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2D animation: just how cheap?

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2D animation: just how cheap?

I am yet another guy from outside this amazing animation planet, with a probably not so original project under his arm and looking for ways to make it happen (yes, a bit like Robinson Crussoe arriving to NYC on a raft and trying to figure out how to awe the natives into submission...:( )

So first thing is, much like Robinson, I have a plan buy resources are scarce. Project is a musical of about... 40mn! (I know, I know, I used to think of it as "short", until I read the threads in this forum) Music is everything in it, since it is an educative product, aimed to make kids familiar with music.
All this to say that the lenght cannot very well be cut down, that the animation should be appealing but by no means elaborated and that action will be scarce (think of it as an opera, where characters tend to face the public and sing) The backgrounds are also pretty unchanging. I know it sounds BORING, but I count on other features to grab the audience's attention.

Now, I need a rough estimate for animation cost. I realize this is a recurrent topic in this forum and I wouldn't have posted this question without having read all the related threads. They are very useful, but I think I need a slightly different approach:

Like I said, my main priority regarding animation is to keep it CHEAP. So let's not take Disney nor WB as a model. I am indeed sorry if I offend somebody's esthetic feelings here (I would understand it, in fact), but I was thinking that something as crude as Southpark does manage to deliver its message and, well, I'm not sure about the cost, but it sure looks cheap to me, nothing near the hunnerts K's foreseen in some of the threads. But then, of course, I have been wrong about animation costs before...

So my questions today are:

1) What would the best choices of style, techniques, programas, etc be in view of keeping costs as low as possible? I understand that Flash is the tool for this kind of work and that cutouts are much cheaper. Would it be too basic to ask how and the effects these decisions would have on the film?

2) When using this approach, what would the needs in terms of personnel involved be?:
- Would there animators, assistants and in-betweeners still be need?
- What's the amount of work roughly needed (say, 1 zillion feet, frames,...)
- What's a rough estimate for the productivity of the workers involved (like: 1000 feet a day - I don't know if feet are an adecuate measure for this, though)
I just want to have an idea of the needed inputs, so I can imagine costs later.

I am sorry if the question is too basic to be posted here. I have done some research before puting it here, buy maybe my ignorance is too vast to be filled by a forum. If you feel that my questions are too open and that further information would make it easier to answer them, please let me know and I will provide more details. I just felt I didn't want to bother everybody with too fastidious a post.

Many thanks in advance for your generous help.

NOT AT ALL. Forgive me if I gave that impression. Put it down to my lack of fluency in English, it is not my native language and I am not always able to convey nuances. I do appreciate your help, as I have stated many times

:D No problem! Glad I could help.

I guess that at some point I'll have to decide between blowing this full scale (create a company, etc.) and forgetting the whole thing. I had somehow expected to be able to carry this out on the side, while I do my 9 to 5 job, but more and more it looks as if this is not going to be possible. Donators and non-creative partners are always a possibility. And after all, I live in Europe, paradise of state support...

What is the planned outcome of the project? Is it only a one time thing or do you intend for it to be a series? If it's a one time thing, it may not be necessary to form a company for a single project. I also think it's possible for you to do the project on the side, but it will take a great amount of patience and planning. And if you have access to state grants, go for it!

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A lot of your replies have been quite cynical, and quite off putting. I think you have a fine grasp of the english language. It doesn't help to respond in this manner when people are giving you an honest answer to your questions, even if they're not the answers you were hoping to get.

Animation isn't cheap. South Park isn't cheap. Don't get confused with simple stylistic animation with cheap. Yes, it's cheaper than full Disney Feature animation but It still takes a lot of money to create an episode of South Park. I think it's actually more the double what was stated earlier.

Yes, you can get your project done for about half of what Ken stated, but you will have to severely cut back on your creative control. By this, I mean the characters will have to be very stylized to work in Flash, the backgrounds will also have to be simplified. NO big snazzy panning truck ins and outs. Also you will not have the power of very many retakes and approval passes. Maybe two passes at character and BG designs, and one or two max at the story boards. After that maybe a quarter animation retake notes.

If you go any lower than that, your quality will drop to unuseble levels.

As for more lip sync costing more, it's like this. If you have a shot were the character stands there and blinks. Thats easy and can be animated quickly. If the same character is singing, the animator now has to animate the mouth moving on every frame and that takes time. Even if it's animated in Flash, where all the mouth shapes are designed ahead of time. The animator still has to listen to the audio, time it out and set all the key frames for the dialouge.

You can go about this project and do it on the cheap, but it will end up looking horrible like most of the crap you find on Newgrounds.com.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

The creation of moving pictures in a two-dimensional environment, such as through "traditional" cel animation or in computerized animation software. This is done by sequencing consecutive images, or "frames", that simulate motion by each image showing the next in a gradual progression of steps. The eye can be "fooled" into perceiving motion when these consecutive images are shown at a rate of 24 frames per second or faster.

(...) That is why I say I do not care about another's dreams--its not intended to be insulting, its simply not my cause to champion.

