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A more detailed intro

Hi

I became hooked on the dream when I saw a documentary on TNT about the history of Bugs Bunny and the Warner Bros. animation studio. I like Don Bluth films, I own The Point and Yellow Submarine, and my favorite cartoons are Real Ghostbusters and MegasXLR.

I've taken a couple art and animation classes over the years, I went to a 2 yr school, but they taught me more graphic design than animation (grrr..). I wasn't even able to get a graphics job, unfortunately. I would like to go back to school, but I'm afraid of getting burned again. I've been trying to freelance here in Pittsburgh, but there just isn't a big demand for art in general. The couple clients I have had were mostly from outside the state. My site is http://owlfeathersinc.com

I've wasted 5 years of my life not working my way to my dream job, and this is the year I want to change that. So I hope I can find some helpful information and friends here.

Katie

Hi

I've taken a couple art and animation classes over the years, I went to a 2 yr school, but they taught me more graphic design than animation (grrr..). I wasn't even able to get a graphics job, unfortunately. I would like to go back to school, but I'm afraid of getting burned again. I've been trying to freelance here in Pittsburgh, but there just isn't a big demand for art in general. The couple clients I have had were mostly from outside the state. My site is http://owlfeathersinc.com
Katie

Katie, I went to your website and had a look at what all you've done. Let me be very frank.. I would expect much more from any of my students who's spent 2 years at my place. So either the school was real bad or you didn't work hard enough. If the school was real bad, you'd still should be doing much more.. but if you didn't work hard - then your soul is not into animation!

If you still feel that you need a second chance to prove yourself. Go take the first school bus.. maybe confirm about the school first.. but finally work hard really hard.. and then when you say you're ready.. post your work here or on your website..

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Thanks. Thank you. I've been waiting for someone to say something like this. I'm surrounded by people who always tell me my stuff looks great, and I know that it isn't. I've also been told I should just cut off my drawing hand and die lonely.*sigh*

I feel like it was a combination of both the school and I. There was a high turn around rate for the teachers (which is a little strange?) some didn't even have replacements, and we'd be told to do things out of a workbook that weren't going to be graded. It just wasn't very challenging. I know a lot of people from my class that are in the same boat as myself, so I 'm inclined to think it wasn't all me. Then I guess a combination of my lacking skills and the unintentional 'they don't really care, why should I?' air....brings us up to speed. Part of the apathy was that they told me I would be learning more animation than I did, I got two classes (one flash, one 3-d) the last quarter/term I was there, both I felt were taught to us like a 'courtesy' to our portfolios, or as some attempt to make us more marketable in the industry. Someone made commission on my back. Why I didn't just quit and try someplace else, I really have no idea.

I don't want to be mediocre. This sounds silly now, but I've been afraid I'm too old(25), or too poor to take classes to get where I want to be. I've been looking at some of the online options I've seen around here, and there's a class I've already signed up for online for flash.

Point is I don't like where I am. This year I resolved to change that.

PS ~ I forgot to mention that my school (er, branch of school) is no longer in business, due to low enrollment and word-of-mouth disappointment.

their is lot's of free stuff available
u can learn it from there .
for animation u should have look on Richard William's ''ANIMATOR SURVIVAL KIT''.

their is lot's of free stuff available
u can learn it from there .
for animation u should have look on Richard William's ''ANIMATOR SURVIVAL KIT''.

Cool, thanks. I probably ought to start with some drawing basics too.

I don't want to be mediocre. This sounds silly now, but I've been afraid I'm too old(25), or too poor to take classes to get where I want to be. I've been looking at some of the online options I've seen around here, and there's a class I've already signed up for online for flash.

Hi Katie-

Mediocre is a "state of skill", something that your state of mind can alter with work.
At age 25..........pfft......you are not too old. C'mon--the journey is just beginning here.
As far as material to help you, this site, and others on-line have a lot of info available. There's threads in these forums that might give you some insight--some are stickied, some you'll have to dig for.

Here's my two cents: if you think a school will save your work, think again.
They can help guide you, but very, very few have the curriculum ( IMO) to train you from the ground up.
You have to bring something to the table and be prepared to meet the curriculum and instructors halfway, if you are to improve.

