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The First Volley Of Many Questions

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The First Volley Of Many Questions

Greetings All!

I have been checking this forum out for awhile now trying to glean the pertinant information I need, and even though I have learned a lot I think its time I consult directly with the guru's.

I have a concept based on an the legendary feats of a historical character.
I am not an artist nor am I a writer, but I do feel that I have ability to either pitch this concept successfully or maybe even facillitate the creation of it myself.

My first question is about the pitch bible: I understand the concept of it, what i need to know is; do I have to have a complete screenplay written or is it enough just to have the plot outlined? Also, can someone direct me to an example of one (pitch bible) so that I can see the proper way to put it together

My second question is about character designs: I plan on hiring a freelance artist to do the designs, how much can i expect to pay per design?

Third: If I am unsuccessful pitching this project I will probably attempt to secure funding for it myself, In that case it will most likely be a flash feature. I read in a posting on here that a 26 min flash movie runs around 14k. That seems pretty cheap, is this the going rate? And also does anyone know of a action animation done in Flash that was high quality?

My thanx in advance to any who reply

Peace.

Greetings All!

I have been checking this forum out for awhile now trying to glean the pertinant information I need, and even though I have learned a lot I think its time I consult directly with the guru's.

I have a concept based on an the legendary feats of a historical character.
I am not an artist nor am I a writer, but I do feel that I have ability to either pitch this concept successfully or maybe even facillitate the creation of it myself.

My first question is about the pitch bible: I understand the concept of it, what i need to know is; do I have to have a complete screenplay written or is it enough just to have the plot outlined? Also, can someone direct me to an example of one (pitch bible) so that I can see the proper way to put it together

My second question is about character designs: I plan on hiring a freelance artist to do the designs, how much can i expect to pay per design?

Third: If I am unsuccessful pitching this project I will probably attempt to secure funding for it myself, In that case it will most likely be a flash feature. I read in a posting on here that a 26 min flash movie runs around 14k. That seems pretty cheap, is this the going rate? And also does anyone know of a action animation done in Flash that was high quality?

My thanx in advance to any who reply

Peace.

Tarhaka

1) you dont need a complete screenplay mostly the concept/outline/world on paper. there are a bunch of threads around here for pitch bible. just do a search. if you still have questions post em.

2) Character designs can be quite expensive depending on who you hire, how complex you design them and how many options you seek. you could expect between $100 - $1000 (its quite open ended)

3) The 22 min for $14,000 you are talking about is prolly from one of my posts. while this is true you need to understand that this is possible only if you get a complete storyboard, stage layout and tricked out poses with disected characters with atleast 12 angles as well as attitudes, hands etc.

Thanx for your prompt reply skinnylizard, I had a feeling you would be the one that tries to help me fill in the blanks.

I understood everything you said except for your answer to the 3rd question. Perhaps you could elaborate?

Specifically: Are saying I would have to provide the stroyboard, and stage layout to the animators? As for the rest I am not an animator so it kinda went over my head. If you have the time and the motivation I would appreciate a short class on the concepts you layed out, or a reference where I can learn them on my own.

Also do you know of any good action animation done in flash?

Many thanx

Peace.

That $14,000 quote might be JUST for animation alone, and at about a bottom rate as well.
Its not counting pre-production-storyboards, designs, layouts( or set-ups for FLASH), dialogue etc, nor post production,--sound, editing etc. And then you might have to pay for equipment to produce this on, and a place to house it all for people to work in.
For example, you could have 20 characters to design--meaning principal and secondary characters, and have to pay out $200 per. That's $4000 right there, and we are not talking about props or locations yet either, just characters.

You may as well quadruple that $14,000 amount, easily.

The thing about these rate, and them being low is that you will get what you pay for. A lot of people want animation done on the cheap, but they fail to realize a few things.
The assumption most of the time is that this kind of quote is for the simplest take on a project: one , maybe two characters, very simple backgorunds and simple situations.
The more complex the situations/theme, emotions and actions taking place on screen are, the more thinking is involved and the more prone it is to mistakes. The lower the rate is, the shorter the time essentially needs to be, because the more complex things are, the longer it will take.
No-one will want to spend a lot of time on something only to make very little money.
There's also an issue of skill and talent. The lower the rate, the less likely one is to get people that know what they are doing, the less experienced the crew, the more problems they will encounter and the worse the final product will look. If someone pays for the talent, the usual outcome is that they are paying for experienced problem-solvers. People that have dealt with and addressed what appeals to the audience, and can apply that skill/intuition to your product.

Now, some people don't care about that--its just a product to them and a means to whatever end. Unfortunately the consuming public tends to disregard stuff that is less polished, so a weak product just doesn't serve its owner very well.

Which goes back to the money spent on it.....