To that end, to secure professionals to do the work, to create work to best serve you and your project...that is clearly going to take "something" to attract such people.

Yeah, sure. I like mercenaries too, people who work to get money (incidentally, so do I) and, except for Mother Therese of Calcuta, nobody does something for nothing. Let's get past this stage. We understand each other.

Although your ballpark figures have been helpful in setting a context, I am mainly interested in input requirements for a project like this one. One could discuss forever wether a given amount is average pay or else, and one will always find very different prices in a market as wide as this. So I prefer to think in terms of hours/men, which makes for a more accurate appraisal of the effort needed (in other words, let's forget about money and talk value added)

Let's give you an example here to chew on:

We talked about lip-synch work--and you asked about this.
(...)
Because all this work needs to be meticulously cued to the music, it means more concentration on the part of the animator, which means more time taken, which means LESS work produced because of the constant testing and re-testing of the footage to make sure the proper beats are being hit at the proper time.

VEry useful stuff, thanks. Now, what would you say the relation would be in terms of animator's time between the simplest design lip-synched and the same thing un-synched (two characters, but one doesn's really move to the music and the other one always faces the public. Just lips and arms are synched) In other words:

If one minute unsynched normally takes one month (?), then to synch that would be an additional...

This is also why its also been stated that if the outcome sought doesn't "need to be professional" in scope, one can save all that money by doing it all themselves.
The software is out there, the basic instruction as well, all that the project's champion need bring is time, patience and the will to do it.
If the vision is personal, then I strongly advice anyone to consider going it alone even if it greatly increases the amount of time it takes.

Well, with all respect, if the difficulties that students and not too experienced animators face are of such scale, I think your advice amounts to this one: "spend all your nights working at this for ten years, only to discover that all that time went to the dustbin"

No, thanks, I am a strong advocate of division of labor..

I do not patronize people, any reading on my posts here should prove that. Its VERY easy to patronize someone, tell them what they want to hear and do a horrible disservice to them. I'm not actively dissuading anyone either.....the reality of it all can do that better than I.

I have not said nor implied otherwise. I know how to take comments impersonnaly. Thank a lot for the helpful stuff.

A lot of your replies have been quite cynical, and quite off putting. I think you have a fine grasp of the english language. It doesn't help to respond in this manner when people are giving you an honest answer to your questions, even if they're not the answers you were hoping to get.

Well, well, this is a first for me: The theoretically offended party accepts apologies but someone else, not addessed by me in the firt place, insists in being offended. What can I say...? Oh, yes: thaks for the compliment.

Yes, you can get your project done for about half of what Ken stated, but you will have to severely cut back on your creative control. By this, I mean the characters will have to be very stylized to work in Flash, the backgrounds will also have to be simplified.

Simplified as related to what? I said from the beginning I was targeting SIMPLE.

NO big snazzy panning truck ins and outs. Also you will not have the power of very many retakes and approval passes. Maybe two passes at character and BG designs, and one or two max at the story boards. After that maybe a quarter animation retake notes.

Well, at least this will have been practical info. Thanks for it.
If you go any lower than that, your quality will drop to unuseble levels.

Well, well, this is a first for me: The theoretically offended party accepts apologies but someone else, not addessed by me in the firt place, insists in being offended. What can I say...? Oh, yes: thaks for the compliment.

Is it not possible that you are capable of offending multiple people?

Any way, you seem to know exactly what you are doing so good luck to you and your project. I hope you inspire lots of children to take up music.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

Is it not possible that you are capable of offending multiple people?

Frankly, no. Not with what I have been posting here. No offensive language, no insults (unlike some who call people "cynical" when they don't like their opinions) Just an exchange of ideas.

And good luck to you too, ape. I hope you animate the next set of Star Wars

`aka`aka

Lettland (Latvia), Russia, Poland, Czech Rep...
all have incredible artists, long solid traditions in animation

The creation of moving pictures in a two-dimensional environment, such as through "traditional" cel animation or in computerized animation software. This is done by sequencing consecutive images, or "frames", that simulate motion by each image showing the next in a gradual progression of steps. The eye can be "fooled" into perceiving motion when these consecutive images are shown at a rate of 24 frames per second or faster.

Hello? I think this is the wrong thread that you've posted this to.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Do let me know if I can help you? I am from India and am also handling a couple of korean 3D animation projects (not animation series though, but architectural).

there are enough people out there with different economies, so it doesn't hurt where someone is doing this at a lower cost and helping their economy.

And people here do understand the difference between classical and limited animation.
.

Thanks a lot, vciti

I most certainly will ask for your help at some point in the near future. For the time being, though, my storyboarder left me and my real job (the one making food appear on my table) is geting demanding as a jealous mistress, so I'll have to park this for, say, a month:(

Meanwhile, I'm sooooo glad somebody understands the principles of international trade and limited animation (why, should we toss to the fire the whole of Hanna Barbera's productions?)

Wish you the best

Like you, I also have a story to tell. I think it is an amazing one - I am waiting to get enough funds to create my pitch, and then try to get some funding.

