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Is bad publicity a bad thing?

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Is bad publicity a bad thing?

Recently, during my napalm assault on the Animation Schools thread, someone visited my blog and left a very negative and very anonymous message. At first I thought about how silly that was, but then it made me think about something else. If it hadn’t been for that thread message, that person wouldn’t have visited my site. Who cares the reason… THEY WENT THERE! I remember when I happily and positively linked all of you guys on my site. You all thanked me (thank you!), but the site itself didn’t yield any response. The NEGATIVE thread GOT the visible response. So… is bad publicity a bad thing?

For example, (using ScatteredLogical as an example) say I create a web show about how breakfast cereal sucks, and ScatteredLogical and I got into a forum scrap about whether breakfast cereal sucks or not. ScatteredLogical would say how the toon is stupid and I would defend it. Forum members would join in, for or against. The argument could get as nasty as the one Jim and I just had. Couldn’t that encourage others to go and see the show… if only to see what the fuss is about? And then they’d tell their friends, and those friends would tell their friends… Then I could honestly take those hits and say to a network, “Hey, my show is popular. Look at all these hits,” and use those to help sell my show.

Here’s a real life example: The Adult Swim show Boondocks aired an episode where Martin Luther King Jr. came back from a coma. MLK gave everybody a dose of the “horrible truth” (and he used the n-word) and provoked a revolution. Civil rights guy Al Sharpton attacked the show, calling for Cartoon Network to never air the episode again and a public apology. It was all over the news. Couldn’t that motivate some people who have NEVER seen that show to tune in… just to see what the fuss was about? Whether they were offended or not… THEY WATCHED IT. That episode was the highest rated show Adult Swim ever had or something like that.

Here’s ANOTHER real life example: South Park recently aired an episode where Cartman and Bart Simpson talked about how they hated Family Guy. The show made a good point about free speech… but it did involve George W, the American flag, Jesus and pooping, That was on the news too. That episode was attacked by Catholic groups, calling Matt and Trey “money grabbers”. But… how many people tuned in to see that episode for all the hype? Whether they were offended or not… THEY WATCHED IT.

So… as cold and manipulative as it sounds… in the business of animation, is bad publicity bad? Isn't getting attention to our work or projects the ultimate goal?

As you think about that, here’s a quote from Guy Kawasaki, one of the guys responsible for the Macintosh computer and now a successful venture capitalist:

“Your goal is to catalyze passion – pro or anti. Don’t be offended if people take issue with what you’ve done; the only result that should offend (and scare) you is lack of interest.”

Sound off.

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I can immediately think of two animators that have some sort of negative background that are HIGHLY respected in the community and are not only getting work... but have won awards for their work.

Are either of those two you? No? Then their experience is not relevant to your situation. Until you are "highly respected in the community," you're just a pain to work with, if that's the image you cultivate.

I can think of some others that have a reputation of creating bad work, but are also working.

Guys creating bad work but who are easy to work with will get a job faster than someone who does brilliant stuff but is a pain in the @ss. You can art-direct bad work into good work. You can't stop someone from being a jerk or a prima dona.

It seems to me you're less interested in hearing thoughts about your initial question than you are in looking for support for your position. So I'm done. You've got my opinion; use it as you see fit.

These things have gone up in other cities too. So far, only Bostonians freaked out over it. Given the way they drive there, I'm not surprised they're a bit tense...

Bad Publicity

No publicity is bad. Even if it is really bad it brings attention to the product , person , show or company.

We're a sensitive lot, but at the same time, I think we're human enough to say to ourselves "oh, that's just how he is" and turn the other cheek.

Yes, but that's not how it works in a production environment. If you're difficult to work with, don't take direction well, cost the studio money because other people have to do your work. Your phone won't be ringing off the hook with job offers.

The Notorious Catoonchaos. :P

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

I worked with a fellow once who could draw rings around me. He was working FOR me, in fact--back when I owned a studio, and he was frustrating.
He had some discipline issues then, stemming from his personal life and it was like walking on eggshells around him.
One day I became so frustrated with him I fired him and his heinie out the door.
My partners were away at the time and came back somewhat aghast at what I'd done. They actually tried to rescind my decision ( which planted ther seeds for something else--long story, for another time) but in the end, my call stuck.
The fellow went on to another studio and some more misadventures there, and......well, he's got a rep.
I've seen him since, and he's mellowed out some and I understand that he busts his ass now--which is good for him. For a while there though, his rep preceded him and it was tough going.

