Search form

Classical Drawing and Animation Are The Foundation

104 posts / 0 new
Last post

teaching in India is such a scam and the students in general so unaware that only a handful actually make any sort of an impact in the long run.

India bashing again? Well, I am not interested in regressive thought. The world finds its own ways based on economics and needs. And does need its critics. But, finally only players matter!

About the curriculum, go check the Arena DAE curriculum, which has complete sketching skills, shading, shadows, 1-2-3-4 point perspective, X-Sheet, Human Anatomy (male, female, child, Animal), Storyboarding, keyframes, laddering, inbetweens, ink and paint, backgrounds, timing, but also has scriptwriting and acting, well I can go on.. but I have made my point.

The discussion is not what is, but what must be.... I shall continue my discuss with Ken over this point.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Ken, going by your Pixar example, do you remember that Walt had Charlie Chaplin and other people do complete scenes, before artists were able to capture the essence of the scene. Or that Fred Moore or others needed to be egged on to insanity by Walt before he realized what exaggeration was. So like any moving medium the director and not the artist is the key. And artist needs to be egged on to deliver that performance.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

India bashing again? Well, I am not interested in regressive thought. The world finds its own ways based on economics and needs. And does need its critics. But, finally only players matter!

About the curriculum, go check the Arena DAE curriculum, which has complete sketching skills, shading, shadows, 1-2-3-4 point perspective, X-Sheet, Human Anatomy (male, female, child, Animal), Storyboarding, keyframes, laddering, inbetweens, ink and paint, backgrounds, timing, but also has scriptwriting and acting, well I can go on.. but I have made my point.

The discussion is not what is, but what must be.... I shall continue my discuss with Ken over this point.

India bashing? why would i India bash?

people can go ahead and stick their head in the sand...

as for DAE, i am not going to criticize the program until i interview someone that comes out of it. but nothing Arena has done till today in the animation realm has left me with a lot of expectation.

i think Ken is better of taking your queries anyway.

cheers.

Thanks a lot for being considerate. I'd also prefer real discussion and progress.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

as for DAE, i am not going to criticize the program until i interview someone that comes out of it.

Thanks. Just for information. The DAE program is between 1600-2000 hours (since you were designing a program on 750 hours) and even then you need more time than that for things like acting etc, but the cost is going very high in Indian terms.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Well, I'm not an educator or anything... but i've been looking at this little back-and-forth and I wanted to participate.

I think that the American artists are looking at an orange and saying that it SHOULD be an apple... or it should take steps to BECOME an apple in the future... when it's the orange's own damn business what it should be.

Now, look, i'm no traitor. I'm an American animator. (haha... that rhymes :cool: ) But for the sake of clarity of the situation, I will be the devil's advocate.

Virtualciti said early in the discussion that India is trying to become an "animation factory". I don't think everybody caught the true significance of that. He's referring to India's animation business plan: Create a low production cost solution for the American networks to create animation content.

Reading virtialciti's posts, i'm getting the impression that they are beginning with that premise and building their business models and training techniques on that, rather than looking to the US and copying our businesses and schools. I'm sorry, but.... what's wrong with that? Just because it's different doesn't mean it's wrong.

Look, I've read and agree with the arguments that India should build their industry and animation talent from the basis of creativity. But really, that's none of my business (or anyone elses). India has found a niche in the market that's working for them, and they should do what's best for them. They have a different "audience" than we do, really. The people in their "audience" are the executives who want to stay as far in the black as possible.

I have to admit, creating an "animation assembly line" and training animators to work as such is pretty alien to me. However, if they can develop it and it works, then more power to them. I've said in previous posts in the Cafe that the American animation industry needs new business plans to survive as well.

Follow @chaostoon on Twitter!

Reading virtialciti's posts, i'm getting the impression that they are beginning with that premise and building their business models and training techniques on that, rather than looking to the US and copying our businesses and schools. I'm sorry, but.... what's wrong with that? Just because it's different doesn't mean it's wrong.

Well, let's think about this for a bit....

Bring in new "talent", teach them only what they need to know job "A", hire them to do said job, fire them when said job is done.

Repeat as necessary.

What that creates is a surplus of niche talents. It neither serves the craft of animation, serves the industry ( except in the short term) and certainly does not serve the talent, again except in the short term.

Why even hire artists to begin with? Why not just hire ANYONE that can grasp a tool and train them to go through the motions?
They'll produce work, but it will be vacant, emotionless and not at all progressing the craft in any way shape or form.

But it will make some people who do not give a shit about animation quite wealthy.
Hey, let's all push this idea so MORE crap gets made......so it fails to inspire MORE people, foist pablum on an audience that cannot recognize shit from sparkle, and general create a miserable field to work in.
In the case of India, it will make their talent pool subservient to foreign industries, it will NOT serve Indian culture or aims outside of finances.
It will exploit a increasing population for the sake of cheap labour, again at the expense of Indians.

The goals of most the studios set up under that kind of model will be sating Western animation projects.......will there be any room for Indian culture to come to the fore? Why should they bother with that kind of things when the money from the West is so steadily and plentiful.

Y'know.........there's a word that describes that quite accurately..........its known as "prostitution".

