Search form

Are Vectors good for traditional animation? Here's my attempt in toon boom studio

27 posts / 0 new
Last post
Are Vectors good for traditional animation? Here's my attempt in toon boom studio

Hi everybody,

This is a drawing i made in toon boom studio:

I'm trying to begin my first serious animation and I'm experimenting with a few software. So far from what i've seen, you can't produce traditional type of sketches like those of disney or anime with vector graphics. It just looks too sharp? digital?

For example i wanted the shadows in this drawing to blend a bit more, and make the eyes a bit more detailed and glowy, like in anime.

Also the eraser and brush tool usually suck with this type of software (vector based), so it doesnt really have the smooth feeling of drawing.

I dont know if shadows are even possible in Toon boom studio , it really gets on my nerves when i try to do shadows with that software. I also tried tvpaint but didnt like it. Does anyone paint the line art in vectors and does his/her painting elsewhere?

From what i see most 2D software is made for cutout animation,but what i need is one for more traditional based animation, which is going to be hand drawn digitally with a tablet.

I really need to solve this fast so i can start concentrating on the art instead of the technology, it's just nerve breaking.:confused:

Thanks

Here's another drawing i made in Toon Boom studio and i painted the shadows and eyes in Tvpaint.

I think its coming close but i don't seem to be able to composite my material in tv paint due to the lack of a 3d camera, so now i also need a composition software!:D Isnt there a raster based software that combines all this? I can't really afford to buy 3 software.:)

Ok i made a run cycle:D. Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaG5zRv3OcE

I used Tvpaint for animation and coloring, photoshop for a quick background, and i composited in Toon boom studio.
I'm a newbie so it aint much of an animation, so it was basically used for software experimenting. From what i can say , personally i can draw,animate and paint in Tvpaint a lot faster than toon boom studio and it was a lot more enjoyable drawing in tvpaint, although i find its animation layers a bit nerve breaking.
The thing is i have no idea how to composite a scene with multiple software, where a character interacts with the background, for example jumps on background elements while the camera is panning. How would that be composited in a software like toon boom or after effects?

I had this same issue with Toon Boom losing the "quality" of the line in my drawings.

I'd say that Digicel Flipbook might be a better option for what you're trying to do. I'm having to put together some numbers for a TV pilot and that's the software we're leaning towards.

Although, if anyone has any better suggestions, I'm all ears.

The thing I see missing from your drawing is thick and thin line variation, which can be tricky to get in a vector program. You can get close by using a tablet and turning on the pressure option, but since that generates more data per line, your file sizes will increase.

Vector fills (like in your shadows) are either one solid color with a defined edge or gradients that transition from one color to another. Using a gradient can give you the softer look you're looking for, but it'll take a little work on your part and may come back to bite you when the drawings start to move. Take another look at the shadows in the anime you're watching - you'll probably find they are single-color with defined edges.

As for the eyes, it's up to you to put in the "more detailed and glowy" aspects. The software can't do that for you.

Hi Dsb, the reason i didn't use pressure point was because then i had to increase the maximum size of the brush, and then it makes the line too fat in toon boom.
Compared to traditional animation the line would be too intense. Also yes i know that the shadows in anime are of one color but im talking about the edge, that is a bit smoother, and yes you can put sparkles and iris shadows on the eye but it will still look sharp, what i meant is to have that smudge-blurred effect you get when drawing in raster graphics, i also don't wanna go near gradients they just make the whole thing seem even more computerised.

Thanks for the reply:)

what i need is one for more traditional based animation, which is going to be hand drawn digitally with a tablet.

You should take a look at TVPaint .

"EustaceScrubb" has left the building

You should take a look at TVPaint .

I allready did but it just seems to make things harder when it comes to animation.

What program did you use to create your avatar?

What program did you use to create your avatar?

I made it in photoshop, if only it had better animation tools..:D

Smudged and blurred effects in any software are going to be difficult to animate.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

You can achieve soft shadows and blurred effects, but you'll need the right tools. I can't say that Toon Boom would be ideal for that. You'd need something like RETAS, Toonz, or Animo.