I would look for your mail!

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

If you can get a contact, there are about quadruple the amount animation studios in Japan and Korea that will do the work for about a fifth of the cost of their US counterparts. I have payed 20,000 for a 20 minute project and am very satisfied. Just do the research.

could you give me the reference of the people who worked for you? Do they have any samples? Thanks a lot for the fresh air in this.

i hope you dont take Ken's post the wrong way. its just that it is hard to take a thread titled "how cheap" seriously. this here is an art and a lot of peoples life's work so its a bit demeaning.

besides that i think you need to clarify exactly what you need and for which audience. ideally you could create something in Flash, quick paced and get it done in a place like South Korea, India or parts of Eastern Europe.

I would refrain from going to Japan unless the stylistic aspects match (look, feel, edit)

i hope you dont take Ken's post the wrong way. its just that it is hard to take a thread titled "how cheap" seriously. this here is an art and a lot of peoples life's work so its a bit demeaning.

Not at all. He's come up with a lot of useful stuff, and probably it is my fault if I was not able to convey better my questions here.

I wish nobody takes the title of my thread in the way you do. I thought my post made sufficiently clear its meaning. Again, my fault if it didn't. Here's how it is: Most of the previous threads I read on this subject were more or less concerned with how much one would have to depart from an assumed target of high quality traditional animation to reduce their budgets.

Now, for a number of reasons I explained, I am not primarily concerned with the quality of the animation itself, and I actually am looking for a simple style in Flash with very simple backgrounds and basic movements.

So for me, it is not a matter of how far from the classic animation ideal I have to go, but of how cheap, as opossed to expensive can be 40 minutes of animation, and how. Which techniques are cheaper than other and why, how can flash reduce the labor requirements for a given project, which styles and techniques can save you money.

All this would help me get what I want but still pay the animators their work's worth. On the other hand, the lesser entity of the project doesn't mean that the work is necessarily devoid of professional or economic interest. To put an example, a taxi driver friend of mine says that he wishes all he got were short rides, since they are more expensive by the minute. What I was trying to get was some advice on how to cut down on the workload of this project so as to make it more attractive to animators.

As I have said before, more than quotes, I would be interested in how to make it cheaper from the start.

besides that i think you need to clarify exactly what you need and for which audience.

You mean I should go into further detail than in my first two posts?

ideally you could create something in Flash, quick paced and get it done in a place like South Korea, India or parts of Eastern Europe.

Eastern Europe is a very interesting possibility, since I live in W. Europe. Also Korea, were I have lived long and have some contacts that could help me out with daily communication. Do you have suggestions?

I would refrain from going to Japan unless the stylistic aspects match (look, feel, edit)

You mean the manga feel? Do all of them work only that line? Or is there any other reason to refrain? I am very interested in this possibility because I can speak the language and communication would be muuuuch easier there.

Thank you very much for your help. I have read many of your posts and have a great respect for your equanimous and feet-on-earthed views. I think the fact that not all of us have huge budgets is not a reason to dismiss beforehand our work as hopeless crap. Especially when, despite many things said here, rates in this industry seem to cover a broad range, to say the least.

Thank you for your help.

Budgets are always a difficult bump in the road to negotiate but there is always a way.

Korea and Japan should be great places to work with coz they know manga and could be relatively cheaper. For a non-manga piece it would take a great deal of prep work and expertise which would require guys higher up the value chain making it more expensive.

for non-manga animation, if you want people who can just execute what they are given you could give Indian studios a shot.

I have some experience with Filipino artists, the ones i worked with the quality was ok but the speed was amazing. the cost was about 20% more than i would spend in India...

Let's get back to helping Sek Smith

Hi Sek

Sorry to join in late. I have not been checking here for the last few months (not that anybody would miss me anyway).

I went through the last 3 pages. Except for a few good directions, mostly it went without hard figures.

Do let me know if I can help you? I am from India and am also handling a couple of korean 3D animation projects (not animation series though, but architectural).

Neither is Korea only about Manga nor India just about snakes and bangles. They have their distinctive styles, but to believe that they would defy the character and pose sheets would be to belittle their intelligence. Like you rightly said, there are enough people out there with different economies, so it doesn't hurt where someone is doing this at a lower cost and helping their economy.

Someone rightly mentioned that right away India is cheaper than Philippines, Japan and Korea. And people here do understand the difference between classical and limited animation.

There are certain series which make limited use of time and still bring out the essence.

Well some hard figures - in India you should be able to get animation starting at about $100,000 for a 40 minute limited animation. You can go ahead and ask me to do it if you don't believe this.

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

Thank you for the useful information, Skinny. I had somehow assumed that the Philippines were cheaper than India, I see I was wrong.

How about Eastern Europe. I am guessing that would be the Czech Republic and... Somewhere else?