A industry model which creates nothing but niche talents, subservient to foreign demands on that talent is creating what are essentially artistic prostitutes.
People just conveniently overlook the crass term though--the polite term is "hired wrists".

The global animation industry is built upon a lot of that already. Many small studios start out with the ideals of "doing their own thing"--but they succumb to taking in a steady stream of outsourced work to pay the overhead and seldom, if ever, do their own thing.
Fostering talent to aim low just perpetuates that kind of prostitution even more.

Fostering talent to be as fully functional as possible at least gives the individual artists the opportunity to expand BEYOND a niche job assignment.
It gives them not only a chance to work in many different venues, it gives them a chance to create materials that create better products for all of us to consume. It creates a stronger talent pool for studios to tap into, and utilized different approaches in solving problems with projects they have on hand, and creating new and interesting projects for the future.

Training talent to half-assed standards does not serve that kind of ideal--it crushes it. It condemns talent to fewer job options, on fewer projects, and create a climate of expendable people--which certainly would not making working in the biz any fun.

Sure I want to see the animation industry prosper. More projects happening means more work for people, means more income for people. That is a GOOD thing.
But not at the expense of the growth and futures of the talent involved.

Compromising that kind of thing is foolhardy, and IMO, is not smart business.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

which is what i have been saying all along. the moment you give a huge number of artists limited tradeable skills you screw them.

once the price advantage deteriorates or another market comes across cheaper what then?

what will you sell then?

Aah, see.... that's the heart of the argument against the Indian animation industry.

I'm not saying that its right... I'm not even saying that its smart (i feel that its very short-sighted, myself)... I'm saying that this is the choice they have made, this is the business plan that they have adopted, this is the direction they are going in, and for the moment, it's working for them, for better (financially) or for worse (creatively).

But that's all i'm gonna say, cuz i'm not an educator.... sorry about hijacking your post. :D

Follow @chaostoon on Twitter!

I recall reading that India has the largest cinematic output of any nation on Earth--produces more movies than anyone else. Dunno if that is still true or not, but I remember that being the case, at least in the past.
If that is still the case........even if they are #2 on producing material--most of that material is for domestic consumption.
But not animation.
They produce films that showcase and embrace their specific cultural interests--and clearly have a huge audience consuming them.

But not animation.

And sadly, they will not if they go about things the way they have set it up.
That means that a LOT of cultural expressions via animation, a lot of unique stories will fall by the wayside, simply because they ignore the intrinsic talent at their disposal.
Such an ugly term too.........."disposal".
But, hey, it IS their choice to set things up the way they want.

But this is all the crux of what Maxine was saying with this thread. If we are going to build this industry, build it anywhere.......we have to start by building the talent properly.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Y'know.........there's a word that describes that quite accurately..........its known as "prostitution".

A industry model which creates nothing but niche talents, subservient to foreign demands on that talent is creating what are essentially artistic prostitutes.
People just conveniently overlook the crass term though--the polite term is "hired wrists".

Ken, an artist would think what is good for the artist. However, the world is a survival thing. And if it requires 85% people to work for the benefit for the advantage of the 12% who manage who work for the 2% who earn, and who feed the remaining 1% who rule so that the world moves on.. well that is what it'd be. What is good for the artistic is not what it is for the industry.. so "hired wrists" be it. That's better than "idle wrists". Every artist had to wait for a mentor to arrive, and the mentor (or profiteer whatever you call it) always makes more money than the artist. If you have any idea of the movie indutry, you'd already know that. I understand, that nbeing an artist you feel emotional about the way artist is reduced to being a cog in the wheel, but that's what the reality is. That's why artists move studios, since another mentor thinks he knows of a better way to "use" them and so hires them for more money or whatever. So the "wrists get rehired". Whether it is Bill Tytla moving on from Walt or anyone. Neither did Walt Disney come to promote the artists, nor did Hanna Barbera (artists themselves also get the economics once in a while). They do this only for one thing. Make films, and make money - not necessarily in the same order. IF they need workers, someone produces them. It they hire those, they know what they can do with those. Yes, they'd lament that the worker can't do much more at the same cost (sic).

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

I recall reading that India has the largest cinematic output of any nation on Earth--produces more movies than anyone else. Dunno if that is still true or not, but I remember that being the case, at least in the past.
If that is still the case........even if they are #2 on producing material--most of that material is for domestic consumption.
But not animation.

India has a big film industry, and the same would happen with animation, which is also another dimension of the film industry. Secondly, India can continue to produce for it's own audience unashamedly. They (their paying viewers) come first in any industry - don't think about them and you pay the price. Films are not made to promote the industry - they are just made to promote individual interests. The purpose in any industry remains the same - make anything which seems to be economically viable. And then economics comes into play when you release the product. If it fails, the economic excercise "learns" from it, and if it succeeds, the same happens :-)

You can't put the cart before the horse. You can't say what will succeed and what will fail. If you could, you wouldn't be writing blogs - you would be making money :-))

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

India has a big film industry, and the same would happen with animation, which is also another dimension of the film industry. Secondly, India can continue to produce for it's own audience unashamedly. They (their paying viewers) come first in any industry - don't think about them and you pay the price. Films are not made to promote the industry - they are just made to promote individual interests. The purpose in any industry remains the same - make anything which seems to be economically viable. And then economics comes into play when you release the product. If it fails, the economic excercise "learns" from it, and if it succeeds, the same happens :-)

You can't put the cart before the horse. You can't say what will succeed and what will fail. If you could, you wouldn't be writing blogs - you would be making money :-))

so what you are saying is that training is purely an economic exercise which should pay the trainer well and should give the trainee enough skill to go feed himself.

the concept of teaching the fine arts, well and educating to the point where the learners mind is free is of no consequence because its not economically viable?

i think you need to look into the nature of economics, its colorless and fairly mercenary. which means you can mould its chatter to any argument. throw in some chatter bout survival of the fittest, mass production and then some more like the ruling class and the elite etc and you have an argument.

its funny how you all but say it.

