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Walt Disney: Scumbag?

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I guess everything's going to be a personal attack now, eh? :rolleyes:

So now the fault is mine for being rightly outraged by a disgusting and shameful personal attack? :mad:

So I guess now you can make any filthy personal attack and if someone takes offense, well, you have your ready-made dishonest defense ...

DSB: You're outraged that I equated you with Satan? Oh, hahahahaha! Why do you take everything so seriously, you big silly? Didn't you know I wasn't being literal? What? You say you can't read my mind to find the sentence that says "I'm not being literal"? Oh, hahahahaha! What a lark!

You know full well, DSB, that if someone told you that you were behaving exactly like McCarthy or Stalin or Hitler, that you would throw a fit up and down the forum.

What's wrong Harv; getting frustrated because no one's rising to take your bait?

I'm not sure what you classify as "taking the bait," but, my dear DSB, you have - after all - made NINE posts to this thread within the last day. LOL :rolleyes:

Get back to the topic or leave, DSB.
ENOUGH WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACKS!!!

Get back to the topic or leave, DSB.

Fine. I'm going to take one last pass at this, and then I'm done.

Harvey's assertion is that the purpose of the thread was "to discuss and learn". I provided my point of view, along with the observation that some factual inaccuracies existed in a web page he cites for support of his position. In a later post, I responded to his question about why that was relevant.

I am under no obligation to discuss this (or any) topic to anyone's satisfaction beyond my own. If I choose not to "refute" anything anyone says, that's my choice. I do find it telling that I've been taken to task for that, while those who feel I should be more forthcoming continue to ignore questions posed to them by others.

Sure, I've posted several times to this thread in the last day, including goofy stuff like "mmmm...gum", which should have been obvious to anyone as an attempt to lighten the mood.

Jabber, you're absolutely right; these bickering matches are tedious and tiring, to me as well. Frankly, that's part of the reason I tried to sum up my thoughts in my first post. I sensed that this thread might become snarky and didn't want to get caught up in it - unfortunately, I was less than completely successful. I'll tell you now, though, that you're going to see much less of it in the future. In my real life I find it's easier to just not spend time with people I don't get along with; I'm going to start doing that in my online life as well.

Fine. I'm going to take one last pass at this, and then I'm done.

Don't bail, DSB. It is comical how this thread turned into a semantics debate, but it doesn't mean the thread amounted to a debate on semantics (remember the "What is animation" thread?).

Can you imagine a Craig McCracken or a John K doing the shit Walt Disney did today? You don't buy Nike shoes because they're make in sweat shops so why do we buy Oscar & Company and Chip'n'Dale Rescue Rangers DVDs when they the product of a company equally grounded in scum?

Is that to much taboo for this forum?

If people want to discuss the topic rather than discuss each other, I have no problem with them staying. I understand that this is a very emotional subject for some people.

You don't buy Nike shoes because they're make in sweat shops so why do we buy Oscar & Company and Chip'n'Dale Rescue Rangers DVDs when they the product of a company equally grounded in scum?

And finally the discussion creeps forward.

Are you seriously suggesting that we shouldn't watch Disney movies because Walt may have been a bad guy? Should we also boycott all the shows from Disney-owned ABC, Pixar, Miramax, and Touchstone? I'd have to throw out my copies of Nightmare before Christmas and the Toy Story box set. :(
I'd have to promise myself to never see Mel Gibson's Apocalypto.

Can you imagine a Craig McCracken or a John K doing the shit Walt Disney did today?

Ask SpikeTV what they think of John K these days. Herr Kricsfalusi has been a pretty naughty boy with their money and got his wrist slapped.
He did it to Nickelodean before as well.

The man can draw like a sonuvagun but he's a very lousy businessman.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Anyway, prior to all the meltdowns, Sajdera made an interesting point:
(How is it that 23-year-old Saj is the most composed and mature contributor to this discussion???)

Can you imagine a Craig McCracken or a John K doing the shit Walt Disney did today? You don't buy Nike shoes because they're make in sweat shops so why do we buy Oscar & Company and Chip'n'Dale Rescue Rangers DVDs when they the product of a company equally grounded in scum?

In response to Ken Davis, I haven't heard anything about such an activity by John K nor brought up any in a quick Altavista search, but assuming it's true, how does that compare to associating with (actual) Nazis? I can't remember the time when John K. explained to the court that Penn Jilette was an Islamic terrorist spy.

And for everyone here that's taken this "oh, why, WHY, why did you bring this up, Harvey!?", please stop whining. If you don't want to be a part of the discussion, read and post elsewhere on the forum. If you think Harvey concocted this thread as a means of "creating waves", you guys sure surfed 'em like Endless Summer. 'Takes two to tango.

So, as it stands, Disney is still a scumbag. That hasn't been refuted. So, does he deserve to be regarded as a patron saint of animation, or a ruthless entertainment baron?

