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Why not share your work?

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Why not share your work?

Why not? Most of us here are graphic artists and we understand visuals more than anything else. I've signed some non-disclosure clauses in my career, but that doesn't mean I don't have other work I can't share here.

I think if you want to participate you participate fully. I hate taking critiques from people I don't know or know their background. If you want to critize my work post some of your own. That's where I stand. It's easy to critize if your work never is. Are you strickly a critic then tell us that, I think we deserve to know.

phacker's picture
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Why not? Most of us here are graphic artists and we understand visuals more than anything else. I've signed some non-disclosure clauses in my career, but that doesn't mean I don't have other work I can't share here.

I think if you want to participate you participate fully. I hate taking critiques from people I don't know or know their background. If you want to critize my work post some of your own. That's where I stand. It's easy to critize if your work never is. Are you strickly a critic then tell us that, I think we deserve to know.

Hi Pat,

You've already gone off topic in your own thread!

What has the title "Why not share your work?" got to do with knowing someone's background?

Can you start another one called "Why not share your background?"

By the way, I can't participate fully. I don't have anything to show you.

-Paul

Fair enough. Don't want to share, then don't post criticisms of others work. I don't care if someone is a voice artist or whatever, but before they can critique my work, I'd like to see some of theirs. Call me strange, but I think it's only fair.

How can I value your opinion if I haven't seen your work?

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Fair enough. Don't want to share, then don't post criticisms of others work. I don't care if someone is a voice artist or whatever, but before they can critique my work, I'd like to see some of theirs. Call me strange, but I think it's only fair.

I agree!

I will never say anything about your work again.

-Paul

Fair enough. Don't want to share, then don't post criticisms of others work. I don't care if someone is a voice artist or whatever, but before they can critique my work, I'd like to see some of theirs. Call me strange, but I think it's only fair.

one thing I learned very quickly when I started working in the film industry is that most of the people who see your work are not feature film animators. That means that my work has to read and connect emotionally with people who do not have the same training as my peers and those I surround myself with on a day to day basis.

Does that mean that I discount their critiques? No, it means I seek them out. Because if it doesn't read to THEM, if it doesn't make sense to people who do NOT have the same experiences I do, then I failed and I have to change my art so it works.

Thus, getting critiques from people who DON'T have the same artistic background I have is a better way of knowing whether or not my work is going to be sucessful when it's out in the real world.

Now, does that mean that I have to take the advice if someone who doesn't have animation training says "It's moving too fast"?

No, it means I can listen to what they say and try and interpret what they mean. And if enough people say it, then by golly I should make that change.

And I should thank the people who made the critiques, regardless of their background, because they're giving their time to improve MY work.

one thing I learned very quickly when I started working in the film industry is that most of the people who see your work are not feature film animators.

Yes, but Phacker has higher standards than that. Whenever one of Phacker's clients asks for a design change, Phacker insists on seeing the client's clip art portfolio first. If Phacker is suitably impressed with the client's work, she'll make the changes. If not, or if the client is unable to produce a portfolio, Phacker kicks his ass out the barn door into a field where lap dogs devour his spleen. (true story) That's just the way she is. To Phacker, personal integrity is more important than a paycheck.

I don't want to speak for Phacker, but I think most of this is stemming from a member that was posting here, and mis-representing himself as an animation producer at Warner Bros. From as far back as I can remember, Phacker's always wanted to see member's work, but since the poser, he's become more insistant about it.

I'm kind of the same way. I like knowing where this phantom critique comes from, but I'll take anyone's critique. Will I change what they suggest? Hmmmmm maybe, but they are allowed their opinion. If someone catches something totally wrong with my work, it doesn't really matter if they're a gym teacher or Glen Keene. It's wrong it's wrong.

As for the professionals here, I know it's hard. I know some studios disscourage their artists from posting on forums because it's just so damn hard to not want to disprove mis-information on the web about projects they are working on. Then it just becomes word vomit, and the studio now has an information leak they have to deal with.

All I ask is to play nice, and try to use alittle tact when critiquing your fellow artists. Don't just say it looks like crap. That doesn't help anyone.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

I don't think Phacker is a bad person, but she seems to have an authoritarian-submissive personality. This means that if a figure demonstrates authority - in this case, in the form of a resume and portfolio - she will count his opinion as valid. If the figure fails to produce those credentials, that same opinion is invalid.