Ken, an artist would think what is good for the artist.

Alas, that would be true were I only an artist.

But I have co-owned and run a studio, hired and fired talent, taught adult students the craft at colleges and coached innumerable people about many, many aspects of cartooning/animation/comics etc.

When I'm talking about this stuff........its not from the seat of a mere artist, its from the seat of someone who has devoted their life ( and over 2 decades) to the craft and business of cartoons.

I see both things as synchronous and symbiotic.

Neither did Walt Disney come to promote the artists...

But Walt DID promote them. You apparently have not heard about the very progressive programs inside the Disney studios to foster the talent of the artists employed. Nightly life drawing sessions and lectures, field studies of animal subjects at zoos, a zeal for helping artists become the best they could be.
So much so that those programs translated over to CalArts and became the core of that esteemed program in that school.
The Disney Bros were shrewd enough when it came to business, but they clearly saw what was their biggest asset was: the growth of their hired talent.

its funny how you all but say it.

Amen, brutha--this discourse is no longer for virtualciti, but for anyone else reading and curious about the whole deal. One of the biggest global questions about the future of this craft and industry settles down to " Why...?" in regards the necessity of developing talent.
I also stress......( and to the great fear of someone like virtulaciti) that artists also learn some basic business management skills, in addition to their artistic training. This is just part of the "total package" mind-set I've been stressing.

I know of several successful studios now that are run BY artists, and run quite well at that. Heh--they treat business people like virtualciti would treat artists--they use them when they need them. How's that for turnabout?

There will ALWAYS be people out there that seek to exploit talent, and the resource that is talent. They will always have their justifications and excuses about it, and will doubtlessly claim they are doing good.
But I'm saying.......have said all along........that their plan is not good enough.
Their current view is only about profit for themselves. The artists are just a tool.just another way to make a buck.

Walt Disney, William Hanna and Joe Barbera were cited, but what was overlooked about those men and their studios was this: They hired people AND KEPT THEM. Not all of them, but they had the same artists under their roofs for years--moving them from project to project. They embraced a core talent philosophy and it served them well on the films they created. Yes, they had talent come and go as they were needed, that is the same as in any industry, but their flagship works were helmed and guided by long-time employees.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Alas, that would be true were I only an artist.

But I have co-owned and run a studio, hired and fired talent, taught adult students the craft at colleges and coached innumerable people about many, many aspects of cartooning/animation/comics etc.

When I'm talking about this stuff........its not from the seat of a mere artist, its from the seat of someone who has devoted their life ( and over 2 decades) to the craft and business of cartoons.

I see both things as synchronous and symbiotic.

But Walt DID promote them. You apparently have not heard about the very progressive programs inside the Disney studios to foster the talent of the artists employed. Nightly life drawing sessions and lectures, field studies of animal subjects at zoos, a zeal for helping artists become the best they could be.
So much so that those programs translated over to CalArts and became the core of that esteemed program in that school.
The Disney Bros were shrewd enough when it came to business, but they clearly saw what was their biggest asset was: the growth of their hired talent.

Amen, brutha--this discourse is no longer for virtualciti, but for anyone else reading and curious about the whole deal. One of the biggest global questions about the future of this craft and industry settles down to " Why...?" in regards the necessity of developing talent.
I also stress......( and to the great fear of someone like virtulaciti) that artists also learn some basic business management skills, in addition to their artistic training. This is just part of the "total package" mind-set I've been stressing.

I know of several successful studios now that are run BY artists, and run quite well at that. Heh--they treat business people like virtualciti would treat artists--they use them when they need them. How's that for turnabout?

There will ALWAYS be people out there that seek to exploit talent, and the resource that is talent. They will always have their justifications and excuses about it, and will doubtlessly claim they are doing good.
But I'm saying.......have said all along........that their plan is not good enough.
Their current view is only about profit for themselves. The artists are just a tool.just another way to make a buck.

Walt Disney, William Hanna and Joe Barbera were cited, but what was overlooked about those men and their studios was this: They hired people AND KEPT THEM. Not all of them, but they had the same artists under their roofs for years--moving them from project to project. They embraced a core talent philosophy and it served them well on the films they created. Yes, they had talent come and go as they were needed, that is the same as in any industry, but their flagship works were helmed and guided by long-time employees.

i agree. at the same time i want to say that the artists system in India is different. here people work as permanent employees, contracts are not prevalent nor are they really enforceable.

this has led to a rather mercenary system where people move at the drop of a hat for better money overnight. so maybe in the Indian context only but i think people need to learn a thing or two about long term goals and relationships.

however i dont blame them, if the management is ready to exploit them why should the artists be any less mercenary.