And the irony of it all is that even spending hundreds of millions of dollars is not even a guarantee of "good" product, it just tends to make "nice" looking product.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Many Thanx Ken,

Wow...ok....so even for a Flash movie I would need nearly A quarter of a mill?

Geezus

I guess the only real avenue is to pitch the concept successfully.

Are there no quality Flash action movies?

Thanx again for your help.

Peace.

http://www.saywordradio.com

Many Thanx Ken,
Wow...ok....so even for a Flash movie I would need nearly A quarter of a mill?
Geezus
I guess the only real avenue is to pitch the concept successfully.
Are there no quality Flash action movies?
Thanx again for your help.
Peace.
http://www.saywordradio.com

To do a full 90 minute feature, even in Flash you will need over several million dollars just for production (design, layout, backgrounds, storyboard,animation, etc.) You also have to spend money for voice actors, recording studio, sound effects, and foley, post production editing and film transfer. It's not just as simple as animating something and burning it to a DVD. Or you can do it on the cheap and do everything yourself.

There have only been a handfull of feature films animated in Flash, and most of them are comedies that have evolved out of internet shorts from the 1999's and 2000.

If you want good action animation done with Flash, check out the Esurance ads done by Ghostbot in San Francisco. They run on TV in the USA or you can check them out on either the Esurance and Ghostbot websites.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

For 22 mins, you could probably do it for under $60K, I'd guess--maybe $75K.
For a 90 min feature, done in FLASH--which I don't think anyone has pulled off successfully yet--you could look at $250K.

As for an action genre..........no, FLASH, imo, is not suited very well for a action cartoon. FLASH has practical limitations in what it can pull off in animation, though it depends on the style you want. In something of a limited animation style, it can manage fairly well, but action cartoons are notoriously difficult to pull off in a limited style.

One of the problems with FLASH is that it looks cheap, imo. This is because of its tendency to look like moving paper cut-outs--which is essentially what it is, albeit in a virtual sense. As a consumer, that doesn't appeal to me as much as the more lush full animation that you get with straight 3D or fullly animation 2D like in a Pixar or Disney film--and I gather its the same with a lot of consumers.
Now, that said, I have seen well-done FLASH animation: Atomic Betty is a good example of a strong style combined with smart usage of FLASH. But would that look hold up to a feature film. I don't know......

One bit of advice here: reasearch.
Research the hell of the biz and craft before you go a-pitchin'.
There's a reason why not a lot of people actually get cartoons made based on their ideas, though forums like this see a lot of hopefuls. You've just butted up against one of the key reasons; its a LOT more expensive and complicated than one might expect.
Having a idea is nothing, as there's millions of them out there. Lord knows, I've got enough of them in my own head.
Far too many people just jump right in and assume its a straightforward process, but in reality, its anything but. Alas, if it were, we'd see a lot more and a lot more different cartoons being made.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Thanx everyone for the info.

It seems that the only way to see my vision realized is to pitch it successfully.

Even though...250,000 seems a lot more realistic for me to come up with than a few million.

I checked out the ghostbot stuff and it was awesome, reminded me of the Samurai Jack animation style, which would be perfect for what I have in mind.

Well...like I said before thank you all, hopefully the next time I post it will be to hire someone to help me make my dreams reality.

Peace.

http://www.saywordradio.com

Ape & Ken were spot on with their information. ideally you need a lot of preproduction done quite well to save money on Flash.

ill disagree with Ken that you cant do an action flick on Flash ( i think you can if you have it pre-produced well)

but i just want to explain to you that Flash is away of cutting down your costs (its cheaper to buy, it can simulate 2d for a lot less, real time etc etc) so overall if you do use Flash and use it wisely you could def bring your costs down.

i would say a 22 min pilot if produced tightly and well planned could be done for $45k. but you would have to go overseas for that for sure.

but i just want to explain to you that Flash is away of cutting down your costs (its cheaper to buy, it can simulate 2d for a lot less, real time etc etc) so overall if you do use Flash and use it wisely you could def bring your costs down.

I want to add to that.
Flash can cut costs for certain styles of animation. Flash works well for graphic styles of animation, like most of the cartoons on Cartoon Network and Nick (Foster's, Power Puff Girls, Samurai Jack, Fairly Odd Parents, etc.) What it won't cut costs on is traditional Disney style animation like Snow White, Little Mermaid, and so on. I'm not saying it can't be done, but for that style you'd probably be better off doing it traditionally.

the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

I want to add to that.
Flash can cut costs for certain styles of animation. Flash works well for graphic styles of animation, like most of the cartoons on Cartoon Network and Nick (Foster's, Power Puff Girls, Samurai Jack, Fairly Odd Parents, etc.) What it won't cut costs on is traditional Disney style animation like Snow White, Little Mermaid, and so on. I'm not saying it can't be done, but for that style you'd probably be better off doing it traditionally.

the Ape

umm... Ape, dont you think with the right kind of pre-production you could get away with a lower quality animator to do the actual work on the computer. if they have proper tricked out poses and have good supervisors it could be done.

my pOv simply being that it could allow someone to do a snow white cheaper and quicker than the traditional way.