Now, as harsh that sounds, I say it for a reason.
Most the development of an artist comes from self-exploration, not institutional instruction. Developing your own skills with observation, evaluation and interpretation will carry you further than any program can.
Instruction can "whap" you on the side of the head a bit--to steer you in the right direction, but you already need to be pretty much on course yourself.
Its VERY possible to self-educate oneself on the craft today, simply because of the wealth of how-to materials out there now. The big myth that gets tossed around is that all these art colleges have something to offer student that they cannot get anywhere else--that there is this house of special secrets within their walls. Sorry, that's pure bullshit. There's no reason in the world that an artist with access to a computer cannot tap into all the material that abounds out there and learn on their own. There's certainly more material now than when I started in the biz in 1985, and I am self-taught.
Schooling CAN help though, if you are a artist at a certain (near professional) level, or can muster a certain degree of focus in solving drawing problems.
Of course, finding the right school makes a difference.

Obviously, if a school is managed badly, then get the hell out.
It seems like almost any dickleshit these days can put out a shingle and say they are running an animation school.
Screen a school like you'd screen buying a house--check the joint out and spend some time asking questions. Insist upon communicating with the alumni of the school, to see if they are working in the biz. If the school cannot offer you an alumni body to consult with, then they are just not worth your time.

Now, looking over your work quickly, I can evaluate some things that might help you.
In my professional opinion, concentrate on trying to duplicate some the work and styles of establish art/imagery that you like. That is to say copy some artists work that you admire.
There's a host of reasons WHY this should be done, but I'll save the explanation for another time, if the explanation has not already been written in these forums by myself or someone else--but.......proceeding this way will get you focused on achieve professional-looking work sooner.

Concentrate on duplicating the LINES, SHAPES and volumes of the images you like. That is to say, make your lines thick and thin just like those of the image you are studying. Duplicate this exactly. Strive to match the same shapes and volumes. Trace the images if you need to.
Do this as often as you can to get your own hand and eye accustom to the patterns of those lines, the design sense and "logic" of those shapes and the 3D suggestion behind those volumes.
This is the learning curve that you should be on here.

I'm talking about duplicating strokes of lines EXACTLY, in the same supple manner the original artist applied them.
The aim here is to not just draw, but to draw at a professional level.

Forget all the paradigms about your own work and what came before.
Attack this kind of thing boldly and without fear.
The biggest obstacle you face is in "seeing" what you need to see in the work you are studying. The lesser obstacle is being able to translate that to your own work, and THEN extrapolate that to create your own original images from then on.
Keep in mind that there's no rights or wrongs here, only discoveries.

The last and biggest bit of advice I can give you, give anyone here is to make use the resources available to you. Did you know most people don't?
They are too intimidated, or too unfocused to ask questions, or even think clearly about what the problems are that are challenging them.
Ask your questions--be ruthlessly persistent in this.
Someone will answer them, and if not here.....ask elsewhere, and refine the questions if needed, until you get answers you can use.
The only way you can fail is to give up.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Now, as harsh that sounds, I say it for a reason.
Most the development of an artist comes from self-exploration, not institutional instruction. Developing your own skills with observation, evaluation and interpretation will carry you further than any program can.
Instruction can "whap" you on the side of the head a bit--to steer you in the right direction, but you already need to be pretty much on course yourself.
Its VERY possible to self-educate oneself on the craft today, simply because of the wealth of how-to materials out there now. The big myth that gets tossed around is that all these art colleges have something to offer student that they cannot get anywhere else--that there is this house of special secrets within their walls. Sorry, that's pure bullshit. There's no reason in the world that an artist with access to a computer cannot tap into all the material that abounds out there and learn on their own. There's certainly more material now than when I started in the biz in 1985, and I am self-taught.
Schooling CAN help though, if you are a artist at a certain (near professional) level, or can muster a certain degree of focus in solving drawing problems.
Of course, finding the right school makes a difference.

Not harsh at all. Like I said, I felt a little burned by my previous experience, which really was a result of a combination of things. I used to really believe the school made the difference. I still kinda feel that way, what with people telling me "Oh, go to this school, it's tight with Pixar, or go to the Disney school, blah blah". The reality is, as you say, that just because I go to some school with ties to companies, that doesn't mean that I will end up working for said company. That and the people telling me this are not people who know the real workings of the industry.