--this discourse is no longer for virtualciti, but for anyone else reading and curious about the whole deal.

Sorry, I was not looking for a discourse, but a debate to be able to understand an artist's POV in the new scenario.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

The Disney Bros were shrewd enough when it came to business, but they clearly saw what was their biggest asset was: the growth of their hired talent.

The fact is that I admire Walt Disney and have followed him very closely. Including all grooming sessions, in fact in India, Raj Kapoor had the same knack. And he could dispassionately sit back and create a viable project that get lost in the quagmire of artistic pursuit. Movie making is business son, not a creative pursuit. Like an engineer can pursue technical business, only creative people can pursue creative business. Learning business and economics is as simple for artistic people as learning art is for business people. So, every once in a while someone with high knack for both would come - some one like Steve Jobs would come and create an Apple and a Pixar, or a Bill Gates a Microsoft, well only some highly involved people would know the other 2 names of Steve Wozniak or Paul Allen. Yes, only people with vision in both economics at macro and micro level would come and with a deep understanding of the industry and it's current drawbacks/ lacuna, he would create future.

The knack to spot, groom and nurture talent is inherent in the success of a creative business, as it is to spot, and innovate new technology to the industrial business. In fact, retention of talent includes grooming, and is part of the economics of an individual business. Economics at macro level doesn't look at how individual businesses are run, but at how the total industry is moving based on customer response.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Finally, I'd invite you all for one last time to participate in a design process. It is my personal request to all those still passionate enough about education, to be able to dispassionately give their opinions.

There are many careers in the 2D animation industry like: (there are many other ancillary ones, but I'd concentrate on the main ones at the working level)
- Character Designer
- Layout Artist
- Background Painter
- Key Frame Artist
- In-Betweener
- Cleanup Artist
- Ink and Paint
- checker
- Compositor

There are many careers in the 3D animation industry like:
- Character Designer
- Modeler
- Rigger
- Animator
- Camera
- Texture artist
- Lighting Artist
- SFX/ Dynamics
- Render Expert

The common ones would be Scriptwriters, Art Director, Storyboarder, Music Director, Voice Designer, Line Supervisors etc.

Now in the above set, there are roles in 2D and 3D which are different from each other. Even if you make a comparison matrix there are roles which have vanished when you move from 2D to 3D, and there are new roles which never existed. So it is imperative when even in a doctor's life technology and knowledge gamut changes (like non-invasive surgery allows doctors to bypass the first step in operation of making an incision, and many similar new procedures which bypass old procedures), here you have a paradigm shift.

Can you map all of these against each other, and come up with the same set of training needs for the same roles in the new setup? If you can give such a set here then we can go from there.. And if we can't there is a whole new training and retraining task there.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

the words mental masturbation come to mind..

the words mental masturbation come to mind..

Sure, that's why I requested that only people who are really interested to please contribute. I am not interested in "mental *****" or "fantasy obliques" or whatever you call it since there's no point my wanting to know your level of thought. And, I am not wanting to test the knowledge of expletives/ vulgarity of participating animators since I am sure I am way behind :)

Neither am I interested in various digressions that we've had.. though I have painstakingly tried to explain every point, presuming that it was a necessary catharsis - however, the discussion is not leading to the main point. It seems that very few are interested in an actual debate on education or curriculum. We've had more discussions on economics or India than any real contribution on education. It's a wonder, people lament about the education system, but themselves have nothing to contribute.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Also, I am very sure now that you (skinnylizard) were not serious when you said you want to develop a 750 hours course. Since 2-3 times I created opportunities for you to do so using this wonderful platform:

[LIST=1]
[*]When I mentioned DAE of Arena Animation Academy, which is a comprehensive 1600-2000 hours program, but you're not interested in it.
[*]When I invite you to map various career options in 2D and 3D animation so that we come up with thoughts for curriculum design, but you're not interested in it.
[/LIST]

For some people "designing" a curriculum is akin to copy pasting from a University site, sorry I am not game for that..

Curriculum design is hard work sonny, not a double whammy bonus earning from some internet copy-paste job.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Mate,

Pipe down or you will bust an O-Ring. I know all about Arena and how they operate, Thank you very much.

Mapping out curriculum? i know a bunch of people on this board who have professional expertise and know a great deal about putting a curriculum together. If you can put your money where your mouth is, do it. I guarantee you will have solid responses.

Otherwise, like i said, mental masturbation. You can sit on the board and talk the talk. No harm in that, typing is free as are words.

The difference in my 750 hour program and your 1600 hour program is that i am trying to fork out a situation where i am paying out of pocket (and have ) for people to train the right way. While you would take any poor sod on and part him with his cash (i gather that from your spiel on macro,micro,mercenary chatter on economics)

i have spent enough time and money training animators, who dont even work for me, they go out into the industry, so please dont talk to me like you know it all and others don't.

i am not confrontational, i am sure a bunch of people here will vouch for me here.

As for copying and pasting a curriculum, do it, if you can teach it correctly and it helps your students, do that as well. Its a damn sight better than making them do f*** all.

A curriculum listing by itself means nothing. Its all about what and how you teach and the environment you foster.

