Search form

Good and Bad Acting in Animation

27 posts / 0 new
Last post
Good and Bad Acting in Animation

In animation history, there are very few examples of great acting through animators, and I suspect that this might be part of the reason why the public generally refuses to take animation seriously.

Most animation seems to suffer from either too much acting or too little. Much of what animation fans will identify as good acting is the same kind of self-conscious overacting you'll find in Laurel & Hardy or Three Stooges sketches.

The performance of a character often relies heavily on the voice actor. Frequently the mute characters - the ones that rely more on pantomime - give the subtler acting performances (Dumbo, Gromit, etc.), possibly because the animator isn't constrained by the voice actor, or possibly because the animator is more responsible for the character's realization.

What are some examples of really great animation acting?
Please identify specific scenes or performances rather than entire movies. For example, many of you might cite Iron Giant in general, but I'd cite the seemingly spontaneous gestures of the giant when he first thinks Hogarth is dead (only a 6 second sequence).
(If it helps you to distinguish animation acting from voice acting, you might want to turn the sound down and see if the performance still holds up.)

Who are the greatest actor/animators?

Most importantly, [B]
[SIZE=5]how does one become a great animation actor?[/B][/SIZE]

Here's a little more background:
http://www.animationarena.com/acting-and-animation.html
quote:
"An animator is an actor with a pencil", goes the oldest and truest animation cliché. Not "a draftsman that acts", but first and foremost - an actor. If you're trying to tell a story through a character, inevitably you're an actor. The only question is whether you are a good actor or a bad one.

Gollum was the first to spring to mind. I think he works with or without sound but ROCKS with Andy Serkis.

Dumbo is a huge favorite and the tender moments are sublime.

I'm going to put The Little Mermaid way up, too, I particularly liked Ursula. Yeah she gets BIG acting wise but she's always on the money. Funny, too. Great face, amazing body work - boobs, bum and tentacles! I think the rest of the cast works well, too.

Toy Story, I thought was very good, especially with the subtle moments. Lots of good stuff when they get to Sid's house. They had to be quiet, it was very tense, fear, when Buzz is drunk at the tea party. Good stuff.

Not too much lately.

*spoilers ahead for the DuckTales animated series*

There's an episode of DuckTales called Much Ado About Scrooge where they go to an island to retrieve a long-lost manuscript. It's an island, though, and they wash up on shore, in separate chunks. If I remember correctly, Louie is all alone at first, and then the salesman that has been antagonizing them for the whole first part of the episode approaches out of the waves, the expression and backpedaling is so wordlessly priceless that it actually says a pageful and is a standout moment of the series to me. If you watch every minute up to it, the context is perfect and you totally identify with his nervous and akward yet abrasive feel about the guy.

Syndrome's line when Mr. Incredible is captured, something along the lines of "That sounds a little dark for you..."

One Man Band didn't have the traditional feel of story I have been used to but I remember that some of the acting choices felt so dead on (and were carried out well in technical competence) that it motivated me to review my own (generally broader) choices.

A lot of the Scar material in The Lion King where his acting is more layered...like where he has to be deceptive "Stampede -- in the gorge...SIMBA's down there!" might be too punchy if he was genuinely concerned but since we know it's a total line of bullshit it (and Irons' voice acting is there) it feels great. It's also fascinating to watch how subdued he can be when he knows the attention isn't on him as the scenario he created plays out.

I was interested to find out in a lecture that Ed stifling his own laughter in that same movie was the animator's decision and not directing. I think it works very intuitively and effectively as a use for the silence in the track.

Syndrome's line when Mr. Incredible is captured, something along the lines of "That sounds a little dark for you..."

Just caught the end of "The Incredibles" on cable. There are some great moments with Syndrome. For example, the sequence where the Parrs return home after defeating the robot, to find that Syndrome is kidnapping Jack Jack. Syndrome's "monologing" in the house has some brilliant moments (head movements, pose attitudes).

That Syndrome performance is the type of Batman-villian theatricality I was talking about: that kind of self-conscious hamminess that animation fans usually identify as good acting. Granted, it's done very well, and it's very entertaining. It is very convincing dinner-theater bombast, but real people do not behave like that.