The thing is, he was/is still able to get work.

He's not a ego-monster by any stretch--and I've enountered a couple of those too--but his habits back then were costing him.

My own experience is that its okay to have a personal behavioural "style" as long as it doesn't grate with other people or affect the production. Its probably better to be chummy and personable then being the absolute "grey man". Being flamboyant is a very fine line to walk because it makes you a crap-magnet from all sides.

IMO, you go further with a positive rep than with a negative one.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

The assertion:

For example, (using ScatteredLogical as an example) say I create a web show about how breakfast cereal sucks, and ScatteredLogical and I got into a forum scrap about whether breakfast cereal sucks or not. ScatteredLogical would say how the toon is stupid and I would defend it.

The actual, unedited posts accessed by search dating from a little over 3 months ago:

Dreamworks is paying the actors for their name association. Its kinda like when you buy cereal at the grocery store. Are you gonna pay three bucks for the Lucky Charms with the cartoon character on the box, or are you gonna pay one dollar for the clear plastic bag with the exact same cereal. Most folks choose the leprechaun.

As a connoisseur of cereals, let me say that it should be noted A) boxes are way easier to store in a pantry than "sack of dog food" size containers and B) with the exception of a few "brand name generic" brands like Malt-O-Meal (which can be verified to be identical to General Mills, and even produced and shipped from the same region of the same state), generic must almost always be avoided. Anyone who's eaten Cocoa Dots knows they're about as close to Cocoa Puffs as sasparilla is to garbage water. When the ingredients are different, and the consistency is different, and the taste is different, pay the extra 70 cents to a dollar and enjoy a better quality of life.

Touche, my friend, touche.
Bad analogy, but an analogy none the less. I'll think of a better one next time. :D

Actually it was a great analogy, just founded on a common misconception.
I apologize for the thread hijack.

Are either of those two you? No? Then their experience is not relevant to your situation. Until you are "highly respected in the community," you're just a pain to work with, if that's the image you cultivate.

Sigh... I suppose I need to DESCRIBE them, as Ken did with his example, but I'm not using names or gender tags. That's rude.

One is a famous animator and director. This person has a rep with some animators because this person has not PAID people correctly in the past. In my opinion, that's a big no-no. This person has admitted, in my presence, that said person has made mistakes. There are some artists that don't like to be around that person. However, this person is HIGHLY respected and honored by the industry (I respect that person greatly) and is continuing to create work.

The other is another animator and has been a director as well. This person is rude. This person has been rude to me, has been rude to others, has been rude to many professional people that WILL agree and HAVE agreed with me. I personally cannot see how this person can work in a team at all. This person has a sharp tongue and a negative tone that just... rubs you the wrong way at times. However, those lack of people skills have not stopped that person from animating some BEAUTIFUL work on some high profile animated feature films, and directing two of them. I have literally watched a professional director shrug his shoulders and say "eh, that's just how that person is".

I guess its a give and take then. If you're a pain in the butt, I guess it's worth dealing with you if you create quality work. Heh, I WISH one of them were me!

I'll go back to what I said earlier, and add to it. I think we're all human. We are not perfect. We all make mistakes. I think (and hope for your own sakes) that we're all human enough to realize that. Regardless of the animation industry, I think we need grace and forgiveness in our own hearts for our own lives. The good Lord knows I do! I think we all do on a certain level, which allows us to shrug our shoulders and turn the other cheek... to a point. ;)

It seems to me you're less interested in hearing thoughts about your initial question than you are in looking for support for your position. So I'm done. You've got my opinion; use it as you see fit.

My initial question was if bad publicity was a bad thing. You're trying to argue whether a bad reputation affects your ability to find work. While similar, these are two different arguments. I agree with you, but I have seen a variance in what you are saying. I'm voicing that variance to keep what YOU are arguing in perspective.

I'm not looking for support of my position. If you glance at my blog, you'll see that I don't totally agree with my own argument here. I'm looking for your opinion of my initial question... and that's all. :)

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My initial question was if bad publicity was a bad thing. You're trying to argue whether a bad reputation affects your ability to find work.