The problem with the industry in this country is folk who are out to just make money out of other peoples ignorance. In the end its studios like us who suffer when straddled with half baked talent.

QUOTE]You come from a nation of plenty. Probably you are not aware of issues. Financing studies is a big issue. There are many ideal courses. You can go on and add Design+business+technology into a package. But the cost, cannot be borne by more than 80% of the artists. So you need courses for the entire spectrum. In fact those who can bear the cost, usually don't even have arts as their main option.[/QUOTE]

That, is NOT my problem. Cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

For some people "designing" a curriculum is akin to copy pasting from a University site, sorry I am not game for that..

But taking it from "contributions" here would be..............what??

The same thing.:rolleyes:

Curriculum design is hard work sonny, not a double whammy bonus earning from some internet copy-paste job.

Heh, I've designed and re-done the curriculum (from scratch )for three programs myself--I know about the work.

I also know that such material is proprietary, and you either know enough to do it yourself or you hire someone that does. I've seen at least one school over here share their curriculum with a "foreign" set-up as a pretense to establishing a franchise, and once said set-up got the material, the arrangement stopped cold.
The foreign parties got what they wanted and didn't need the western folks anymore. Funny how that works, eh?

Hey, if you know enough, just looking over a University site can give you a tremendous starting point. But you either have to know yourself , or have people around you, that know enough about the craft to interpret that short-list curriculum.

Its like anything else in the process, if you want it done right, either do it yourself or pay someone with the knowledge to do it.

And I want to make something clear here: personally, I'm not interested in supplying a curriculum on here for to you to use gratis. I am as mercenary as the next guy, and my charity only extends to a certain point. If you want a professional document created, hire me as a professional--I can send you my fee to consider.

It's a wonder, people lament about the education system, but themselves have nothing to contribute.

I contributed to the animation education system in Canada ( and ostensibly the world, via enrolled foreign students) for over a decade running, to over 1000 students. I'm more than entitled to lament.

The whole point of this thread was to discuss the general foundations of what is required to successfully train artists for a CAREER in the animation industry.
Not piecemeal jobs, not so they can be treated as disposable talent. Its not to create an easy road map that someone can lift and use for monetary aims.
It IS to give all those who might be ignorant of the reasonings some insight as to WHY these foundations are stressed so stridently.

Its not about some withering "old guard" spouting that stodgy traditions must be maintained for tradition's sake. Its a cognitive look at the needs of the craft and industry as it exists today and for the future.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

That, is NOT my problem. Cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Sure mate, and keep making way for the people who have money and can wear the ACs. Sorry, mate. You can't stop democratisation of education. The world will find ways to deliver education at prices affordable - even if required by cutting it into digestable pieces. Today the race courses have been taken over by jockeys, and golf courses by caddies. So, people who want education will find a way.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

[QUOTE=Ken Davis]QUOTE]I contributed to the animation education system in Canada.[QUOTE]

This and other comments that you responded to were directly in response to another poster (I believe). So, your response is surprising. I hope that both are not same people?? I have been trying to understand your POV however, a lot of crap is flowing by.

Your or my contributions are only of relevance on the forum on which they are made. Sure, I have no problem with the business and economics and they perfectly make sense to me, even if not to others. So economics is fine, and you need not lament - as that harms your chances of getting business, you can be straight forward in saying that you shall advice if hired. If your profile appeals to someone, they'll hire you. I feel that I am not gaining much from the current debate since this is already the curriculum being taught at Arena Chandigarh since 2005. Maybe, since we both draw from the same source which sprouted from Winsor McCay, Walt Disney and Hanna Barbera, so apparently we have absorbed the same information and have our interpretations. Sure, you can carry on reading this to your advantage if I find someone who wants a discussion on 3D and has good 3D exposure.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

I’ve been following this thread with interest. I’m going back to the beginning of the thread and putting my spin on things as a person who hasn’t been to college to study animation, but is learning on the hoof, so to speak, and mopping up every crumb on the way.

Everyone needs the basics. If we don’t have the basics whatever you produce is not going to be believable. If we don’t know in reasonable detail all aspects and every role in the animation industry, how can we work in a fully productive way?

Virtualciti, all the jobs you’ve listed need to react in a meaningful way with each other and they can only do that by knowing how the other jobs work in detail.

How can someone design a character without knowing the limitations of modelling or rigging? The rigger needs to know the character so he can design it for the animator. Does the Animator know why the character was designed in such a way? Etc, etc… (I’m being over simplistic here).

We don’t have to be an expert at all aspects, but we need to know the hows and whys beforehand to be able to create animation convincingly. If the education system doesn’t use a large stick to knock that into students, they will lose the larger picture. I’m getting pretty good at bashing myself to learn more without the luxury of full time education. Seems little to ask that professional wanabees do the same, otherwise the only real innovation will come from amateur fanatics and not the robots produced for commerce to devour.

Virtualciti, all the jobs you’ve listed need to react in a meaningful way with each other and they can only do that by knowing how the other jobs work in detail.

How can someone design a character without knowing the limitations of modelling or rigging? The rigger needs to know the character so he can design it for the animator. Does the Animator know why the character was designed in such a way? Etc, etc… (I’m being over simplistic here).

Hey, can we take this forward? I am interested in learning the way you want. A crumb at a time.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Otherwise, like i said, mental masturbation. You can sit on the board and talk the talk. No harm in that, typing is free as are words.