Even when considered in context, though? This is a villain who makes self-referential comments about his monologuing practices. Through that filter (ie in the world where people are comic-book like) it makes sense. I don't think that Brando would've been appropriate even though in an absolute scale he ranks higher than a Jason Lee-inspired performance.

Is that hamminess the most natural, classically-trained acting ever? No, but no PERSON is like Syndrome so real-person attributes would be square pegs.

To be honest, one of the reasons I like that particular line I mentioned is because it has a life and credibility to it that other decisions made regarding him didn't in that movie. It broke past the "ham" and the first time I saw it the only life it had was a creepy one (In the intended-as-ominous sense, not uncanny-valley style :p ).

Maybe it'd be helpful to provide a few examples of the style you're after. Then we can identify where we've seen similar choices.

That Syndrome performance is the type of Batman-villian theatricality I was talking about: that kind of self-conscious hamminess that animation fans usually identify as good acting. Granted, it's done very well, and it's very entertaining. It is very convincing dinner-theater bombast, but real people do not behave like that.

I disagree (surprise, huh:D) There is a level of subletly and personality in those momemts that goes beyond the generic overblown villian gestures They don't last long, but they're there. Ironically, it's the "real people" aspect of those moments that caught my attention, although I do agree that in the main, Syndrome is a pretty hammy character.

We also may not even be talking about the same moments. As you yourself pointed out, some excellent acting moments only last seconds before returning to "haminess". I could be talking about a real moment bracketed by overacting - you can't tell based on me identifying the scene in general. Unfortunately, I don't remember the specific dialog during the moment I'm thinking of, and don't have the time at the moment to search the DVD to find it. When I do, I will, and we can discuss specifics.

In general, people are not very animated, and when they are, it stand out as false: people making grand gestures with their hands for example.

Lots of things in film are amplified because of the medium. You have to be able to see the subtleties from the back row of a theater.

When a group of people get together in real life, they also don't stand in a line, all facing in one direction. They stand in a group or in small groups. But in theater, they're not really talking to each other, they're talking to YOU and so they point to YOU. On TV, the camera is "you" instead of "you," so they talk to IT.

It's all larger than life, because life is boring.

I practically worship Chuck Jones, so I have to answer with him. Daffy's frustration in "Duck Amuck" or the bull getting an idea in "Bully for Bugs" or Marc Antony's grief at the "death" of Pussyfoot in "Feed the Kitty."

To me, some of the best discussion on this topic I've seen is scattered throughout The Illusion of Life (which I assume you have read). Bambi and the other Disney classics all have great examples of acting through animation - particularly Bambi which had only about 1000 lines of animation. It never hurts to review those films.

I agree that mid-20th-century Disney features probably represent the golden age of believable animation performances; but compare those to any good live-action performance or to real-life behavior, and you'll quickly realize how artificial they feel.

Then, somewhere around the 1980s, the trend turned away from more subtle behavior and toward phony mannerisms and ostentatious gestures. Today, nearly every animated character is a clown or a histrionic actor: what in serious live-action would be instantly identifiable as bad acting.

Your picks of greatest animation performances help to clarify the problem of just how low the standard for animation acting is.
Animation is traditionally kiddie fare and comedy, and kiddie fare and comedy only require - and often demand - mediocre or over-the-top acting.
That's not to say that those performances aren't successful and entertaining, but there's a big difference between an entertaining performance (e.g., Cesar Romero as the Joker) and a character with emotional depth and a believable personality.

I think you want to be careful about comparing animation performances to live action - I do not think they are the same or can be compared. This is why rotoscoped films don't work. They don't quite look right. You used the right word though "believeable". The goal is to have a believeable character that presents a well acted scene. Even though it may be a drawing very lifelike (Bambi) it is still a characterization to a point, it's not totally real. But it is believeable enough, and then on top of that, the performances were top notch.

I agree with you though, so much acting in animation today is clownlike and over the top. It loses its effectiveness because it is done too much. Theres a place for that, but not the whole character.

I do think Pixar has some very talented animators, and I think the Incredibles and Monsters Inc., are full of excellent performances.

Sure Syndrome does some over the top stuff - but that is who he was, that was in character for him. Anyway that is my take on it.