Actually, let's get back to "Herr Kricfalusi" for a moment. He posted a rather illuminating blog post recently that pondered just how it was that Disney even managed to stay in business in the 30's. His cartoons were far from the cutting edge. The Fleischer stuio was turning out some of the most kick-ass cartoons ever made, even to this day, like Swing, You Sinners and Mysterious Mose. Disney's cartoons are, comparatively, boring-as-hell, so how is it that he's the house-hold name that Fleischer isn't?

Coupled with the fact that he was a quasi-fascist, his legacy is surprisingly positive if you ask me.

In response to Ken Davis, I haven't heard anything about such an activity by John K nor brought up any in a quick Altavista search, but assuming it's true, how does that compare to associating with (actual) Nazis? I can't remember the time when John K. explained to the court that Penn Jilette was an Islamic terrorist spy.

And for everyone here that's taken this "oh, why, WHY, why did you bring this up, Harvey!?", please stop whining. If you don't want to be a part of the discussion, read and post elsewhere on the forum. If you think Harvey concocted this thread as a means of "creating waves", you guys sure surfed 'em like Endless Summer. 'Takes two to tango.

So, as it stands, Disney is still a scumbag. That hasn't been refuted. So, does he deserve to be regarded as a patron saint of animation, or a ruthless entertainment baron?

John K blew the entire budget for the Spike TV Ren and Stimpy series on the FIRST TWO episodes, then dissappeared for about two weeks while Spumco and Carbunkle waited for approvals (from John). Spike was ready to offer cost-overruns but needed John's signature.
John was found in LA, iirc, "blowing off steam"--while the folks working on his show were waiting to get paid.
The remaining episodes got made under strict controls and oversight.
This wouldn't be on any search engine on-line--it was relayed to me by a colleague that actually worked on the series--inside dope and all.

( and if you consider the Nickleodean debacle--pitching a episode(s) to the network and then BREACHING the contract made with them by going back to the studio and changing the very episode(s) he got "approval" on. Once the network signs-off on the ep it becomes, for all intents and purposes, a legal agreemment to deliver the show they've now committed money to. But if those kinds of agreements didn't seem to mean all that much to John, one has to start wondering....)

No, it not a heinious thing, but waiting to get paid while the producer/studio head goes off "to clear his head" and blows the budget on two episodes out of 13.......well, its not fun.

It just illustrates that guys like Disney or John K have flaws.......and you can either acknowledge those flaws and look at their works in two seperate lights or you can choose to let their lesser deeds overshadow their greater deeds.

Which is what I've said about 4 or 5 times already in this thread......

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

It just illustrates that guys like Disney or John K have flaws.......and you can either acknowledge those flaws and look at their works in two seperate lights or you can choose to let their lesser deeds overshadow their greater deeds.

Which is what I've said about 4 or 5 times already in this thread......

Well, they aren't the only animation leaders that have flaws...

I think that all this fighting is actually revealing a truth about the animation industry.

We animators are a sensitive bunch. We're artists. We're storytellers. We're not Wall Street. When you put someone as sensitive as us in a position where a big company hangs on their decisions... not pretty.

I have great respect for Walt Disney. You know what he was? He wasn't an artist. He was a salesman. He sold the world what it wanted to buy... when he was nowhere close to being it himself behind closed doors. I don't think he was "the great animator". (That's John Lassiter.) Walt Disney saw a great business opportunity and knew how to make it work. And yeah, he was a scumbag.

Hey guys... come on. I'm a scrapper too, and I think you're going too far. Lets just grab some beers and turn on some cartoons and just calm down.

Follow @chaostoon on Twitter!

I think AWN covered this topic back in 2002. Harvey doesn't have any new information.

http://mag.awn.com/index.php?article_no=1439

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

As for Walt's feelings about Fascist Germany, Eliot says he regularly attended meetings and social events of the American Nazi party. The statement is probably a gross exaggeration of the truth, but he did in fact meet with Fascists including Germany's most celebrated filmmaker, Leni Reifenstahl, when she visited Hollywood in 1938. Her L.A. visit was protested by people with strong anti-Nazi feelings and several studio heads decided not to meet with her. Walt's main motivation to meet her may have been to find a way to recover money owed his firm by his German film distributor. A book recently published in Germany says Roy and Walt went to Germany in 1937 to try and retrieve over 135,000 Reichmarks owed them (they were on a tour of Europe promoting Snow White). They may also have lobbied to get Germany to lift its ban on importing films from the U.S. Their visit to Germany was unsuccessful. Since the brothers were capitalists, I suspect any positive feelings they might have had about Hitler were replaced by hatred for the SOB that was robbing them of their share of their films' income in Germany. Their anti-German sentiment is quite obvious in their WWII propaganda films.