I refuse to be drawn into your hidden agenda, which is using this forum for other purposes than what it is meant for. These forums are meant for talk. I know you don't have anything to contribute anyway other that carry out your agenda by harming every useful discussion and bash whatever brands or countries.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

I refuse to be drawn into your hidden agenda, which is using this forum for other purposes than what it is meant for. These forums are meant for talk. I know you don't have anything to contribute anyway other that carry out your agenda by harming every useful discussion and bash whatever brands or countries.

I am Indian (proudly but not jingositcally) and i am in the industry. My agenda whatever, it may be is out in the open.

Whatever method of teaching animation is being applied in India is completely inadequate and hopelessly bottom line oriented. The required skills are not being taught and succeed in creating worker bees.

rather than admitting the problem you keep trying to justify it.

Besides which you come here asking for help to plan out a curriculum. seriously?

no wonder we are in such a shit state of affairs. you want to go online and then discuss a curriculum on a f***** bulletin board (as great as awn is)

do you see any flaws in your actions at all?

or you still seeing red no matter what i type?

Edit : as for my purpose? well honestly, i have never spammed the board offering the best possible rates nor have i made posts asking people to join in on a idea for exposure

sometimes i share something we have done and get responses on it, other than that i try and drop answers for every business or pitch bible query that comes up.

i have tried to give more than i can take because people like Ape and Ken and others do the same.

that is the true difference between us (india) and them (the west) they give and give and give and from that they get.

while we, make like robber barons.

while we, make like robber barons.

Please don't count on me to join you in your confessions. I have given to the topic and I have gained something. I have a very clear aim - to intiate a discussion on what is possibly required for a good 3D curriculum. However, Ken did give a few points, however, all your jingoistic talk has led away from the topic, and I see this going nowhere. And now you say that AWN is also as bad as India which is as bad as ***** or whatever. I have very politely requested that my discussion is not being helped by your banter. I again request that kindly don't confuse the discussion by aimlessly meandering talk or whatever you prefer to call it.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Please don't count on me to join you in your confessions. I have given to the topic and I have gained something. I have a very clear aim - to intiate a discussion on what is possibly required for a good 3D curriculum. However, Ken did give a few points, however, all your jingoistic talk has led away from the topic, and I see this going nowhere. And now you say that AWN is also as bad as India which is as bad as ***** or whatever. I have very politely requested that my discussion is not being helped by your banter. I again request that kindly don't confuse the discussion by aimlessly meandering talk or whatever you prefer to call it.

so you talk the talk and cant take criticism when its directed. fine by me.

i am not jingoistic, the opposite in fact. I love how you call it the democratization of education, and use that as a justification for peddling crap. since you don't seem to know what big words mean look up charlatan in a dictionary.

i think i raised a fair few points but they don't seem to go down well for you only because believe that its ok to learn crap and then work as a mindless worker bee. you not only don't criticize it but condone the dumbing down of animation, animators and educators.

you work for a franchise which has a history of using recent graduates (using the term loosely) as faculty. so you literally have the blind leading the blind. what does that lead to? ill tell you. going astray.

Now don't get personal, its about the entire system that you are a proponent of.

Besides as interesting as your pursuit of curriculum design on AWN is (for free i might add) it just goes to show how half baked and sly your effort is. First off you want it done for free. Admit it.

You ought to be talking to content producers, heads of production, animators and asking them about what they want in new recruits, what they missed out on studying or wished they had (and this would be an ever evolving process)

Instead you keep harping on the 5 or 6 variable design positions in a pipeline and pretend you can actually create specialists for those positions without actually teaching them the entire course load.

Most of all your expectations or a program as you listed contain absolutely no mention of Art theory, history, Animation history or concepts, zero learning on aspects of cinema.

So at the end of the day what you wish to teach for 2000 hours is that stuff which will get your student slotted as a texture or rigging or _______ fill in the blank artist somewhere at the entry level where he can go on and work for the bottom line of an American studio.

Is there a harm in that ? No. Business is Business. However when our skills dont improve proportionately enough then why bother?

As to what black spot said. Thats f******* elementary. You dont seem to gather that.

Speaking of Ken, he wasnt asking you for a job, he was merely staring that you come across as a freemonger.

Hey, can we take this forward? I am interested in learning the way you want. A crumb at a time.

As to what black spot said. Thats f******* elementary. You dont seem to gather that.

I’m taking the same approach to animation as I do in my day time job. I audit (specialising in messes) – ie I produce the accounts before I start. I am not a tax expert, but can do it. I’m not a PAYE expert, but I can do it. Etc, etc… I don’t write books up, but I have to know how they were produced to even start. If don’t know my debits from my credits, I’d be a pretty pickle. You have no idea how much planning has to be done to comply with international standards.

If you want to produce the best, students have to able to think things through, even questioning why. Drones are unimaginative and will only produce mediocre work.

Speaking of Ken, he wasnt asking you for a job, he was merely staring that you come across as a freemonger.