RETAS for example, has an airbrush effect which you can apply to your color breaks to soften them.

These were created in Flash with Flash's tools.


The first is easily animated I wouldn't even attempt to animate the second. You have to decide which is more important animation or blurring and smudging.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EustaceScrubb
You should take a look at TVPaint .

I allready did , but it just seems to make things harder when it comes to animation.

Sorry, about that . You did say that you had already tried it in one of your earlier posts. I guess what I meant to say was : "Give TVPaint another look." and I'll say it again now. It is rather a complicated program and the learning curve is steep , but I'd say it's worth it , however, in the end "your results may vary".

You say you're looking for something that is more like traditional animation drawing, by which I understand you are looking for something that can simulate natural media (i.e. a pencil and/or pens, markers, watercolors ) and can do effects like soft shadows. TVPaint or Mirage can do that . The limited pen tools in ToonBoom just aren't all that versatile to me . The only area where I think ToonBoom excels over TVPaint or Mirage is that the Exposure Sheet function in ToonBoom is better . Of course, this isn't a ToonBoom vs. TVPaint thread and I'm not trying to turn it into one , but based on what you say you're looking for I think you'd be more likely to find it in something like TVPaint .

Have you considered simply drawing your animation on paper with a pencil, scan into Photoshop (since you said you like PS) , do your coloring in Photoshop , then composite in AfterEffects ? (I've read about people using that Photoshop to AfterEffects method ) .

I will say that I've heard of at least one animator , Shawn McInerney, using TVPaint to rough out his animation (because it feels more like using a real pencil , especially with a Cintiq tablet) , then he imports to ToonBoom to do his final line clean ups in vector. Shawn may have posted about that here on AWN forums . Search around.

"EustaceScrubb" has left the building

Vakis,

I just noticed you amended your earlier post with this comment :

I don't seem to be able to composite my material in tv paint due to the lack of a 3d camera

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. What are you trying to composite ? TVPaint has a system of layers , which can be considered analagous to the old cel system , with the background painting on the bottom layer and artwork painted on clear layers (cels) stacked in progressive levels on top of the background , the camera pointed down and as each frame is recorded the various cel levels combine into a single image . The difference is in TVPaint the "cel layers" are all digital , so you can resize them, skew them, add effects , etc. to each individual layer before compositing the final image for output to digital video . One of the advantages of TVPaint or Mirage (more or less the same programs) is that it contains very powerful FX Stack, Keyframing (for camera moves) , and compositing capabilities.

May I suggest you post your questions at the TVPaint forum or on the Mirage side of things at the Mirage Forum . You'll find a very helpful user group at both places.

"EustaceScrubb" has left the building

Vakis,

I just noticed you amended your earlier post with this comment :

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. What are you trying to composite ? TVPaint has a system of layers , which can be considered analagous to the old cel system , with the background painting on the bottom layer and artwork painted on clear layers (cels) stacked in progressive levels on top of the background , the camera pointed down and as each frame is recorded the various cel levels combine into a single image . The difference is in TVPaint the "cel layers" are all digital , so you can resize them, skew them, add effects , etc. to each individual layer before compositing the final image for output to digital video . One of the advantages of TVPaint or Mirage (more or less the same programs) is that it contains very powerful FX Stack, Keyframing (for camera moves) , and compositing capabilities.

May I suggest you post your questions at the TVPaint forum or on the Mirage side of things at the Mirage Forum . You'll find a very helpful user group at both places.

Sorry i wasn't very clear on that one, from what it seems tvpaint does not have a camera (3d or not) so i guess someone would play with layer position and size to simulate pans or zooms (dont know if that's even possible). it would be ok when you have a couple of layers but if there are more it would be really time consuming,offcourse correct me if i'm wrong. Can you even automate layer position and size to simulate camera properties?

I will try to animate and paint completely in tvpaint to see how that goes and maby try to composite in after effects.

cheers and thanks again.

Smudged and blurred effects in any software are going to be difficult to animate.