Now, looking over your work quickly, I can evaluate some things that might help you.
In my professional opinion, concentrate on trying to duplicate some the work and styles of establish art/imagery that you like. That is to say copy some artists work that you admire.
There's a host of reasons WHY this should be done, but I'll save the explanation for another time, if the explanation has not already been written in these forums by myself or someone else--but.......proceeding this way will get you focused on achieve professional-looking work sooner.

You had mentioned this very early on in the 'So you want to be an animator' thread. I was intrigued and meant to bring it up. For example, I mentioned I liked Real Ghostbusters, I also know where to find copies of character designs from the show. What you would then be asking me, is to trace, to the letter, these characters and when I understand and can duplicate them with ease, to maybe throw in some or Chuck Jones or Genndy Tartakovsky stylings, provided that I practiced them also.

There was something else I wanted to ask, thought I don't exactly remember the context... But you mentioned something about figure drawing, is it, or is it not important? If it is, should it be practiced in tandem with this tracing thing, or be set aside before or after? That's part of what set me off on this tangent of self improvement. My 2nd job is as an art model, and while I'm posing I just look at all the students (without moving, of course), young and old, and think "man, these lucky S.O.B.s...doing art and stuff."

The last and biggest bit of advice I can give you, give anyone here is to make use the resources available to you. Did you know most people don't?
They are too intimidated, or too unfocused to ask questions, or even think clearly about what the problems are that are challenging them.
Ask your questions--be ruthlessly persistent in this.
Someone will answer them, and if not here.....ask elsewhere, and refine the questions if needed, until you get answers you can use.
The only way you can fail is to give up.

I will try my best. I must say I do feel a little overwhelmed already from the information I've absorbed thus far. I can understand why someone would give up. There are almost too many options, and "what should I do first?" can be a very lethal question.

The reality is, as you say, that just because I go to some school with ties to companies, that doesn't mean that I will end up working for said company. That and the people telling me this are not people who know the real workings of the industry.

What good would it be for an artist to attend such a school if they lacked the talent to work at those studios upon graduation anyways? Conversely, those studios to NOT hire preferentially from those schools--they hire the most qualified REGARDLESS of where the artist went to school.
The school don't mean nuthin.

You had mentioned this very early on in the 'So you want to be an animator' thread. I was intrigued and meant to bring it up. For example, I mentioned I liked Real Ghostbusters, I also know where to find copies of character designs from the show. What you would then be asking me, is to trace, to the letter, these characters and when I understand and can duplicate them with ease, to maybe throw in some or Chuck Jones or Genndy Tartakovsky stylings, provided that I practiced them also.

I suggest to pick imagery that is probably more rough than finished, because rough linework tends to be more expressive and revealing than clean-up lines--and its also more interesting to look at.
Most cleanup lines these days are dead-single weight lines and........frankly just boring shit.
I prefer lines like the on hand inked and painted days, or those you can get with FLASH-something that has some dimension to it. Its harder to achieve properly, but it adds soooo much appeal to a drawing.

Use whatever artists material you like, and do try for a variety of styles, including some outside of your usual comfort zone--say Jack Kirby, Charles Schulz, Alex Toth etc. Once you get hired, you'll be working on OTHER artists designs and styles and seldom your own anyway........so might as well get used to the versatility.

There was something else I wanted to ask, thought I don't exactly remember the context... But you mentioned something about figure drawing, is it, or is it not important? If it is, should it be practiced in tandem with this tracing thing, or be set aside before or after?

Figure drawing is important. Its important because its considered a measurable standard of drawing ability, one that is easy to gauge at a glance.
The hand/eye skills that allow you to draw the human figure with accuracy and appeal also allow you to draw anything else with the same degree of skill.
The same mindset that you draw the human figure with is what you use to draw ANY cartoon character wit--there's no artistic distinction between them.
My advice is to practise it in tandem with other drawing, but to use either drawing experience as a exercise in expanding how you approach the act of drawing.
Do not worry about creating good images at the start........the first stuff always sucks. concentrate more on the procedures and the neurology--that is creating the drawing motions: the strokes--that create the proper lines to define the forms. Take a look at Glen Keane's rough studies for Tarzan.