This is a form of argumentum ad verecundiam, or "appeal to authority," one in the family of fallacious arguments which includes ad hominem ("You're wrong because I don't like you."), ad ignorantiam ("You can't prove me wrong, therefore I'm right."), and ad populum ("I'm right because more people agree with me.").

Ad verecundiam is also the basis for the success of celebrity endorsements; e.g., "If Michael Jordan is selling those shoes, then they must be really good shoes."

http://www.cuyamaca.edu/bruce.thompson/Fallacies/invincible_authority.asp
http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/authority.html

Hey guys, huge hello to Mr. Schleifer, I didn't know you visited awn! Anyway, I dont know if people are actually going to post there work here or not. I have no problem with it, so please feel free to go to www.jocelyncofer.com to check out my work! :D

"Animation isn't about how well you draw, but how much to believe." -Glen Keane

I suppose that this thread is related to our discussion on the 'drawing in animation' issue?

I can certainly see where Pat is coming from, as I too like to know where a crit is coming from, just for the sake of context. That said, experience has taught me that if anyone critiques my work, then it's wise to take a step back and look at why that person has said what they have said. It may not be the exact reason explained to me, but the person is reacting to something, and that should be investigated.

(Holy crap, this is good advice! I need to listen to myself more often.)

I think if you want to participate you participate fully. I hate taking critiques from people I don't know or know their background. If you want to critize my work post some of your own. That's where I stand. It's easy to critize if your work never is. Are you strickly a critic then tell us that, I think we deserve to know.

I had to shut off the anonymous comments option because an anonymous troll didn't know how to do that. I even announced that with a blogpost here. Basically this troll kept telling me I couldn't draw and that I should stop doing so. I asked what artwork he/she/it could produce in order to show me what was wrong with mine and the little (:eek: ) just got abusive and started posting crap everywhere.

So yes I definitely agree. Show your own artistic abilities before you critique others. If you have non than just say "I'm no artist, but this part here kind of doesn't feel right........." or soemthing to that effect.

Order my book Jesus Needs Help on Amazon or download on Kindle.

You can also read the first 18 pages of my next book for free at this link: The Hap Hap Happy Happenstance of Fanny Punongtiti

I had to shut off the anonymous comments option because an anonymous troll didn't know how to do that. I even announced that with a blogpost here. Basically this troll kept telling me I couldn't draw and that I should stop doing so. I asked what artwork he/she/it could produce in order to show me what was wrong with mine and the little (:eek: ) just got abusive and started posting crap everywhere.

I think there's a difference here between a good critique and a troll commenting just to cause flames.

What you guys are really upset about is people challenging your artistic ability w/out proving that they can do better.

Instead of getting so worked up and demanding proof.. you should realize a few things..

1) You have no control over anyone else, just yourself.
2) Not everyone reads these threads before posting.
3) Not everyone HAS examples available to demonstrate their technical skill (a painter may not have a way to scan in their work.. but they can still be a good painter).
4) Some people are really crappy about giving critiques and they don't know how to give them correctly.

So.. given that.. the only thing you DO have control over is your own response to somebody's posts.

and given THAT.. if someone posts a comment saying "you draw like my drunk unkle frank's vomit", then just ignore it, and let it wash off your back.

don't take on the negative energy, and you'll feel much better.

btw, I posted a much longer post about critiques on my blog..

http://jonhandhisdog.com/

Taken to an extreme, the notion that one must show one's work before commenting on someone else's gets kind of silly:

* I'm an illustrator and animator. Does that mean I can't critique painting or sculpture, since I don't engage in those artforms? I've never made a live-action movie - does that mean I can't offer an opinion on why the new Pirates of the Carribbean movie stinks?

* If I'm limited to critiqueing art forms that I engage in, am I further constrained to only commenting on those pieces exhibiting a skill level at or below that which I've achieved? Would I not be allowed to critique a piece that exhibits a skill level above my own? And who decides what are comparable skill levels?

Like I said, it gets kinda silly...

Dang - Harvey beat me to my first thought... :D

I asked what artwork he/she/it could produce in order to show me what was wrong with mine ...
Show your own artistic abilities before you critique others. If you have non than just say "I'm no artist, but this part here kind of doesn't feel right........."