I'm not really looking for complicated smudges or blurs, just a bit on the eyes for close ups and very lightly on the shadow (or light) edges. Just enough for it to not to look so digital, more or less like the second drawing i posted.

cheers.:)

Can you even automate layer position and size to simulate camera properties?

Yes. That's what the Keyframer module in the FX Stack is for. Look up in TVPaint Help for FX Stack, KeyFramer , camera moves, pans. Or post questions on TVPaint user forum. Or look at the Bauhaus Software Mirage tutorials posted on the Bauhaus site. (Bauhaus definitely has a better set of tutorials posted online. Some small details may vary from the TVPaint interface , but overall anything that works in Mirage will be the same in TVPaint.)

TVPaint/Mirage is part animation program, part EFX program, part compositing program. Animating in TVPaint and then taking it into AfterEffects for camera moves and compositing would be overkill , unless you already understand AfterEffects better and it's part of your production pipeline that you don't want to give up. But not necessary if you have TVPaint/Mirage.

"EustaceScrubb" has left the building

Yes. That's what the Keyframer module in the FX Stack is for. Look up in TVPaint Help for FX Stack, KeyFramer , camera moves, pans. Or post questions on TVPaint user forum. Or look at the Bauhaus Software Mirage tutorials posted on the Bauhaus site. (Bauhaus definitely has a better set of tutorials posted online. Some small details may vary from the TVPaint interface , but overall anything that works in Mirage will be the same in TVPaint.)

TVPaint/Mirage is part animation program, part EFX program, part compositing program. Animating in TVPaint and then taking it into AfterEffects for camera moves and compositing would be overkill , unless you already understand AfterEffects better and it's part of your production pipeline that you don't want to give up. But not necessary if you have TVPaint/Mirage.

I'm gonna give it a go to see if it's easy and quick to simulate layer depth.
Otherwise im gonna try to composite with toon boom cause there will be times where i will have to use up to 5 background layers and animating them all could be time consuming instead of just placing them in a 3d enviroment and animating the camera.
I don't know after effects really well but it has a really cool 3d camera/enviroment, you can even put a floor and a ceiling if you want.
Anyways i hope it works out in tvpaint so the process can be more practical.

Thanks

Animating in TVPaint and then taking it into AfterEffects for camera moves and compositing would be overkill , unless you already understand AfterEffects better and it's part of your production pipeline that you don't want to give up. But not necessary if you have TVPaint/Mirage.

Not overkill if you want authentic 3D camera moves. This is one of the limitations of Mirage that I think may be addressed in the next version, but for now, even panning a background is kind of limited--I know you can use the Keyframer, but it's a much more practical and intuitive thing to do in AE.

That said, I think Mirage is a great animating tool and I much prefer it to Flash or ToonBoon--mainly because I prefer bitmap to vector.

I've been going back and forth myself for some time whether or not to draw my frames in system, vs. on paper. I'm leaning towards paper for roughs at least.

If you're going to do character animation or anything fairly complicated like that with vector, it might be a good procedure to have a sketch layer, then lock that down and trace your clean ups over it. That's essentially the digital version of what's done on paper.

I've been going back and forth myself for some time whether or not to draw my frames in system, vs. on paper. I'm leaning towards paper for roughs at least.

If you're going to do character animation or anything fairly complicated like that with vector, it might be a good procedure to have a sketch layer, then lock that down and trace your clean ups over it. That's essentially the digital version of what's done on paper.

Right on.

I love my digital programs like TVPaint. I love my Cintiq.

BUT

The thing to remember about traditional animation , done on pencil and paper , is that the traditional system as developed at Disney's , Fleischer's , Warner Bros., MGM, UPA, etc. is solid. It's not broken. It doesn't need to be "fixed" . It doesn't necessarily need to be "improved". Digital doesn't automatically make it better. We can animate great things on paper and scan them to digital for ink & paint for finishing. As an example: Look at any 1940's or 1950's Chuck Jones cartoon, animated on paper, inked & painted on cels ,shot frame-by-frame on an Acme camera stand .... and ask yourself : are modern "Flash" style cartoons any better ? Does the digital technology actually add anything of value ?