No, I'm not. Go back and look at my first post. What I did was create a scenario, based on your question about publicity, where I could demonstrate how "bad publicity" could in fact be bad for you. You missed the point I was making and latched onto the context I made it in. In fact, the conversation didn't take a swing into "people who are a pain to work with but are in fact working" until you responded to my initial post.

True, we've gotten a little off-track from your original question, but my first post was theoretical; you took it into the practical.

No, I'm not. Go back and look at my first post. What I did was create a scenario, based on your question about publicity, where I could demonstrate how "bad publicity" could in fact be bad for you. You missed the point I was making and latched onto the context I made it in. In fact, the conversation didn't take a swing into "people who are a pain to work with but are in fact working" until you responded to my initial post.

True, we've gotten a little off-track from your original question, but my first post was theoretical; you took it into the practical.

Touche.

BUT... I HAVE seen practical versions of that theoretical scenario you created. I think its a bit of give and take with that.

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Of course - everyone has. But that's not the point.

To expand on some things.

A bad rep, or bad publicity surrounding yourself is detrimental PROFESSIONALLY, but probably not publicly, if you are high profile.
Animation is a elite field, far moreso than other occupations and if you add the mystique about the craft it compunds things.
If you take folks like John Kriscfalusi, Ralph Bashki, Tim Burton, Frank Thomas, Ollie Johnson, Bruce Timm, Brad Bird et al......they all have their reps, and they either are already or are becoming known to the public.
Some of their reps are sterling, some have roughspots, some make the news because they have popes clinging tenaciously to buttocks etc.
For the public, they are all watchable regardless of what they do.
For professionals, well.............some of those folks are the kind you'd work with and some are one's you'd avoid--depending on your own POV.

There are people I will not work with, and there's people that will not work with me. That kind of thing just happens in this industry--its elite, therefore its relativiely tight-knit, remember?

I can recall another fellow, one of my students. He pulled a "prank" on the job that didn't get caught until it was literally "too late"--and the studio was forced to make the change, costing them some coin.
This fellow was let go pretty quickly because it wasn't just the prank that was intolerable, it was the pattern of behaviour before the prank.
This guy was a footage king, he was one of those talents that was cranking out decent work and was making some serious coin too. And he was straight out of school too.
Poof--just like that, his time was over. I'm not sure where he ended up after that, but I imagine the lesson was painful enough that he didn't do it again.

It doesn't take much to make someone a pariah ( or a folk-hero) in this biz.
So, professionally speaking, bad publicity can be a career-killer if you are not very careful.
A good rep, though not sexy, get's you so much further

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

...Some of their reps are sterling, some have roughspots, some make the news because they have popes clining tenaciously to buttocks etc...

...both of them? :eek:

...sorry. :o

Oh, I don't know anything about all this?, but common sense just makes me think this thread's a bit silly. :) If you just want attention, well then I guess bad publicity is good!, but if you want to get things done...

Now, let's assume that the unique eyeballs belonged to someone in a position of power who was thinking of using you on a high-profile project. Was using "napalm" to get that one hit a good strategy? We can assume from your description of the post as "very negative" that if this were the case, you just lost an opportunity, not only on this project, but on future projects as well.

Despite the wealth of work going on, animation is a very small community, and it doesn't take long for your reputation to catch up with you. Only you can decide how you wish to draw attention to yourself, but I'd recommend considering ALL the ramifications of how you draw that attention.

There's a potent thought herein.

I use my own name here, not a handle like I have( and do) on other sites.
Other posters use handles, but they have links to their own sites where info can be found on them, to ID exactly who they are.
I've used some "napalm" myself a few times, been caught up in the firestorms that can erupt in these kind of forums.

It can haunt me.

But, I don't give a shit.
People that know me personally would probably laugh out loud reading some of the tone I write with, and those that read only my writing would probably be quite surprised meeting me in person.
I've met "notorious" types in this biz and they were complete polar opposites in person to what they are in press.
Part of what's on these forums is a PERSONA, at least in terms of presentation. For myself, part of it IS genuine, I DO have strong opinions on stuff.
When I teach in class I behave a certain way, when I'm on the job its something different, at home it is something even more different.

Now, occasionally, I get people sending me messages saying that they don't like some of what I write.
Fooey. It depends on what I have written-- if its harmful to them, I'll apologize and recant or retract as need be. If its something I feel really needs to be said, I'll stick to my guns--regardless of how much someone complains.
Hey, I might never work with some of the people I tangle with, or I might find out tomorrow that I HAVE worked with some of them.
Its entirely concievable I might get to ( or have to) work with them in the future.
Stranger things have happened.