Hehe, I have this funny lil' rule about jobs: if I do not want to do it, I charge more. If I really do not want to do it, I charge absurdly more.:rolleyes:
( and yes, I have gotten takers!)
I doubt my asking price could be met in this case.;)

Having a curriculum created for free means a school would have a road map to generate millions of dollars in value from that document, all from nothing. It'd be like having a factory and assembly line built for you, for nothing. In any other industry its a given that it just does not work that way, but in animation..........."oooh......you can drawwwwww....".

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Having a curriculum created for free means a school would have a road map to generate millions of dollars in value from that document, all from nothing. It'd be like having a factory and assembly line built for you, for nothing.

Sure I agree. I totally empathize is with you. So I will understand if you're not interested in participating in this debate. Thanks a lot buddy.

What I wanted was a free debate for all to learn. I am not asking you in private - this is a public forum where I don't take away what you or others can't. I have shared my learning openly, and I thought that a public forum was meant for just that. And I have raised certain questions (comparing 2D and 3D career slots) which no-one was not able to answer. I understand that the debate ended there and we all can learn from that! I surely got my answers - I was looking for those and not a curriculum haha!!

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Most of all your expectations or a program as you listed contain absolutely no mention of Art theory, history, Animation history or concepts, zero learning on aspects of cinema.

Like always you have no clue to what you're talking about, which as always is without the research. Wake up - I have already listed some of the contents of the DAE course much earlier, which has all of what you mention - no I am not going to give it all to you for free.

Hint: Try squeezing a 2000gms box into a 750 gms tincan for a start.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

so you talk the talk and cant take criticism when its directed. fine by me.

Not fine by me. I belong to a vanishing tribe which believes that criticism is directed at ideas, not at people places or events. So trying to bash a place or a brand smells foul to me.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Not fine by me. I belong to a vanishing tribe which believes that criticism is directed at ideas, not at people places or events. So trying to bash a place or a brand smells foul to me.

dude, stop spouting freaking platitudes, say something

i saw the list you mentioned for the DAE course. I didnt disregard it. thing is you need to be coming here and asking for help on teaching those precise things, not the CG pipeline or 2d pipeline. there is plenty of fundamental teaching for that.

There is just no basis for people to teach Art History or Art Theory and do you have a film maker coming in and teaching Film? no. i doubt it.

Sure I agree. I totally empathize is with you. So I will understand if you're not interested in participating in this debate. Thanks a lot buddy.

Ahem......

The "debate" in this thread was about whether or not a core of drawing skills was essential to a animation educational programme. If you thought it was about 2D/3D pipelines, then you got off track, not the rest of us.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Ahem......

The "debate" in this thread was about whether or not a core of drawing skills was essential to a animation educational programme.

Here is where I differed since I believe that the core set being the same, there are some modifications required to a 3D animator's skill set. I am seeking various perspectives on that. I have got your perspective, and since I differ I opted to discuss further - however it's fine if you wont want to discuss it based on your present belief. I am fine with gathering more POVs from other people on the same. If, you're interested in the discussion on a 3D animator's skill set needs, you're welcome. Even engineering slowly evolved from just Electrical, Mechanical to fine tune by changing a few subjects and opting for Electronics, Industrial etc. I have seen ad agencies avoid web and web companies took their place. Similarly, MBA evolved with a few subject changes into MBA (Marketing), MBA (HR) etc etc. Nothing wrong with an earlier MBA believing that this was not necessary. I have been through these evolutions and have seen the people who hold out suffer. It's really tough to sympathize with them since the first choice was theirs always.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

i saw the list you mentioned for the DAE course. I didnt disregard it. thing is you need to be coming here and asking for help on teaching those precise things, not the CG pipeline or 2d pipeline. there is plenty of fundamental teaching for that.

I need no help for that (already teaching complete things). I am already doing well thanks. Going by my learnings from the teaching, I am looking for what future requires and different perspectives on that.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

I am looking for what future requires and different perspectives on that.

the future Indian animators require precisely the skills you say you are teaching them very well.

Language of Cinema, Art History, Art Theory they need to watch a bunch of movies, be able to absorb them, have artistic influences and then they need to be able to distill this and make visual representations of it.

as someone in a studio, right now i can tell you that this is what we lack the MOST and no one is addressing these issues.

maybe NID does to some extent but that is a difficult program to get into and not all of the graduates end up in the animation stream.

Whistling Woods is another place with a strong potential because they have a campus and a program but one cant say until their first batch is ready.

so at the end of the day you have 3-4 schools nation wide teaching a PROGRAM while the others strip things down and just go through the motions.

the future Indian animators require precisely the skills you say you are teaching them very well.

Language of Cinema, Art History, Art Theory they need to watch a bunch of movies, be able to absorb them, have artistic influences and then they need to be able to distill this and make visual representations of it.

Precisely, in fact Arena Launched DAE from Chandigarh in 2005. It is now in 2008 that it is being brought to other places. So in the last 4 years I've gone through all knowledge/ books that were available on the subject on Amazon, and have implemented them with integrity. I have nurtured quality people and have all aspects of delivery fine tuned to the best possible (in a animationarily disconnected world of chandigarh).

The hurdles that are faced on the contrary are that the deserving students don't have the funds, and Banks don't forward loans for this. And finally if both are there, they are not impressed by what the industry pays, even if the passion is there.

There are hardly students enough to fill in the 1 Batch (capacity is just 10 students) of this tough course run every year, and students keep getting pulled away to the software oriented courses that are in the market, since those courses are cheaper.