Cheers

Tom

Your picks of greatest animation performances help to clarify the problem of just how low the standard for animation acting is.
Animation is traditionally kiddie fare and comedy, and kiddie fare and comedy only require - and often demand - mediocre or over-the-top acting.

Just because the same moves are typically found in the performances of inexperienced actors in the real world only means that a lot of animation is full of bad real-world acting. There are enough animators out there practicing and taking lessons in acting that you'd think, the man/woman behind the mask would effect things enough so that all that experience showed on screen. Do you actually see broad stagey work as "low" and/or "mediocre" or just not good at being something they're not? I think it's time for the Definitions portion of the Harvey Conversation, because I can't tell if you don't like sweeping gestural stuff or just hammy, out of place, cliche choices.

... I can't tell if you don't like sweeping gestural stuff or just hammy, out of place, cliche choices.

I've tried to make it clear that I enjoy the histrionic and clownish stuff. I think everyone here probably does. I just recognize that those aren't believable performances, and that animation is capable of much more sophisticated stuff; possibly through better directors, more well-trained animators, and the addition of motion-captured/rotoscoped/video-sourced performances (e.g., Gollum / Scanner Darkly / Cinderella, respectively); that is, the input of people who know what good acting is.

I actually wasn't talking about your personal preference but about what your specific focus was in what we're discussing.

Credibility is one of the top acting issues, but can you at least see where some of us are coming from...where credibility might be -suspended- in some circumstances -because- of deviations from the "clownish?"

...believable performances...

This is the key to this whole discussion, Fairly Odd Parents is not trying to make a believable performances but some of titles are trying to put some more into their cast's acting.

.

.

John Pomeroy once wrote in Disney Magazine that to succeed as an animator it's less important to be an exceptional draftsman and more important to be an exceptional actor. This is the real sweet deal about the job: real-life actors are limited in the choice of their roles because of a variety of factors; gender, age, physical appearance, voice, etc., animators are not.
In my experience, many of the principles that are valid for live-action acting apply to animation. I got acting lessons in school and they were a GREAT help! People tell me that I gesticulate a lot when talking and that's true. My advice is, get into your characters not just emotionally; try to consciously "feel" what it is like to inhabit a body, where its limits lie and how outside forces affect it.

Just caught the end of "The Incredibles" on cable. There are some great moments with Syndrome. For example, the sequence where the Parrs return home after defeating the robot, to find that Syndrome is kidnapping Jack Jack. Syndrome's "monologing" in the house has some brilliant moments (head movements, pose attitudes).

Well I hope my comment is not off topic but I have some question about the acting thing. When first learning to animate, would it be fair to say that the bouncing ball and other exercises have nothing to do with acting.

Later in the process, acting is show through animation like a character walking to someplace. In more advance work, the animation is the acting.

A somewhat resent movie like "The Incredibles" there is one scene where Syndrome is yelling at Mr Incredible. Syndrome's whole body was in motion and that motion transmitted the same meaning as the words Syndrome used.

Is my assessment of animation and acting right? Is this what these post are saying about this subject? So Harvey Human comment is more about the level of animation is be keeped in the simple and intermediate stages, with infrequent use of advance animation work.

Just caught the end of "The Incredibles" on cable. There are some great moments with Syndrome. For example, the sequence where the Parrs return home after defeating the robot, to find that Syndrome is kidnapping Jack Jack. Syndrome's "monologing" in the house has some brilliant moments (head movements, pose attitudes).

Shsss, the babys sleeping.
You took away my furture, I am simple returning the favor.
Oh, don't worry I will be a good mentor, supportive, encouraging, everything you weren't. And in time who knows, he might make a good side kick.

That whole scene was almost all head shot. For me the best scene is the one that starts at 40:40 now this is acting. I think it is great that this scene with Mirage was done by a guy. :D

So Harvey, what do you think

...are some examples of really great animation acting?
Please identify specific scenes or performances rather than entire movies.

You've already mentioned the Iron Giant shot. Are there any others?

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

So Harvey, what do you thinkYou've already mentioned the Iron Giant shot. Are there any others?

I don't have most of these movies in front of me, but the best stuff I can think of is when the animator relies heavily on the influence of human performance, through video reference, rotoscoping, or motion capture.