I must say I do feel a little overwhelmed already from the information I've absorbed thus far. I can understand why someone would give up. There are almost too many options, and "what should I do first?" can be a very lethal question.

Yes, it IS overwhelming.

That is the next challenge an artist faces on this road.
Here's the key, IMO:
Intelligent focus.

You need a bit of a plan, and a bit of smarts in going about it.
The usual advice people give is to "draw hands, or draw boats, or draw landscapes or horses or Ren and Stimpy or.....blah, blah, blah..."
Its usually stuff that the artist has not drawn much of before, does not like drawing, and is not able to sustain drawing over and over.
THAT gets overwhelming, because right away you get dropped outside of your comfort zone. THAT where an artist gets intimidated, and then emotionally frustrated to the point they give up.

The solution is to chunk things down intelligently.
The "intelligen" part is to recognize that you are already doing something successfully. We all have something we are an expert at drawing--SO DO NOT STOP DRAWING THAT!
Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel drawing all this stuff you don't feel you draw well, instead take what you already feel you draw well and ADD to it.
That is........if you can draw a cartoon character pretty good, but your backgrounds are shit......draw the character and add a bit of a tree or a fence--something simple enough to tackle, yet gives a good result when pulled off.
What this does is increase your "visual vocabulary": the numbers of things you can draw successfully. Each time you expand the new matter differently, exploring and adding in relevant things.
Keep the stuff in the realm of your interests at first. If you like science fiction, there's zero purpose jumping into drawing Old West imagery or French Aristocracy costumes--unless you dig those things.
Follow your whims.
This way the process stays fun, stays interesting.
If its fun, you'll be engaged, and you'll remain curious and become bold.
That'll keep you drawing and learning....which is the whole idea.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

I suggest to pick imagery that is probably more rough than finished, because rough linework tends to be more expressive and revealing than clean-up lines--and its also more interesting to look at.
Most cleanup lines these days are dead-single weight lines and........frankly just boring shit.
I prefer lines like the on hand inked and painted days, or those you can get with FLASH-something that has some dimension to it. Its harder to achieve properly, but it adds soooo much appeal to a drawing.

Having found a batch of those Tarzan studies, I understand what you're getting at in both the tracing and figure study exercises.

The solution is to chunk things down intelligently.
The "intelligen" part is to recognize that you are already doing something successfully. We all have something we are an expert at drawing--SO DO NOT STOP DRAWING THAT!
Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel drawing all this stuff you don't feel you draw well, instead take what you already feel you draw well and ADD to it.
That is........if you can draw a cartoon character pretty good, but your backgrounds are shit......draw the character and add a bit of a tree or a fence--something simple enough to tackle, yet gives a good result when pulled off.

Only a character(s) established by someone other than ourselves?

Finally, everyone is not working on projects tagged "hollywood" and it doesn't matter at all.

As long as I'm animating, or somehow remotely close to it. It has been said elsewhere that it's better not to have too narrow a focus job-wise.

Only a character(s) established by someone other than ourselves?

Nah, draw whatever character warms your heart, whoever you care to draw--your own or someone else's.
The idea is to keep drawing, and to keep it fun/interesting so you will keep drawing. If you have an emotional interest in what you are drawing, it'll be that much easier and enjoyable.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Ok. So I've been tracing some of Glen Keane's Tarzan sketches. I tried sticking to the really sketchy ones to start to find all the forms and shapes, and I'm beginning to notice that the more I do them, the cleaner my finished trace becomes. Is this a good thing? Should I curb this growing tendency to smooth/clean up these images myself?

I don't think I'm getting the head and face down yet, and sometimes I get a little confused on the hands and feet. (I did also make a copy of just his hand and feet studies) I've also tried just drawing the character freehand, which is nowhere near perfect, but I am trying to use what I'm picking up from tracing, and I do feel a difference.

I feel pretty good that I've been using a new pencil for this, and the eraser is still untouched. I'm usually a real heavy-handed sketcher, but I've been trying harder not to be.

Ok. So I've been tracing some of Glen Keane's Tarzan sketches. I tried sticking to the really sketchy ones to start to find all the forms and shapes, and I'm beginning to notice that the more I do them, the cleaner my finished trace becomes. Is this a good thing? Should I curb this growing tendency to smooth/clean up these images myself?