How about a recent short like Mark Kausler's brilliant "It's The Cat" .... Mark animated it all hand-drawn on paper and it was hand-inked & painted on cels . It's great . It wouldn't be the same in Flash or ToonBoom , or cel-shaded in Maya or whatever .

"EustaceScrubb" has left the building

I think it's a given that the technology doesn't add anything of value to the 2d animation world, it just makes it much cheaper and easier to produce.

It wouldn't be the same in Flash or ToonBoom , or cel-shaded in Maya or whatever .

No it wouldn't. The technology has changed the style and qualities of what cartoons look like. I've seen Japanese anime for example that had some scenes done on traditional cels and the next scene was painted digitally. There was a stark difference in what they looked like. The style is the same but there are qualities that are quite different, like an overall sharpness and highly saturated colors of digital vs. something shot on film.

I've been gathering some acetate cels for study reference, and no matter what cartoon a cel is from it's amazing. Anyone that does animation today should hold a real cel and take it in and study it. Not the sericel prints either, but a real, hand-painted cel.

Not overkill if you want authentic 3D camera moves. This is one of the limitations of Mirage that I think may be addressed in the next version, but for now, even panning a background is kind of limited--I know you can use the Keyframer, but it's a much more practical and intuitive thing to do in AE.

That said, I think Mirage is a great animating tool and I much prefer it to Flash or ToonBoon--mainly because I prefer bitmap to vector.

I'm really curious how you'd use After effects where a character needs to interact with the background. Do you find it easy to do that? Tvpaint has a lot of cool effects, and from what i've seen its alot easier and more natural to draw and paint in it, but i think the capabilities of compositing and effects are even more great in After effects. I'm just wandering how easy it is. For example what do you do when you do a walk cycle? Do you import on video or frame images and copy paste them? Or does it have something like an Xsheet like Toon boom? Also it's really reaaally slow at rendering an animation or video from what i've seen.

I made this in Tvpaint and composited in Toon boom studio.I also posted it in my original post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaG5zRv3OcE

cheers:)

After Effects' rendering engine is pretty complex. It also depends on the resolution of your composition and the complexity of your scene as to how quickly it will render.

After Effects does not have an X-sheet. That's a feature specific to 2D animation programs, and you'd probably be better off compositing 2D animation in something like Toon Boom over After Effects.

You can import a TGA sequence, for example, into After Effects that will show up as a single entity in the project. That image sequence can then be easily composited over a background image, but since there's no X-sheet you won't be able to control the timing.

What type of effects are you looking to do that would require After Effects?

The basic thing i have in mind, is camera rotations or walk throughs. Maby some particles but i can do that in particle illusion i guess. My main concern is the camera depth that will be possible, for example i want simple walkthroughs through hallways and i dont really know 3d so placing them in a 3d camera like in After effects is a big ease, what's your opinion on this? 3d objects with 2d textures? or 2d planes in 3d cameras?

I think you're going to spin your wheels a lot with '3D' perspective transforms on 2D planes, work really hard to get not a lot out of it. I say that compared to a true 3D application and the results it can produce.

You can also cheat a lot of 3D looking camera moves with well planned and composited 2D, but there is a limit to what can be achieved.

One of the best examples I've seen of a 2D character in a rendered 3D environment is the "Beyond" segment of "The Animatrix." It's worth checking out for reference.

Moho Pro is vector based and

Moho Pro is vector based and is less familiar to paper animators but is a lot deeper than even the documentation will tell you. 
I like Moho as an alternative to TBH. But mostly because I like to work/draw/animate with vectors as opposed to paperless, tradigital methods. I hear that OpenToonz is an open source alternative to TBH as well.
TVPaint is great traditional animation workflow on a computer. Wacom Cintiq recommended ...so pricey. I have used it with the regular XP-Pen  Deco Pro digital art tablet and it works well. Great drawing tools. Their website has nice tutorials and galleries.