The quickest animation I've done would be http://yogyog.org/animation/kingtroony.htm . 12 minutes in about two weeks. As you see it's proper cheap styley without lipsinc. And I didn't record the soundtrack - I think that took longer, and it was fineshed before I started. I guess Aqua Teen Hunger Force use an automated lip-sinc system. I also guess that budget for Aqua Teen Hunger Force included recording the soundtrack. Can you do that? Recording 40 mins of music is no meen feat in its self! That's half an album. You can make it easier for the animators by recording everything at 120bpm (12 frames per beat @ 24fps) or 160bpm (8 frames per beet @24fps). Or 80 or 240 bpm.

Mike Futcher - www.yogyog.org

Again a helpful contribution, thanks a lot. I guess that at some point I'll have to decide between blowing this full scale (create a company, etc.) and forgetting the whole thing

this kid was just an overnight sensation who spent this whole thread arguing other than making it happen

like all of 'em here

a kid in his parents' basement ready to start his multi-millionaire animation studio

how in the world did this thread attract so many responses lol ????

Czech Rep, Poland (good stuff comes out of there)

Again a helpful contribution, thanks a lot. I guess that at some point I'll have to decide between blowing this full scale (create a company, etc.) and forgetting the whole thing

this kid was just an overnight sensation who spent this whole thread arguing other than making it happen

like all of 'em here

a kid in his parents' basement ready to start his multi-millionaire animation studio

how in the world did this thread attract so many responses lol ????

Probably because it demanded the same answers and explanations that are needed time and again.

As for making it happen, there's plenty of us "happenin'" folks here on these forums.
I've actually co-owned and ran an animation studio, and speaking from my own experience anyone thinking about doing it really needs to do their homework. Most people don't.
Most people see it as a affectation that blindly charms them with the allure of fortume and perhaps fame. Once they get the first smidge of realization how serious and challenging the endeavour is........they abandon it.

And I think that's just the most wonderful thing.

It far better to have these folks pop their own dream-balloon and forsake this fools-errand than take the steps that others have and set up an unviable studio that blows its jobs, stiffs its hired talent and creates ( if anything) shit product. An animation studio really is a do-or-die proposition. And I did not have enough "do" in me to stay with the studio I co-founded, so I got out.
I wasn't in it for the money, but for the craft, and when it became more about money........I bailed without regrets.

Most of the folks that post their lovely ideas about studios and projects here are not cartoonists or animators and have no effin clue about the business.
I have little sympathy for them and I'm STILL waiting for ANY ONE OF THEM to come back to a forum like this and tell me they did it anyway and succeeded.

None of them ever will.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

some explanations

Maybe some degree of explanation is needed, after all. Let's see:

[LIST]
[*]I have already written the script and a (probably insatisfactory) description of shoots, backgrounds and so on
[*]I am compiling documentation for the aesthetic concept (photos, drawings, sceneries, wardrobe etc)
[*]I count on an illustrator who will do storyboarding, animatics and sample animation to set the style
[*]The soundtrack is ready
[*]As a norm, there will be two characters on stage, although only one will be really doing something, most of the time. At times there will be one, sometimes more, but I would say that 90% of the time it's two
[/LIST]

Again, I will be obliged for any help or advice you are willing to offer. Best

$10,000 a minute is standard.

If you insist on cheap, then you'll probably get shit. And if you want shit, then why proceed with the idea if that's how its going to be portrayed?

Obviously, you want more for less.

There's a host of steps and stages in between where you are now and where you want the idea to be.
And there's a enormous range of problems lying along the path.

Here's what cheap typically get's people though: inexperienced talent.
When you get inexperienced talent, you get weak problem-solving. You get shoddy work and piss-poor commitments. Cheap doesn't cover picky. When pay is low, talent will not sit still while their work is picked apart. If there's no money to cover corrections and retakes---whose going to fix the work, or want to?
Without a mechanism to ensure quality, you get end-results that seldom represent your idea in the best light.
Now......that's assuming you go cheap on paying the talent.
Cheap usually gets you ugly......and if South Park is what you want visually, then ugly it is. Ugly doesn't sell anything though.
South Park sells its message through an awful lot of sass and audacity.
Its ugliness works for it--but its not all-encompassing approach.

That $10K a minute.......or $400K for a 40 min feature is your rough estimate.
Its going to cover a range of costs and contingencies, and because once you commmit, you'll probably want that amount to see the thing through.
The argument for going less than that is if things go wrong ( and you name it and it can go wrong) then its probably going to take bucks to put things back on track.

1000 feet a day would require about 500 artists, maybe 300--easy guess that is not realistic.

The rule of thumb is probably between 30-50 feet a week ( even in FLASH, assuming builds are all done) AT THE TOP OUTSIDE. The practical number is half that rate: 15-25 feet per week.
40 mins of animation is 57600 frames, or about 3600 feet.
If you have a given person doing 20 feet a week, you'd need a crew of at least 10 people to animate for about 4-6 months.
Each person would need to be paid about........$1500 min per week.....assuming it goes to 6 months.....boom, you are looking at $360K right there. That's JUST for the animation, and not the builds or anything else.
If you go 2D, add layout, tweens and clean-up all on top of that-plus equipment to line-test etc(if you are doing singing, then characters have to animate to lip-synch and thus need to be line-tested to see if the animation is working). Every additional character over one adds to the time, and thus the cost.
I doubt you could get that much animation done for less than $200K in that amount of time. Even if you drag the time-line out some and cut the wages....its still going to add up to about the same.