Its not smart going about the business of making enemies, so I don't.
I'll piss someone off, but that's a different thing.
As a poster, most of us are here to SAY something. I think an equal measure of frankness and courtesy/consideration is healthy to have.
That extends to professional life too.
If I'm working on shit, it is shit. There's no point glossing it over to make someone else happy. Of course, one keeps their trap shut around the client, no point cold-cocking the one that feeds you, right?

As much as this field is a creative craft, its also a business. Results do matter, but the means to the results can also matter to some people as well. I use a particular tact that's worked well for me all my career, I've paid a price for using it, but its served me at the right times too.
To really make it, one has to find that appropriate tact for themselves and navigate their own way.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Nicely said...

Bad versus Good reputations

In this business, where the tendency is to switch studios...and go where the work is, a bad reputation can really cut into your employability. This is a pretty small world, and tends to be a collaborative one as well. I'd say someone who is burdened with a bad reputation (however talented, unless he/she owns the company) is doing themselves a great disservice. Some companies, if you are let go during your training period (for work habits, personality, ego, etc.) won't let you re-apply for three years.

It's a tough thing because ego seems to so often be a driving force of strong art/ but it is often that very same ego that gets people into trouble.

But with so many talented people around, most managers say that they would rather work with someone who is personally a pleasure to be around, even if they're slightly less talented. And if you're starting out, coming from an animation school such as Cal Arts or Ringling you're likely to be around your classmates (one way or another) for the first ten years of your career...or longer. Better to fix the personality issues up front.

Very nicely said.

Now , one more time.... Wax on! Wax off!

bad publicity is a bad thing depending on how bad the thing is and what it is that you do.

i wouldnt want to be a pharma company being sued for poisoning, an accountant for embezzeling so on and so forth. the resulting publicity is guranteed to make me poor and ruin my mind.

but in the entertainment world if you can make like your notorious you are golden.

It can haunt me.

But, I don't give a shit.
People that know me personally would probably laugh out loud reading some of the tone I write with, and those that read only my writing would probably be quite surprised meeting me in person.

I've met "notorious" types in this biz and they were complete polar opposites in person to what they are in press.

Part of what's on these forums is a PERSONA, at least in terms of presentation. For myself, part of it IS genuine, I DO have strong opinions on stuff.
When I teach in class I behave a certain way, when I'm on the job its something different, at home it is something even more different.

Now, occasionally, I get people sending me messages saying that they don't like some of what I write.

Fooey. It depends on what I have written-- if its harmful to them, I'll apologize and recant or retract as need be. If its something I feel really needs to be said, I'll stick to my guns--regardless of how much someone complains.

Hey, I might never work with some of the people I tangle with, or I might find out tomorrow that I HAVE worked with some of them.
Its entirely concievable I might get to ( or have to) work with them in the future.
Stranger things have happened.

Its not smart going about the business of making enemies, so I don't.
I'll piss someone off, but that's a different thing.

As a poster, most of us are here to SAY something. I think an equal measure of frankness and courtesy/consideration is healthy to have.
That extends to professional life too.

If I'm working on shit, it is shit. There's no point glossing it over to make someone else happy.

Of course, one keeps their trap shut around the client, no point cold-cocking the one that feeds you, right?

Wow.

Thank you for saying that.

Oh, I don't know anything about all this?, but common sense just makes me think this thread's a bit silly. :) If you just want attention, well then I guess bad publicity is good!, but if you want to get things done...

You're right. This thread is silly from a "common sense" point of view. A lot of the threads I start are silly from that point of view. But every once in a while when I do, someone (like Ken just now) writes something that makes so much sense... it was worth it to me, and maybe to someone else, that this thread was started.

I highlighted the lines that really meant something to me, whether I totally agreed with it or I humbly learned from it.

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ScatteredLogical would say how the toon is stupid

Yah, 'cause that sounds like me. Always shooting from the hip and calling names...

Mind posting a link to this thread if you're going to use it three times without my knowledge to make me look bad in furthering your own causes?

Let's assume for a second that the anonymous poster who left a negative message was just some random individual. You drove a set of unique eyeballs to your site - well done, even though you'll probably never get that particular set of eyeballs again.