I think this is more informative than an individual trying to paint a picture of someone and stir up controversy.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

I belong to a political board right now that is espousing boycotting Disney films because they are associated with Israeli production. What do we believe? Nazi or Zionist, what's the truth....or just cartoons that apeal to you?

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Thanks, guys, for getting back on topic! Respek!

I think AWN covered this topic back in 2002. Harvey doesn't have any new information.

Thanks for the link, but an article is not a discussion; and naturally, 50-year-old information is not "new."
That article should provide more fuel for the topic, however.

I think this is more informative than an individual trying to paint a picture of someone and stir up controversy.

Are we back to killing the messenger already?
Please excuse me if I didn't paste every article and every possible angle in my initial post.

I belong to a political board right now that is espousing boycotting Disney films because they are associated with Israeli production. What do we believe? Nazi or Zionist, what's the truth....or just cartoons that apeal to you?

That's a different topic for a new thread; but careful: people will accuse you of just wanting to "stir up controversy."

Disney's cartoons are, comparatively, boring-as-hell, so how is it that he's the house-hold name that Fleischer isn't?

Disney cartoons were more family-friendly than Fleischers'. Disney got a very early foothold in the market with Mickey sound cartoons. Until the 1940s, Disney cartoons were always animated better than other studios' cartoons. In the early '30s, the world loovvvvvveeeedddd Mickey Mouse. Mickey was not a "boring-as-hell" character in the beginning. More interesting characters from other studios came along much later.

It just illustrates that guys like Disney or John K have flaws.......and you can either acknowledge those flaws and look at their works in two seperate lights or you can choose to let their lesser deeds overshadow their greater deeds.

I believe that we have been seperating the man from his work. Saj and Phacker have panned Disney cartoons here, but I don't believe they've ever claimed that the cartoons are bad because Disney is bad.

Whether Disney is a creepy guy or not, there were hundreds of other talented people who worked on those cartoons who we should assume are good people.

The consensus seems to be that Disney was a scumbag, which surprises me. I haven't heard anyone suggest that Disney was good because he thought he was serving America.
You have to remember that, during the Red Scare, politicians where telling us that Commies who wanted to destroy America were hiding amongst us, and that labor unions were the breeding grounds of communism. Whether owing to truth or propaganda, most of the country believed this at the time. At the time that Walt attended the Nazi meetings, the Nazis were not known as the Jew-exterminating party. They were the anti-communist and pro-business party. All of his later anti-labor actions seem to have surfaced from a sincere belief that labor unions wanted to destroy the American way of life (and take over his studio).

Perhaps he wasn't a scumbag at all. Perhaps he was just a sap. Can we fault him for trusting the government during a supposed time of national crisis? As a way of comparison, how many of you backed the Bush administration when they claimed that Saddam was going to nuke us?

So your information is "new" Harvey? Don't think so.

Witch hunts are just that...the McCarthy trials took many talented people off target and goal, and I think that's what you are trying to do.

Witch hunts in the early pioneer times and during the McCarthy trials were an effort to absorb and acquire land and power. Your tirade... I am not sure what the issure is but you like to be seen and heard.

Actually Harvey never having seen any of your work, I am not even sure you are an animator.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

So your information is "new" Harvey? Don't think so.

I never claimed that the information was new.
How can 50-year-old information be new? :rolleyes:

Actually Harvey never having seen any of your work, I am not even sure you are an animator.

Please do not derail the thread again with your personal attacks. Whether I animate or not has no bearing on the topic. :rolleyes:

I think and most of us here think it does have a bearing Harvey. Why should you be above scrutiny? You love to roll up balls and throw them, but you never enjoy being in the "catcher's" position.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Are we writing your thesis for you Harve? If so sorry I won't be a pawn.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Actually Harvey never having seen any of your work, I am not even sure you are an animator.
...
I think and most of us here think it does have a bearing Harvey. Why should you be above scrutiny?

Remember when a certain forum member attacked you, Phacker, and told you your opinion was invalid because he felt you couldn't draw well and you didn't have any studio experience? Remember how I defended you and said your opinion was just as valid as everyone else's?

How far you have fallen. Good luck looking yourself in the mirror.

Some of us are trying to resume the discussion, but it seems like you won't be happy until you derail my thread again.
I'm putting you on ignore, so don't take offense when I don't respond to your attacks.

Would anyone else like to join the mob and pile on? :rolleyes:

What exactly is the discussion Harvey?

Swade and I worked our differences out. And we both toed the line and posted examples of our work. I've yet to see any of yours. You weren't my champion. I never needed one. I can fight my own battles. You take questions as to your background as personal assaults, they aren't. They are questions building to the accuracy of your replies and questions. You love to cause controversy here, why? Are you an animator, if so show us some of your work.

My work has always been out there for perusal. Never hid behind false attempts to claim studio experience. I am a web animator, self taught and proud of the work I've put in. I never worked for Disney or Pixar, but I've managed to pay my bills with freelance work.