If you've read all the threads here on this kind of thing, then you've read the arguements WHY spending "more" get's you more.
The advice repeated here many times before remains the same, if costs are a huge concern, scale back the project to the point that the running time versus costs per minute is at feature quality.
That is to say if you cannot afford a $400K production, but a $40K one instead, then you really only have 4 minutes , not 40, at best to do your piece in.
Your approach is NO different than any of the other queries on this matter---everyone thinks their situation is unique--and everyone who asks this is faced with the exact same questions to answer and situations to deal with.
Animation is not cheap and there is no getting around it and the headaches involved.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

let's get down to it

Hi Ken, I thought you would be replying, thanks a lot for that. May I do some boresome comments?

$10,000 a minute is standard.

This seems to be your approach to any kind of project. Yo quoted it for a guy set on a version of the Three Little Pigs in WB style. I was hoping that my explanations would make readers realize that I was aiming at something simpler. Failure?

If you insist on cheap, then you'll probably get shit. And if you want shit, then why proceed with the idea if that's how its going to be portrayed?

And who's to say I, or the general public don't like shit? billions of flies dig it. As you (and, for that matter, I as well) said, Southpark is a shitty series which got a lot of success. I understand that capacity has to be proven first and that my chances of getting as successful as them are near zero, but nevertheless, thanks a bunch for assuming it beforehand and without regard to many details provided in my post (the thing being mainly educative, importance of the content related to the animation, etc.)

Obviously, you want more for less.

Obviously. Isn't that what capitalism is all about? Being American you should know that, I admire the competitiveness of your civilization. That said, As a matter of fact, what I want is LESS, well yes, for less.

You seem to think always in terms of Disney animation, which speaks high of the quality of your work. Sadly, I know well I can't hire professionals of your stature, which is why I was asking for factor inputs, rather than prices. Like you pointed in a previous post, inexperienced students are cheaper than seasoned professionals and seasoned professionals from poor countries cheaper than the ones from rich countries like, say, Canada? Again capitalism at work, I'm happy they can get the jobs to jump start their economies and I am willing to pay them a fair (as related to their market) rate.

What you say about getting what you pay for is only partially true. In labor intensive services sectors, where the quality depends on the skills of the worker but prices are subject to international competition, one can get very different rates by shopping around. Obviously what you said still applies partially, in the sense that coordination and productions tasks will be more exhausting, but what can I do. I have to make up for my lack of resources with work, I guess. I sincerely hope you are not implying that any work done out of your continent is bound to be shit. Surely there are good professionals in other places as well?

I do appreciate your pointing out that reality is never as rosy as we outsiders picture it, however. It is something too often overlooked and I am not free of that sin, as you have noticed.

1000 feet a day would require about 500 artists, maybe 300--easy guess that is not realistic.

You can recognize irony where you see it, can't you? ;) Don't take me too literally, I warned beforehand I was an ignorant. And try not to be too sour on me, either, I truly appreciate the generosity of your contribution to the community.

Now, let's get down to this:

The rule of thumb is probably between 30-50 feet a week ( even in FLASH, assuming builds are all done) AT THE TOP OUTSIDE. The practical number is half that rate: 15-25 feet per week.
40 mins of animation is 57600 frames, or about 3600 feet.

I understand that halving that is common practice for lesser quality works, which are still very viewable. Half is quite a chunk.

If you have a given person doing 20 feet a week, you'd need a crew of at least 10 people to animate for about 4-6 months.
Each person would need to be paid about........$1500 min per week.....assuming it goes to 6 months.....boom, you are looking at $360K right there.

Now I'm curious: in a previous thread you said to a student what to expect from dedication to this busines. I quote you:

[I]MOST people make subsistence wages.....that is averaging around $30K-$40K a year. Some will report more, few a bit less. Some with jobs holding more responsibility can take home up to and over $100k a year--but that's not going to happen overnight.
Bear in mind that ONLY the TOP 10% are making the huge money--$250K or more--and those folks are very talented to boot.[/I]

Certainly this numbers go badly with the weekly salaries you estimate for my contractors? Also, I never follow you when you talk schedules. If animators get paid on an hourly basis it seems to me it should take the same amount of money but less time to employ a group of them. am I missing something here?

That's JUST for the animation, and not the builds or anything else.
If you go 2D, add layout, tweens and clean-up all on top of that

OK, now you're talking: This is the most important part of my questions - would these still be needed in a "shitty" production?

-plus equipment to line-test etc

I guess the price of this comes bundled in with the rate of the offshore animator?

(if you are doing singing, then characters have to animate to lip-synch and thus need to be line-tested to see if the animation is working).

I do indeed. How cheap/expensive can that get?

Every additional character over one adds to the time, and thus the cost.