Arena Chandigarh even participated in the filmaka.in first edition, so that they understand film making to the extent possible.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Further to that, usually the Industry is not distinguishing in terms of entering salary between students who did a 1-2 software based curriculum or a student who has done the complete rich curriculum. This further dissuades people.

I want to design a curriculum that takes some drudgery and subsequently expense out of this so that it is possible for talented-but-short-of-funds people to take this up. I have a lot of perspective on the frame of things including ideology, artistic, skill-set, manpower quality, public perception of a designer, economics, demand-supply in job market, job positioning in job-market. However, i intend to use this forum to test my ideas (if possible).

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Further to that, usually the Industry is not distinguishing in terms of entering salary between students who did a 1-2 software based curriculum or a student who has done the complete rich curriculum. This further dissuades people.

I want to design a curriculum that takes some drudgery and subsequently expense out of this so that it is possible for talented-but-short-of-funds people to take this up. I have a lot of perspective on the frame of things including ideology, artistic, skill-set, manpower quality, public perception of a designer, economics, demand-supply in job market, job positioning in job-market. However, i intend to use this forum to test my ideas (if possible).

i had a chat with someone up there at Prana West. He said most students that come in dont have a clue as to what to do. their experience is completely useless for a professional production studio. this is a complaint i have heard fairly often at forums, they constantly state that the training industry output is almost always below par for studio use.

secondly i dont think you can teach much if anything from books, unless you have professional experience yourself. i.e. teaching film from a book without prior experience in the discipline to me sounds a bit dodgy.

so maybe a smarter thing to do would be to sit down across from studio production heads and ask them where the gap lies in technical terms.

The studio heads are interviewing every one even with the least experience like just 3DS Max or Maya (I get many CVs applying for jobs and they hardly have any background, however, they seem to be working with DQ and others)

The gap seems to be the acceptance of animation as the best career option in most of the highly artistic people (at least in India, and I am sure quite a few other countries). Hence, they are not keen to invest in a total curriculum. I believe this arises from whatever feedback on animator's earning potential or about the field that they gauge from forums and newspapers - and then the inferences that they draw.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

The studio heads are interviewing every one even with the least experience like just 3DS Max or Maya (I get many CVs applying for jobs and they hardly have any background, however, they seem to be working with DQ and others)

The gap seems to be the acceptance of animation as the best career option in most of the highly artistic people (at least in India, and I am sure quite a few other countries). Hence, they are not keen to invest in a total curriculum. I believe this arises from whatever feedback on animator's earning potential or about the field that they gauge from forums and newspapers - and then the inferences that they draw.

who isnt keen to invest in a total curriculum? you cant blame the industry or individuals.

if Academia is not interested in teaching what needs to be taught you cant blame 'lack of need'

the people dont know better which is why the 'teachers' have to be less scrupulous and cynical.

and of course less mercenary.

i love capitalism, i practice it but not for the short term.

I have been away for sometime!

Sure, there are no more questions here?

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

questions, questions, questions

we've had a lot of opinions. We need questions.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

I know of several successful studios now that are run BY artists, and run quite well at that. Heh--they treat business people like virtualciti would treat artists--they use them when they need them. How's that for turnabout?

You are presuming that Artists who turn business people would not know much about business. If they are going to be good businessmen, it would be about costs, resources, economics, finances, market et al. Training keeps modifying/ reinventing itself to suit the needs of the market.

B]How, I treat my artists in getting too personal and I don't deem it necessary to share. How you treat your kids is upto you. [/B]

Someone may turn and also say that the third world earning 1/10th of the developed world was totally unfair. But, yes, that is still part of the history. Today, communication brought their salaries closer. So economics finds it's way. It will relentlessly work till the salaries in some countries come down and go up in others.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

One of the biggest global questions about the future of this craft and industry settles down to " Why...?" in regards the necessity of developing talent.

I also stress......( and to the great fear of someone like virtulaciti) that artists also learn some basic business management skills, in addition to their artistic training. This is just part of the "total package" mind-set I've been stressing.

You come from a nation of plenty. Probably you are not aware of issues. Financing studies is a big issue. There are many ideal courses. You can go on and add Design+business+technology into a package. But the cost, cannot be borne by more than 80% of the artists. So you need courses for the entire spectrum. In fact those who can bear the cost, usually don't even have arts as their main option.

So, I am trying to find solutions that deliver good food at the cost of a pizza. I know what all goes into a good animator, and am worried enough to find where to apply the cuts so that more artistic but not affluent people can get this education. However, I have seen many inquiries who can't even afford a INR 20K course (thats $500 for you), how can you deliver an animation course to them. What do I say to them? I get a mail every day, what do I tell them? That some folks don't want you to enter this field, unless you are able to go the whole hog? This discussion is not for me baby, there are a whole lot of them, whom I direct to this discussion, by becoming their advocate, but allowing them to see what some other people with much better opportunities feel.

To top it, the software companies unrelentlessly pass us the same cost of software "without" the equivalent support, and we end up bearing the cost of support given to developed countries - in effect subsidizing the purchases in those countries. This means education in animation still remains relatively costly even with lesser content (that was the whole point behind the economics talk).

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Pages