One doesn't need to be an artist in order to know whether he likes an "artwork" or not.
And you don't need to be a chef to know whether you like a meal or not.
Can you imagine an architect saying,"I asked what building he could produce in order to show me what was wrong with mine"? How much respect would you have for an architect who said something like that?

If a professional critic panned a movie, and then the director said, "Well, let's see YOU direct a movie. Unless you make a movie, you can't criticize me. Nyah nyah," you would think that director was a idiot, and you'd be absolutely correct.

So get a grip, people. You don't have to accept every criticism from everybody, but leave the whining out of it. ACT YOUR AGES! lol:D

If a professional critic panned a movie, and then the director said, "Well, let's see YOU direct a movie. Unless you make a movie, you can't criticize me. Nyah nyah," you would think that director was a idiot, and you'd be absolutely correct.
...
So get a grip, people. You don't have to accept every criticism from everybody, but leave the whining out of it. ACT YOUR AGES! lol:D

QUOTE:
A war of words then erupted between Gallo and popular critic Roger Ebert, with Ebert writing that The Brown Bunny was the worst film in the history of Cannes, and Gallo retorting by calling Ebert a "fat pig with the physique of a slave trader." Ebert then responded, paraphrasing a statement once made by Winston Churchill that "one day I will be thin, but Vincent Gallo will always be the director of The Brown Bunny." Gallo then claimed to have put a hex on Ebert's colon, cursing the critic with cancer. Roger Ebert then replied that enduring his colonoscopy would be more entertaining than watching The Brown Bunny.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_bunny

If I'm limited to critiqueing art forms that I engage in, am I further constrained to only commenting on those pieces exhibiting a skill level at or below that which I've achieved?

In a roundabout way, I think people like Phacker and Haredevil are simply saying that they don't want any negative criticism of their own work, or any criticism of other people's work that they disagree with.
We all know that when Phacker receives positive criticism of her work, she doesn't then demand to see the critic's credentials. No, anyone is allowed to say things that Phacker agrees with, but, if you disagree with her, you'd better be prepared to produce your portfolio.

I'm all over the place on this one. while I think you should "know your critics" I don't think a critic needs to prove themselves worthy.

However, for anyone going into any of the arts, you MUST develop a thick skin. It's the nature of the business - at least on the graphic arts side of things.

"You wanna be a true friend to them? Be honest, and unmerciful." - Lester Bangs, Almost Famous.

You really do need to accept criticism, recognize good criticism from bad, and lastly, you do need to "put it out there". You should show your work, not to prove yourself, but to know what it's like to be on the receiving end. Everyone should worry "is it good enough? do they like it? will they laugh". I think folks who received harsh criticism tend to be a little more tactful (unless they've really been abused). I've found everyone in the Show and Tell area and the Sketch area, where folks ARE showing their work, to be very nice and helpful. The teachers here are especially good at being honest and encouraging at the same time. Isn't that all what we want?

As for trolls, "criticism" looks at the work, trolls pick on the person. "You suck" is very different to "the hand gesture sucks" or "your proportion sucks". Asking for a portfolio AFTER criticism is kind of the same thing, you're looking at the person not the comments.

edited to add, yes, I agree, none of this seemed to have come from anyone's criticism of any work.

Hey Harvey, just thought I'd let you know that Phacker is a guy, not a girl. No need to use "she" anymore.

Just a little FYI.
:)

Flash Character Packs, Video Tutorials and more: www.CartoonSolutions.com

Hey Harvey, just thought I'd let you know that Phacker is a guy, not a girl. No need to use "she" anymore.

Just a little FYI.
:)

How do you know that, Hickey?
In the past, we have asked Phacker her gender, so we don't have to refer to her as "he/she" and "him/her," but she has always refused to reveal it.

Huh, it's kind of funny that someone, who demands that everyone reveal their location, resume, and portfolio, has a problem revealing her own gender. Oh well, c'est la vie, and so forth.

It depends on the nature of the criticism. A simple "I don't like this" is pretty hard to argue with. If it attempts to take the form of a factual statement that's just incorrect, it might reflect more on the critic than on the work. As long as you don't get personal, I've come to feel that defending your work is at least as important as the work itself. You have to be standing on solid ground and not get an anurism every time someone says something negative about your work.

If an architect designs a building that's pyramid-shaped, and some annonymous person says it's structurally unsound and will collapse at any minute if it were actually built, the architect has a perfect right to enquire about the person's credentials. If the architect just takes it as gosphel and only designs box-shaped buildings from that day on, then they have a problem that has nothing to do with architecture, but will affect their career in a very negative way.