Useful stuff. Would you say it doubles the needs for inputs or should I consider a different factor? What if the characters not singing kind of rock on their heels rather than moving around? Would that be bearable in your experience?

I doubt you could get that much animation done for less than $200K in that amount of time. Even if you drag the time-line out some and cut the wages....its still going to add up to about the same.

Well, this is half what of what you were quoting at the beginning. Do you consider that an absolute minimum? Some people in this forum were quoting as low as 250$ a minute, others 1.000$ for Flash done in India... Should I assume all of them offer crap?

If you've read all the threads here on this kind of thing, then you've read the arguements WHY spending "more" get's you more.

But of course I realize that! It just happens that not all of us have bottomless pockets, but one would say that there would be a place under the sun for producers less muscled than the big studios in L.A.

Your approach is NO different than any of the other queries on this matter---everyone thinks their situation is unique--and everyone who asks this is faced with the exact same questions to answer and situations to deal with.

I beg to differ. All the threads I read here where from someone going for Disney style animation. May I point out that it is rather your approach which seems to be unchanging, regardless of the scope of the work proposed? No offense, really, but you seem to have excessively exacting standards of quality, at least for a world where Southpark lands success. Your aesthetic fastidiousness makes you a lot of credit but, please, do consider that it is not a sin to aim "slightly" (I know, I know, it is not slightly, it's a huge world appart - irony coming!!!) lower than that. We all have but one lifetime and limited resources and that doesn't mean we shouldn't chase our dreams, even if we are such pussies as to try to limit risk (I do).

Animation is not cheap and there is no getting around it and the headaches involved.

I would have thought that this point had been sufficiently stressed by now... I guess it is always good to hammer that.

Now, what about cutouts, Flash graphics, stop motion and so forth? Would I be needing a color specialist, a setup guy a younameit? Ken? Anybody? Sleeklizard? Please...

A quick web search came up with a production budget of about $60,000 per 11-minute episode for AquaTeen Hunger Force--a show as bad, if not worse than South Park--or around $5500 per minute.

Go lower than that, and I assume you'll get something even the "flies" aren't interested in.

Hi Moose,

Thank you for your two cents. Call me greedy, but I was in fact hoping for more than two cents value for replies. You can very well imagine I can and have made what you call "a quick web search" What use would fora like this one be if one could make do with "quick web searches"?

I don't believe that information published on the net by producers is of any practical use. It's goal is more related to marketing than to spreading knowledge.

But let's not get off the point. I was asking and still am, about differences in input requirements of different techniques. If you have some valuable insight in this subject, I would be by all means interested. Thank you for your try, but it is not my goal to start haggling over what approximate budgets should be, rather why.

Lovely!

Just what is needed to blow life into what now is getting repetitive.

Firstly, new seeds will always take root and ask the same questions. Knowing the answers doesn't make us greater. I keep returning here, maybe, just maybe one answer helps a soul get just the extra affirmation that one seeks before going down an untrodden path. There is no right or wrong, it's better to go seek your dreams, even at the highest risk of losing than doing a silly job which you didn't like, for 30 years at your desk, and being seen off by people who didn't like you.

I would not expect speilberg to come and tell his story or Walt to come back here, but that doesn't mean that the people who actually have questions shouldn't try to get answers?

http://www.3danimationtrainingstudio.com I still have not told my story! - Vineet Raj Kapoor

I think part of the confusion, sek, is that you're relating the high production costs only to the quality of the animation. You're leaving out the factor of time.

Regardless of the desired quality, you are requesting 40 minutes of animation with multiple characters who require a lot of lip-synching. If you hope to complete the production within a reasonable amount of time, you will definitely need to hire more than one animator. You will also need these animators to work full-time on your production. If the animators are working full-time, then they will need their monthly living expenses covered for the duration of the project. If you're not willing to pay enough to cover their needs, then it's like the animators are paying you to work on your production. That's not exactly a fair trade.

As an independent animator, I understand your desire to get your project off the ground. But you shouldn't look to take advantage of people to do so. I'm not saying that you need to necessarily shell out $10K/minute, but you should look for a solution that would be beneficial to everyone involved.

Ken does make a very good point, in that you should consider making a shorter production. It can be a demo of the music, characters, and style of the desired 40 minute animation. Then you could use the demo as a marketing tool to help you gain more funding to produce the full 40 minutes.

As a side note, South Park is not at all a cheap production. It uses 3D animation, high end software, and a team of people to animate it. I don't know the exact figures, but I think the cost per episode is in the $100K's. Its poor quality appearance is very misleading. ;)

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Regardless of the desired quality, you are requesting 40 minutes of animation with multiple characters who require a lot of lip-synching.

This is a point of interest to me. Could you explain to me how lip-synchronizing will affect costs? Forgive my ignorance...

If you hope to complete the production within a reasonable amount of time, you will definitely need to hire more than one animator. You will also need these animators to work full-time on your production. If the animators are working full-time, then they will need their monthly living expenses covered for the duration of the project.