I don't think I'm getting the head and face down yet, and sometimes I get a little confused on the hands and feet. (I did also make a copy of just his hand and feet studies) I've also tried just drawing the character freehand, which is nowhere near perfect, but I am trying to use what I'm picking up from tracing, and I do feel a difference.

I feel pretty good that I've been using a new pencil for this, and the eraser is still untouched. I'm usually a real heavy-handed sketcher, but I've been trying harder not to be.

Use your senses and common sense, and trust your instincts.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Well you have given here a good idea.keep up posting.thanks:):)

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I probably ought to start with some drawing basics too.
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I probably ought ipad case to start with some drawing basics too.
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Yes, i's vry important.

seriously it's awesumn Richard william's " Animator Survival Kit " :)

their is lot's of free stuff available
u can learn it from there .
for animation u should have look on Richard William's ''ANIMATOR SURVIVAL KIT''.

Thanks. Thank you. I've been waiting for someone to say something like this. I'm surrounded by people who always tell me my stuff looks great, and I know that it isn't. I've also been told I should just cut off my drawing hand and die lonely.*sigh*

Thanks for taking it in the right spirit.

Well you need an action plan right away. First, decide whether you understand enough about animation to:
1. decide what to study
2. What sequence of study to follow
3. Work hard all by yourself
4. What deadlines to set yourself
5. Make correct reviews about your work
6. Skip a lot of parties and socializing to meet your deadlines

If your answer is "YES" to all of the questions above, you do not need to go to a school

If the answer is "NO" to one or more questions, you need someone who has a "YES" to all of these. Now this someone could be a mentor on a forum. Usually it is not easily imaginable to be able to find someone give you so much time over a long period of time unless they are out of work (doubtful usually even if they are out of work).

I've been looking at some of the online options I've seen around here, and there's a class I've already signed up for online for flash.

This is where a school fits in. Go for an online school or a real one depending on your funds. Ken is correct that the tie-ups don't matter. Even my school passes out duds and deadly animators from the same batch.

I feel like it was a combination of both the school and I.

Most of the people who fail, blame their teachers along with themselves. Get hold of yourselves - and accept that you didn't put all that you were capable of into it. Have you heard of a successful person blame anyone but himself of his failures? Every person with sustained effort can master anything unless they have a physical disability that is in their way. Success is not about someone else but you, and so is failure. I don't disagree that there could be a bad school, however, when people with no formal education can make it, so can you with a bad school. About the bad school, yes time would take care of that. So, forgive that school and get moving..

And do read good autobiographies.. maybe start with Mahatma Gandhi's "My experiments with Truth" to learn how success is built in small pieces.

Finally, everyone is not working on projects tagged "hollywood" and it doesn't matter at all.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

A more detailed intro

So were the only ones that matter... great

Im not really sure what the difference is, but I think the blue one looks better. The colours look bolder and more interesting. Im not so keen on the orange one. Looks a bit dull.

A more detailed intro

Howdy Yall

Im Brendan, an Urban Planning student from Cincinnati, Ohio. This is the first fourm I have joined. I usually dont get in to these kind of things but I was seeking some help with my first hard core computer project.

Thanks for this resource.

Brendan

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A more detailed intro

Pete. I always lose track of time. Have a great time anyway. Hope you get that call tomorrow morning. Ive got me toes crossed.

PS - Any chance of making your avatar just a bit bigger? Cant see much with me glasses on
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Website I designed for payday advance company.

A more detailed intro

The idea of an i-SOBOT FAQ is a good idea too. I think it could be handled the same way as a detailed command/action list. If each person chose one topic, wrote it up, and posted it to the same thread, we would end up with a nice FAQ and new detailed Action/Command list. When I get some time here, Ill choose one topic, explore it, and write it up for posting.

humanoido

I'm sorry to have bothered you£®

A more detailed intro

Welcome aboard Emma,

Were delighted to have you - tell us more about you - one of the things about this site is that its about people and the conversations between people. Sounds like you have an interesting job working with start ups. I do alot of that kind of work myself - what do you find the most rewarding thing about it?

All the best
Finola
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