Acting as nervous as a wet cat and changing your style and technique every time anyone criticizes something you've done is a weakness that can very easilly be exploited. And, as has been stated above, one must always be on the lookout for alterior motives.

nobody's saying you should take every critique and apply it.. what we're saying is that you should LISTEN, and then use YOUR ability to determine whether or not it's worth implimenting.

If someone says "your pyramid is going to fall over", you have every right to say back "actually, pyramids are quite structurally sound.." especially if you know that to be the case.

However, if someone says "this work makes me sad" instead of saying "well who are you to say anything", try and understand where that person is coming from and what is giving them that impression.

How do you know that, Hickey?
In the past, we have asked Phacker her gender, so we don't have to refer to her as "he/she" and "him/her," but she has always refused to reveal it.

Huh, it's kind of funny that someone, who demands that everyone reveal their location, resume, and portfolio, has a problem revealing her own gender. Oh well, c'est la vie, and so forth.

I know because over the years there have been threads about posting pics of yourself and Phacker has posted his pic there.

Flash Character Packs, Video Tutorials and more: www.CartoonSolutions.com

I know because over the years there have been threads about posting pics of yourself and Phacker has posted his pic there.

Well, I am looking at that picture and it is impossible to tell whether that is a man or a woman.

Out of respect to Phacker, I'm not going to insert the image.

One of the interesting things I've experienced at AnimationMentor is the nature of critiques.

When I was in the first term there covering the foundation of basic principles, I'd look at the class ahead of me doing elaborate body mechanics exercises and I know when something felt wrong but unless it was something 100% visual I don't know the concepts or lingo so I didn't feel in the right for describing it.

Now that I've gone through both those terms and the acting terms, I see new "me"s feeling the same way and I realize two things 1) When my work tends to have a glaring issue it's because of some basic problem that I'm overthinking. They are in the thick of the basics that I can tend to forget sometimes so if anything they are the BEST people to get eyes from, and 2) The less experienced someone is in animating, the closer they get to being the viewpoint of the audience member who might one day see what I produce.

True critiquing works well with perspective.

Utter Disbelieve....

Wait a minute......phacker is a LADY!!!!..........{gamecon90 has just fainted of utter disbelieve and could not continue this message......oh yeah,life is great......}.

Imagination is much more important then knowledge...

Why should gender matter? If we all share work and and help each other. Right now my old computer is having fits. Rather or not a person is one gender or another shouln't really matter unless you have issues. The work should stand for it's self.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

What gender are you Harvey, have yet to see your work yet? Is female work less than yours? My gender isn't a matter for consideration, only matter of critique by those that choose to share.

That old graphic you show only demonstrates that you have no idea with whom you are dealing I post my work and have never been afraid to share. Why are you? I've been attempting to learn animation and Larry and Tony have taught me a lot. I don't think you've taught me anything, but to beware of people that want to prosper off someone else. You seem to want to work for Pixel...good luck. I am sure they will welcome you with open arms.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

I think "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" just went to a whole new level.

;)

I had to shut off the anonymous comments option because an anonymous troll didn't know how to do that. I even announced that with a blogpost here. Basically this troll kept telling me I couldn't draw and that I should stop doing so. I asked what artwork he/she/it could produce in order to show me what was wrong with mine and the little (:eek: ) just got abusive and started posting crap everywhere.

So yes I definitely agree. Show your own artistic abilities before you critique others. If you have non than just say "I'm no artist, but this part here kind of doesn't feel right........." or soemthing to that effect.

Hi Haredevil,

I think there's a difference between commenting on someone's work and just having an opinion on a topic. For some reasons anyone who joined a discussion here would be put into a group labelled "someone who wants to critique my work." by Phacker and be told to show links to their own work. That is different from the incident you experienced.

-Paul

For some reasons anyone who joined a discussion here would be put into a group labelled "someone who wants to critique my work." by Phacker and be told to show links to their own work.

... good point. Has anyone here been critiquing Phacker's work?
I guess if you have an opinion that's contrary to Phacker's you're technically critiquing her work.
Or maybe if you don't tell people your location and show you're portfolio, then you're critiquing Phacker's work.
I don't know ...
Anybody ... ?