Time is not such an important issue for me, but I can see your point. Full time can be more expensive than part time and that will doubtlessly factor in, although I wonder if the difference is as great as many posts in this forum suggest. After all part-timers also need to eat...

If you're not willing to pay enough to cover their needs, then it's like the animators are paying you to work on your production. That's not exactly a fair trade.

I'm affraid you are jumping to conclussions. Why do you assume I want to enslave the poor animators? Since Abolition every man is free to accept or reject any job offered to him. Presumably he won't accept a pay which doesn't cover his living expenses. These expenses, on the other hand, are bound to be VERY different in different countries.

As an independent animator, I understand your desire to get your project off the ground. But you shouldn't look to take advantage of people to do so. I'm not saying that you need to necessarily shell out $10K/minute, but you should look for a solution that would be beneficial to everyone involved.

Rest assured, I will not go to the "merchant ship" to buy animators, nor damage my karma in any other way for this project. Thanks for your concern.

Ken does make a very good point, in that you should consider making a shorter production. It can be a demo of the music, characters, and style of the desired 40 minute animation. Then you could use the demo as a marketing tool to help you gain more funding to produce the full 40 minutes.

In fact, Ken's only advice was to shorten the animation, full stop. The idea of using the short parts to seek funding is great, thanks a lot for offering it. However, I might be wrong in this, but I just don't feel like going through the hassle of negotiating the outcome with partners. This is a very personal project and my vision would be lost in the process. Even if it is a vision of a foul smelling brown heap, it is still mine.

As a side note, South Park is not at all a cheap production. It uses 3D animation, high end software, and a team of people to animate it. I don't know the exact figures, but I think the cost per episode is in the $100K's. Its poor quality appearance is very misleading. ;)

Well, I'll be damned! They have a way to conceal all these resources, don't they? I guess that's what you call elegance...

This is a point of interest to me. Could you explain to me how lip-synchronizing will affect costs? Forgive my ignorance...

I can see it affecting costs in terms of how detailed (the use of proper mouth shapes) and how well timed (corresponding accurately to the dialogue) you want the lip-synching to be, which translates into the amount of time the animators would need to work.

I'm affraid you are jumping to conclussions. Why do you assume I want to enslave the poor animators? Since Abolition every man is free to accept or reject any job offered to him. Presumably he won't accept a pay which doesn't cover his living expenses. These expenses, on the other hand, are bound to be VERY different in different countries.

Rest assured, I will not go to the "merchant ship" to buy animators, nor damage my karma in any other way for this project. Thanks for your concern.

This is funny. I was speaking in general terms and I don't assume that you want to enslave poor animators. However, some of your comments...

Like I said, my main priority regarding animation is to keep it CHEAP.

What would the best choices of style, techniques, programas, etc be in view of keeping costs as low as possible?

Obviously. Isn't that what capitalism is all about? That said, As a matter of fact, what I want is LESS, well yes, for less.

don't leave a positive impression.

The idea of using the short parts to seek funding is great, thanks a lot for offering it. However, I might be wrong in this, but I just don't feel like going through the hassle of negotiating the outcome with partners. This is a very personal project and my vision would be lost in the process. Even if it is a vision of a foul smelling brown heap, it is still mine.

That's perfectly understandable. But I also meant collecting "donations" from people who would like to contribute to the finished product. I've seen websites that have PayPal donation buttons where people can contribute to the funding of the film. The people who donate typically don't have control over the production, but are usually given something in exchange like a mention in the credits.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think I'm detecting a bit of cynicism in some of your responses? It's great that you're seeking information, but the cynicism isn't necessary when people are just trying to be helpful.

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I think there's some mistaking when I'm quoting that $10,000 per minute of animation amount--I'm NOT quoting that for Disney feature quality, I'm quoting that for typical TV animated series quality. Disney feature animation costs easily 10-times that amount--at minimum.

This is really just a classic matter of you get what you pay for--which is the crux of the whole "argument" here.
I'm not talking about anyone in the food-chain here lining their pockets......and as an animation pro, I simply do not care about anyone's project, or their dreams.
That's the cold-stated reality, because as a de facto "mercenary" cartoonist ( which is what any freelancer could be considered) the "loyalty" one brings starts and stops at the paycheque.
If the project has merit, is well run, looks good and the co-workers are fun and friendly and all is happiness and fluffy clouds.......then that's awesome. But that's not why someone like myself does the work. Sure, any project needs its champions.......but I'm not that champion and I do not advise from that POV. That is why I say I do not care about another's dreams--its not intended to be insulting, its simply not my cause to champion.

To that end, to secure professionals to do the work, to create work to best serve you and your project...that is clearly going to take "something" to attract such people.
Again, another cold-stated reality--one which we doubtlessly both accept.
When I'm stating a wage or $1,500 per week per animator, I'm not talking year round, I'm stating a total wage for that week for the duration of a project, likely to last only 6 months. Its a low-to-mid-range wage for that kind of work.