Unfortunately, the live actors used in these methods are usually not the best, but you begin to get a sense that there's a thinking, breathing character in there.[LIST]
[*]some of the Smeagol stuff in LOTR
[*]some of the Disney princesses and stepmothers of the mid-20th century
[*]some of the performances in Scanner Darkly
[*]some of the female performances in Monster House: mom, babysitter, candy girl[/LIST]Then there's the stuff which I don't think is so dependent on live-action reference.[LIST]
[*]Dumbo
[*]Baloo in Jungle Book
[*]possibly Alice from AinW (my memory's foggy on that one)
[*]Rabbit from Disney's Winnie the Pooh (?)
[*]Bernard from the Rescuers movies (?)
[*]the babysitter in The Incredibles
[*]some of Helen in The Incredibles
[*]Princess Bala in Antz
[*]Mei (the youngest girl) from Totoro
[*]Chinhiro from Spirited Away[/LIST]None of these are perfect performances. Some of these characters only have a few memorable seconds or minutes of greatness throughout their entire movie. And some might not be as good as I remember them to be. :D

I'm not entirely sure, -but- I think I see what you're seeing when you mention Bernard and Rabbit. Reeled in, controlled....can be and sometimes is larger but, just like day-to-day waking life people, only when you bring it out of us.

Here are some of my favorites in no particular order:

Disney's Little Mermaid. The scene were Ariel is now human and she is at the diner table with the prince and butler. She is trying to show that she fits in and is using different objects the wrong way. Using the fork as a comb, then pauses, and quickly puts it down. Then thinking a smoking pipe is a musical instrument. You can feel her embarrassment at doing the wrong thing when all she wants to do is fit in to this world and impress the prince. Then it ends with my favorite part, where Sebastian the crab is on the butlers plate and Ariel is looking how to hide him so she lifts the cover off of her plate, hides him under it and quickly covers it feigns interest and a smile to the butler. Some great acting by Glen Keane.

Disney’s Beauty and the Beast. When Beast is trying to ask Belle to dinner while she is locked in her room. First he asks in his typical roaring fashion then Lumiere and Cogsworth chastise him making him ask her politely. On his second attempt, he tries to clam himself, not very well I might add, and through gritted teeth he asks her “it would give me great pleasure… if you would join me for dinner.” When she rejects his offer a final time he screams and yells and storms off. It’s great that he’s not just saying the words, but you can see it as he goes through the motions of bowing, and trying to smile that this is so against everything he’s ever done. And from this one sequence alone you can tell that he’s never had to ASK any one to do anything for him before, let alone have someone tell him “no.” Another well acted scene from Glen.

Several scenes from The Incredibles.
1) After Helen is called to Dash’s principle’s office and they are in the car. Helen is sort of reprimanding Dash about using his powers, but not being too harsh. A great part of this whole scene is that Helen is driving whole time, so she is more watching the road then she is Dash, so all her actions are leaning towards Dash in the passenger seat, but she is looking forward at the road. The back and forth between Dash and Helen is great. Dash is trying to convince her to let him go out for sports and that he promises he’ll only by a tiny bit, but she tells him they can’t. One of the best parts of that whole sequence is when Dash says, “Dad said our powers are nothing to be ashamed of… That our powers make us special.” And Helen’s reply is, “every one is special Dash.” But you can see it in her face that not even she buys that line. Very nice back and forth between the two of them. Dashes facial expressions are so great. It was amazing how much flexibility they could get out of his face.
2) The argument between Helen and Bob after Bob comes home late is great. Again, nothing fancy or flashy, just good acting about normal everyday thing people can relate to. It’s a great married couple fight. It starts with one thing; Bob saving people, then escalates when he mentions he knocked down a building. Then prior arguments get thrown in, about Bob not wanting to go to Dash’s fourth grade graduation. Then that escalates when Bob mentions that Helen won’t let Dash go out for sport. The whole thing ends by going back to the underlying subtext of the whole scene, and whole movie really, about Bob not being able to use these special gifts that he’s been blessed with. It definitely has the feel of that star High school quarter back that had a great future then got his girlfriend pregnant and has to give up foot ball to raise a family.
3) And one of my favorite sequences in the whole movie, when Helen is flying the plane and the missiles are closing in. It’s a whole combination of voice and animation acting, cutting and score that make this whole sequence amazing. The best acting in this whole sequence is in Helens facial acting. At the start when she first sees the missiles she is worried and scared, then she kicks into hero mode, puts on the headphones and is all business. She snaps right into hero mode like it was yesterday. Her face and actions are confident. As the sequence progresses and there are more and more missiles fired at her that she can’t avoid, you can see it in her face. You can see in her face the exact point when she realizes that her children might die. It’s right at 1:09:33 on the DVD. Her face changes, her eyes go wide. Her eyebrows rise up and pinch together at the top, and her mouth and cheeks also drop down opening up her face. Then she actually says, “…there are children on board…” You never see her face when she says those words. It cuts back to Mirage in the control room, but her expression and the animation on her is so good that it carries with out seeing her face. In the following shots where she is yelling, “Abort! Abort! Abort!” You can see the desperation and fear for her children’s lives in her eyes as the camera cuts closer and closer into her eyes. You can also see a very subtle head shake she does when she knows it’s too late and the missiles are going to hit. Another great aspect of this whole sequence is her persona. At the end when she’s telling at Violet to put a force field around the plane, Helen is scared and worried when she is facing forward. When she turns around to Violet, there is no fear or worry in her face. Instead she looks and yells angrily at Violet trying to get her to create a force field because she is scared of her mom and not of the situation. When she turns forward again she is scared again. Really, really stunning character acting by John Kahrs.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