Now, let's assume that the unique eyeballs belonged to someone in a position of power who was thinking of using you on a high-profile project. Was using "napalm" to get that one hit a good strategy? We can assume from your description of the post as "very negative" that if this were the case, you just lost an opportunity, not only on this project, but on future projects as well.

Despite the wealth of work going on, animation is a very small community, and it doesn't take long for your reputation to catch up with you. Only you can decide how you wish to draw attention to yourself, but I'd recommend considering ALL the ramifications of how you draw that attention.

Sadly, if it get's something NOTICED, its not "bad" publicity.

Attention IS the goal, ultimately.

Vince McMahon and his WWE, and the many commericals that use a "dumb" sell (amongst other examples) obviously have had quite a bit of success with their bad publicity.

Heck, you can do all the right things, have a sterling rep and outstanding product and SOMEONE somewhere will come along and try to take you down a peg.

My thinking is to use it all to your best advantage.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

.

.

Here we go again...

Yet another example of bad publicity...

Anybody live in Boston? Adult Swim caused a frenzy there today. I don't think this one is going to be over for a while...

Aqua Teens Shut Down Beantown

What do you think?

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Yet another example of bad publicity...

Anybody live in Boston? Adult Swim caused a frenzy there today. I don't think this one is going to be over for a while...

Aqua Teens Shut Down Beantown

What do you think?

Mae West Quote
"When I'm good I'm very, very good, but when I'm bad, I'm better."

I have seen that advertisment here but the finger was covered up. I am thinking that the photo is not real.

in the business of animation, is bad publicity bad? Isn't getting attention to our work or projects the ultimate goal?

It has the word "bad" in it, so, yes, it's bad.
Otherwise it would be called "good publicity" or just plain ol' "publicity."

Bad publicity is when something bad happens due to public reaction. If more people visit a site because of a "negative" or critical blog, or if more people watch a show or movie because of a stunt, then the publicity isn't technically "bad."

HAhaa

HAhaa...what a question...but it's really interesting...Nowdays,what is bad or good seems to be on how the person interpret it... We live in a world of open-mindedness, where people just don't like the 'good' but also wants to knw what is 'bad'...Like computer games, "GTA San Andreas" was briliant, yet considered 'bad' by many... but in the end, its still very famous and played by millions...

In the end, what is 'good' or 'bad', Its only for you 'think' an others to 'think' more...

Oh yea, the tittle should be the other way around too, " Does bad things give bad publicity", right?

Imagination is much more important then knowledge...

Liberace once said he "cried all the way to the bank", after receiving a bad review of one of his concerts. And later on he referred to the first statement by saying "remember that bank I cried all the way to, well I bought it". So I'd say from his view point there was no such thing as bad publicity.

Or how about how famous William Hung got from his performance on American Idol. I don't think he had a problem with bad publicity either.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Despite the wealth of work going on, animation is a very small community, and it doesn't take long for your reputation to catch up with you. Only you can decide how you wish to draw attention to yourself, but I'd recommend considering ALL the ramifications of how you draw that attention.

I don't know about that. That "reputation" stuff is kinda funny.

I can immediately think of two animators that have some sort of negative background that are HIGHLY respected in the community and are not only getting work... but have won awards for their work. I can think of some others that have a reputation of creating bad work, but are also working.

I agree with you that animation is a small community. I would even go so far as to say it's a small "family". BUT... in any small family or workplace there are always the few individuals with those types of personalities that are sometimes difficult to work with or be around. We're a sensitive lot, but at the same time, I think we're human enough to say to ourselves "oh, that's just how he is" and turn the other cheek.

I think you have a better chance of getting HIRED if lots of folks can testify that you can positively work well in a team and can deliver gold by deadline. The good vibes theory gets a little gray when you start talking about personality and drama. It goes black when you're promoting something, depending on what it is.

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Yet another example of bad publicity...

Anybody live in Boston? Adult Swim caused a frenzy there today. I don't think this one is going to be over for a while...

Aqua Teens Shut Down Beantown

What do you think?

It's bad press for Homeland Security as far as I can see it demonstrates how a couple of boobs can place devices in different places for weeks before being outed through the internet.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Mind posting a link to this thread if you're going to use it three times without my knowledge to make me look bad in furthering your own causes?

Touche, my friend. I'm sorry. I was just using you for sake of argument. But hey, there's no such thing as bad publicity! :D

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