Like a lawyer stating he charges $150 an hour.....that is the "going-rate"--just like my stated $10,000 a minute is likewise the standard going rate.
Its the ball-park figure to consider in this equation and obviously the stated amount makes you uncomfortable.

If you can meet that, then you'll probably have a smoother climb to meet your goal, if you cannot meet that then my advice ( based on experience) says prepare to make adjustments.

Let's give you an example here to chew on:

We talked about lip-synch work--and you asked about this.
Lip-synch, or lip synchronization, is animation of the character's mouth to specifically voice the phonetic sounds of a given track of dialogue--in this case music.
That means that the animator has to animate to the sound track, (and the timing sheets ) which need to be broken down to supply those phonetic sounds.
The work MUST be animated carefully, and then line-tested to make sure it is synchronized. Failure to do that creates a situation where the character is not singing to the words spoke and thus all the entertainment value can be lost because of the "technical glitch".
This isn't something that the editors can simply fix, buy sliding the track along the animation to match things up better--the specific cues need to be animated in properly from the get-go.

And its not just the mouth flapping either. The body of the character and any gestures they emote would, in this case, also be cued to specific beats in the music at specific times. A hand flourish can cue a crescendo, can signal a lull......etc. If the body is doing any kind of bounce to the timing of the music that needs to be worked out in synch as well. Some of this can be done via limited animation--a character's body and face held as a non-moving layer and only their face/jaw/mouth moves--but that depends upon the designs.
If a character is turning while singing, then that must be animated fully as well-its not a matter of just pastiing a mouth onto the body.
How involved this gets depends upon the demands of the business on screen--cheat/abuse it too much and the animation loses its credibility.
Because all this work needs to be meticulously cued to the music, it means more concentration on the part of the animator, which means more time taken, which means LESS work produced because of the constant testing and re-testing of the footage to make sure the proper beats are being hit at the proper time.
Less work produced means the project is scheduled for longer, or the numbers of bodies hired rises.......and costs are affected accordingly.
If the "punchline" of all this is meant to be delivered properly...then this degree of attention to detail needs to be paid.
The audience must take it for granted the amount of thinking and work that goes into the process to make it credible.
Even if the goal is "shit meant for flies"--that punch-line outcome remains because that is the essence of the whole enterprise, not its visual window dressing.

This.........is quite simply what's been discussed here and why those values have been bandied about.
The $10K ball park figure isn't just getting you animated product--its getting you the pre- and post- production amounts rolled in there as well.

[B]This is also why its also been stated that if the outcome sought doesn't "need to be professional" in scope, one can save all that money by doing it all themselves.
The software is out there, the basic instruction as well, all that the project's champion need bring is time, patience and the will to do it.
If the vision is personal, then I strongly advice anyone to consider going it alone even if it greatly increases the amount of time it takes.[/B]

You can hire amateurs to do the work--students and what-not......but the working realities they face are the same as a professional and they seldom bring to a project the kind of seasoned experience needed to solve problems. You pay a bit more for a pro, you get someone that has solved some or most of these problems before. It also means you save money in the long-term because inexperience can cost you dearly.
One thing that a LOT of laymen overlook is that, in terms of technical abilities, insight and disciplines, an animator is akin to a airline pilot or space shuttle astronaut in terms of the scope of their training. I'm not making that up either--it comes from a Reader's Digest article I read years ago. Just "drawing" is such a small part of it all.

Because I do not know you, and cannot say if you know what you are doing, so I AM going to come from a POV that says you likely do NOT know what you are doing and assume that your learning curve will be steep (and perilous). Again, that factors into the quoted amount.
Time and again, the responses to queries here repeat the constant fact that the whole process is more involved and layered than the layman considers. The same answers are given over and over because those are the key points that need be addressed in ANYanimated project--its not just reflexive parroted answers going on.

I do not patronize people, any reading on my posts here should prove that. Its VERY easy to patronize someone, tell them what they want to hear and do a horrible disservice to them. I'm not actively dissuading anyone either.....the reality of it all can do that better than I.
Math and money are impersonal and in this case the advice needs to be as well.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

That's perfectly understandable. But I also meant collecting "donations" from people who would like to contribute to the finished product. I've seen websites that have PayPal donation buttons where people can contribute to the funding of the film. The people who donate typically don't have control over the production, but are usually given something in exchange like a mention in the credits.

Again a helpful contribution, thanks a lot. I guess that at some point I'll have to decide between blowing this full scale (create a company, etc.) and forgetting the whole thing. I had somehow expected to be able to carry this out on the side, while I do my 9 to 5 job, but more and more it looks as if this is not going to be possible. Donators and non-creative partners are always a possibility. And after all, I live in Europe, paradise of state support... I guess my approach is too capitalistic and too Jack Londonish.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think I'm detecting a bit of cynicism in some of your responses? It's great that you're seeking information, but the cynicism isn't necessary when people are just trying to be helpful.

NOT AT ALL. Forgive me if I gave that impression. Put it down to my lack of fluency in English, it is not my native language and I am not always able to convey nuances. I do appreciate your help, as I have stated many times