaned out the door of the Cabin and fired his full round of his hand gun. Those were the only shots he fired during the whole war. The Japanese ships got away with minimal damage except for one direct hit,which did not sink the ship though, and none of the US ships were damaged either.
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to us." ---Gandalf
Hett, no wonder you're writing a book! Sounds like you come from a family of real characters in the great Southern tradition!
Your idea, pwassink, for an interactive map in real time - oh, what a project! - is brilliant. I'm a little more interested in the story of the 'large landscape' - the Hollywood movie's unreliability when it comes to history is, I think, at the root of why I'd like to see some animation on it. Not a long, linear story, but one that shows some context. And not just for Americans. Really, historians - wherever they're from - have been notoriously chauvinistic. It sort of comes with the territory of being a person.
I realize that 'history - animated' doesn't sound like the greatest pitch in the world, but if people could wrap their heads around the basics of the Great Game, for instance, or the basics of Russia's growth and collapse, or even the advance of the Ottoman Empire (snooze snooze snooze if they have to read it in books) - well, it turns them on to so many valuable ideas for NOW. I have a personal - inexplicable - interest in the heresies and their cultural impact LOL!! great at cocktail parties !! - so I noticed when the book 'The Da Vinci Code' turned into a phenomenon. Just can't argue that the book made a difficult idea palatable to a WHOLE lot of people ...
Hey Hett, Your first story reminded me of one I heard about some locals in my home town that I remember my Dad telling me.
There were these two old guys that you could always find drinking together at the bar. I know one was German, but I'm not sure what nationality the other was- from one of the WW2 Allied countries anyway. Apparently, during the war they both had been separated from their troops and one came across the other in a bunker at close range. They instictively pointed their rifles at each other but for whatever reason, (innocence, inexperience, no one else around?) neither of them fired. They somehow managed to go their separate ways.
Many years later, they both immigrated to a small mining town in Australia. They met in a pub and during one conversation, started talking about the war. One of them related the story above, and told how lucky he was to escape from the situation. It was only then they realised they had met before and were in fact the two young men in that trench.
I'm sure there's thousands of stories like that one, but this one really touched me, so I thought I'd post it up here.
Thank you to the men and women who sacrificed and continue to sacrifice in the name of freedom. I truly hope that one day the world can get along... even if that seems so impossible right now.
yep, I agree with that.
I really do like History, but what I'm often bored with is the - supposedly - independent "point of view" some historian said they have used when writing their books or study their case.
In real fact, it's never the case. You can not be independent, since people are somehow a product of their own culture. Cultural background are always there, somewhere, in our mind (think about 'stereotypes' for instance).
Talking about WWII will always be difficult because of the huge number of nations involved. Sure, the German point of view will highly differ from that of French, Dutch or Belgian (In one case you have the conqueror in the other you have the victims).
But the same will be with British historians and American historians. True, they were on the same side, but they react differently about war since British had the war on their doorstep (blitz of London), American never fought on their own ground, but they were treachously attacked in 1941 in Pearl Harbour - yet they were not ennemies of the Japanese at all at the time.
I think all of that kind of things work in your mind when you try to study or write a book on a part of History - even inconsciously.
Concerning what Pwassink was saying about the "turning point" of the war it's true that the D-Day was not THE turning point of the war, it was ONE in a series.
The first real turning point was the aerial fight between British and German aviation - in that battle, Britsh won and the German loosed a lot of their best pilots. Because of that Hitler had a lot of airplane but not enough pilot to use them. The turning point is the fact that the Air was from that time on dominated by allied aviation. And we know that it plays a huge role in D-Day.
The second turning point was the Atlantic Battle when American and British fought against German submarins. German loosed and Allied won. From there on Americans could without problem transfer their soldier in England in preparation of the D-Day.
The third turning point was the Russian Campain of Hitler where he loosed is better soldier. And because of is choice to attack Stalingrad - Stalin seeing that as an insult for himself - Hitler had to fight against one of the biggest army in the world : the Red army. Another ennemy was unexpected : A Harsh Winter. The Russian were prepared, not the Germans. a second front was open who would play a great role in the D-Day.
The fourth turning point was, indeed, the D-Day hitself. But the D-Day was possible because three other had already happend. The Allied forces could never come in Normandy if the Russian, for instance, had not open a second warfront in the East. ith the Russian on one extreme, and the Allied Forces on the other side, the German army was totally divided, and so weakened.
The D-Day story is a complicated one since, as I said above, so many many countries were involved... and so many people.
The question is : have we, today, really learn the lesson of the past - so it could never happen again? Seeing the world around us, my personal answer will be NO. But it's my on point-of-view.
but Hett please be aware,
as beautifull and realistic as these films are (i was really impressed with Band of Brothers)
they are films and NOT the real thing,(i know you know this)
generaly speaking i think its very easy to let hollywood skew ones view on history,
film stories are not good places to find facts
you have to read books if you want to know what actually happend.
but in case of Saving private Ryan watching the film gives you a very strong feeling of what happened
i fear for instance that because of a film like Saving private Ryan lots of american kids will be thinking that the invasion of Normandy was an american operation.
when you start to think of it its rather scary, the power of films.
the images and ideas they can put in peoples minds.
(and this on a subconsious level ,where they are most dangerous,)
for instance during the years of the cold war when hollywood would produce many many actionfilms that played against the backdrop of the sovjet atomic threat, these films would invaryably portray the level of the russian technology as equal or even superior to that of the usa
(famously the shiny underground bunkers with sliding metal doors and huge computerscreens) while in reality the sovjets arsenal was controled in a very low-tech way.
i'm not saying the threat wasn't real but Hollywood did put stuff in our heads that had nothing to do with reality
(funny that right in this period the american president happened to be a guy out of Hollywood, god bless his soul)
Peter Wassink - Digital 2D Animator