?

umm... Ape, dont you think with the right kind of pre-production you could get away with a lower quality animator to do the actual work on the computer. if they have proper tricked out poses and have good supervisors it could be done.

I'm actually going to say, no. I've actually seen first hand how badly weak animators can quickly turn great clear keys into rubbish. I've worked on shows with good pre-production and shows with bad pre-production, and good pre-production helps a TON, but you also need good animators to bring the character to life. Thats just my oppinion, but then again, I'm an animator. So I might be a tad bit biased. :D

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

I'm actually going to say, no. I've actually seen first hand how badly weak animators can quickly turn great clear keys into rubbish. I've worked on shows with good pre-production and shows with bad pre-production, and good pre-production helps a TON, but you also need good animators to bring the character to life. Thats just my oppinion, but then again, I'm an animator. So I might be a tad bit biased. :D

Aloha,
the Ape

ape, i find it hard to find fault in what you just said. i just done seem convinced for some reason right now but im prolly wrong.

ape, i find it hard to find fault in what you just said. i just done seem convinced for some reason right now but im prolly wrong.

No worries Lizard I agree though. If your animators are not very experienced, haveing strong character layouts already done is much better then letting them do it themselves. But obviously, the better artists you have, the better the art will be.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

maybe what i am trying to say is strong stage layouts and less experienced flash animators is better than strong pre-prod and less experienced traditional guys

..

maybe what i am trying to say is strong stage layouts and less experienced flash animators is better than strong pre-prod and less experienced traditional guys

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

Was the star wars animated series that aired on cartoon network done in flash?

And Samurai Jack was that Flash?

www.saywordradio.com
www.myspace.com/saywordradio

Was the star wars animated series that aired on cartoon network done in flash?
And Samurai Jack was that Flash?
www.saywordradio.com
www.myspace.com/saywordradio

No and no. They could've and should've been.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

2 cents

In reply to that, the studio I work for has recently been doing some (symbol) animations for Disney. The tests we did initially in Flash were just outright rejected and we really needed to buckle down and pull Flash to higher heights.
We ended up doing really well in the end, with a lot of tweaking of traditional tricks as well as FLash tricks.

But Flash definitely has its ceiling. Disney liked our stuff alot (we're pretty small) so now they want something more. We worked on Pooh, and that can be fudged to a certain level, because they're stuffed animals.
But now they want more of their female characters, dancing and moving around. So we're currently trying to find a medium between actual traditional animation and this mongoloid we call 'symbol' animation. I'm curious what will come of that.

So yeah, Flash is quickly stretched to its absolute limits when you try to do something more robust programs would pull off easier......except then you lose a lot of the reasons why you initially went with Flash.

Personally, I live and die by Flash (100%) so I cannot say anything too terribly bad about it, besides what is known by anyone who spends more than 5 minutes messing with it: it was never meant for what it is being used for.

my firm belief is that if you get your pre-prod right, and your posing correct then you will not only save time (correspondingly money) you will also have to spend less time correcting your errors.

Though i I will admit its bloody complex and painful to do pre-prod for Flash anyhow.

i do swear by the medium. it has pretty much allowed me to work on more things then i would have been able to as a traditional house.

This might be asking too much but for the Disney stuff you did? was the pre-prod coming from you as well?

This might be asking too much but for the Disney stuff you did? was the pre-prod coming from you as well?

Hey Skinny....Nope, we don't do any (or are not supposed to) of the pre-prod stuff. We have a TD in LA that does all that stuff for us. All the rigging, all the setups and animatics are done by them. We "only" breathe life into the whole mess ;) Sometimes the production is so rushed we end up adding to the libraries ourselves for hand/mouth/props they didn't add, or even change/add to the animatics. But that's unusual.

For my own studio, I do do everything myself but I do have animators/illustrators on hand who I can give overflow work to.

Hey Skinny....Nope, we don't do any (or are not supposed to) of the pre-prod stuff. We have a TD in LA that does all that stuff for us. All the rigging, all the setups and animatics are done by them. We "only" breathe life into the whole mess ;) Sometimes the production is so rushed we end up adding to the libraries ourselves for hand/mouth/props they didn't add, or even change/add to the animatics. But that's unusual.

For my own studio, I do do everything myself but I do have animators/illustrators on hand who I can give overflow work to.

very interesting this. id like to ask, how much value addition do you bring to the action panned out to you on the submitted storyboard?

both of my last two projects i have had to deal with situations where we signed to work only on the ANIMATION and ended up adding to libraries and doing posing etc. which wasnt priced in. not happy bout it, but like you said, its so rushed that you just have to do it.