Here are some of my favorites in no particular order:

Disney’s Beauty and the Beast. When Beast is trying to ask Belle to dinner while she is locked in her room. First he asks in his typical roaring fashion then Lumiere and Cogsworth chastise him making him ask her politely. On his second attempt, he tries to clam himself, not very well I might add, and through gritted teeth he asks her “it would give me great pleasure… if you would join me for dinner.” When she rejects his offer a final time he screams and yells and storms off. It’s great that he’s not just saying the words, but you can see it as he goes through the motions of bowing, and trying to smile that this is so against everything he’s ever done. And from this one sequence alone you can tell that he’s never had to ASK any one to do anything for him before, let alone have someone tell him “no.”

What I liked a LOT about that scene was how the beast snappily turned to Lumière and Ms. Potts, pointing accusingly at the door after asking nicely, which wasn't just funny but also showed that like a disappointed child he wanted emotional support after stooping so low as to actually beg and still getting rebuffed.

What I liked a LOT about that scene was how the beast snappily turned to Lumière and Ms. Potts, pointing accusingly at the door after asking nicely, which wasn't just funny but also showed that like a disappointed child he wanted emotional support after stooping so low as to actually beg and still getting rebuffed.

Yeah, I forgot about that part Jabber. I love when he points to the door as if to say, 'see, it's her fault, she's the stubborn one!' Then with his half lidded eyes looking upward says, please come to dinner. Such a great range of emotions that Glen was able to get out of the Beast character.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

the face that launched a thousand rocket ships

Several scenes from The Incredibles.
... Hellen ... Hellen ... Hellen ... Hellen ... Hellen's ... Hellen ... Hellen ... Hellen ... Hellens ... Hellen ... [SIC]

The animator usually follows the lead of the voice actor, and Holly Hunter is the best voice actor in that movie.

Bret Parker, the voice of Kari the babysitter, was previously an animator on Monsters, Inc., Toy Story 2, and Bug's Life.
I'd love to hear more about that story.
Did her knowledge of animation allow her to accentuate her voice performance in a way that better served the needs of the animators? :confused:


Bret Parker [left], Pixar animator and voice actor, here with date at Bug's Life wrap party.

#2 and #3 are two of my favorite scenes as well. I was going to mention #2 and I forgot in my post. I love when he rambles on about the "graduation" ceremony, when he puts his fingers to his head - the gesturing is perfect, and when Helen turns him around with the cake in his mouth and you can see the "oh brother let it alone" in his whole body.

I've probably watched the movie 15 times, but the suspense in the airplane scene with Helen and the kids gets me at the edge of my seat every time - especially with the beeping and her frantic faces right before the missles hit.

Hate to ogle over that movie so much, but it's still one of my favorite movies ever for a lot of reasons, one that I think it is so well done.

And yeah it doesn't hurt having Holly Hunter as your voice :)