I've never placed myself as better than anyone. I've helped Gabe find his footing as a newbie, and I've locked horns with the Ape early on, but we have all each respected each other. You on the other hand love to work all us against each other and yourself. It's sad, because if you are an animator we'd love to help you develop your skills.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

I'm putting you on ignore, so don't take offense when I don't respond to your attacks.

Would anyone else like to join the mob and pile on? :rolleyes:

"I've got a little list...I've got a little list"..The Mikado

my my, someone isn't making friends very well, is he??

Hey Billy and Ad Hominem, never shot the messenger, never even knew what his true message was. Never been one to join anyone's movement. I am strictly an individual. I will stand up for friends, but not without cause. I follow no one blindly.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

It's very hard to make a personal attack when you don't know the person personally or anything about them.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Walt was who was, so what's the big deal. Harvey provided old material and objected to old material that was provided to the discussion. So just what is the discussion about? Harvey maybe? It doesn't seem to be about Walt.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Actually Harvey never having seen any of your work, I am not even sure you are an animator.

Phacker, I'd like you to meet Ad Hominem. Ad Hominem, Phacker. Oh, I see you're already aquainted. :(

Anyway, moving on. Just because a majority of people buy-in to scare tactics doesn't absolve Disney of his scum. I never bought in to the Saddam/Weapons bullshit, mainly because there was so much information available (thanks, to the internet). Yet, even though the information was there, many people decided to irrationally fear Saddam anway, because it was more dramatic.

Why do Americans love war?

Again, everyone on the anti-communist lynch-mobs of the past is still a former lynch-mobber. If all your friends wanted to jump off a bridge, bust unions and genocide the Jews, would you do it, too?

Phacker, I'd like you to meet Ad Hominem. Ad Hominem, Phacker. Oh, I see you're already aquainted. :(

Argumentum ad Hominem (abusive and circumstantial): the fallacy of attacking the character or circumstances of an individual who is advancing a statement or an argument instead of trying to disprove the truth of the statement or the soundness of the argument. Often the argument is characterized simply as a personal attack.[LIST=1]
[*]The personal attack is also often termed an "ad personem argument": the statement or argument at issue is dropped from consideration or is ignored, and the locutor's character or circumstances are used to influence opinion.
[*]The fallacy draws its appeal from the technique of "getting personal." The assumption is that what the locutor is saying is entirely or partially dictated by his character or special circumstances and so should be disregarded.[/LIST]...
The phrase now chiefly describes an argument based on the failings of an adversary rather than on the merits of the case: Ad hominem attacks on one's opponent are a tried-and-true strategy for people who have a case that is weak.

I never bought in to the Saddam/Weapons bullshit, mainly because there was so much information available (thanks, to the internet).

So Walt should have used the internet more often? :D

If all your friends wanted to jump off a bridge, bust unions and genocide the Jews, would you do it, too?

Ask a 1930s German citizen.

Billy and Harvey you should just take this to pm, since the rest of us have been added to ignore lists. No point in responding any further or following this thread. It's sad that animation has become secondary to the discussion.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Billy and Harvey you should just take this to pm, since the rest of us have been added to ignore lists. No point in responding any further or following this thread. It's sad that animation has become secondary to the discussion.

The Animation Cafe is big enough for everyone.

Billy and Harvey you should just take this to pm, since the rest of us have been added to ignore lists. No point in responding any further or following this thread.

...

You gotta love that logic.
"Unless you're willing to ignore the topic and bash Harvey instead, please have your Disney discussion in private."

I have to admit, though, that I haven't taken into consideration Disney WWII propaganda films. They're obviously anti-Nazi.

Prior to his invasions of Poland and France, Hitler was greatly admired in the U.S.
After Hitler declared war on the U.S. - shortly after the bombing of Pearl Harbor - every American who had loved Hitler had to claim that they hated him.

Never meant to bash Harvey. No way. Just he only wants to talk to who he wants to talk to. Of course there is room at AWN for everyone.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

After Hitler declared war on the U.S. - shortly after the bombing of Pearl Harbor - every American who had loved Hitler had to claim that they hated him.

Okay, but what's with Disney's mistreatment of his own artists, like Walt Kelly?

Okay, but what's with Disney's mistreatment of his own artists, like Walt Kelly?

I don't know anything about Walt Kelly's experience at the Disney studio.
All I know is he was fired after he joined the 1941 strike.

Disney considered him a "trouble maker".

I don't know anything about Walt Kelly's experience at the Disney studio.
All I know is he was fired after he joined the 1941 strike.

Source please ? How do you know Walt Kelly was "fired" after he joined the 1941 strike ?

sajdera referring to Walt Kelly:

Disney considered him a "trouble maker".

Maybe, maybe not. How do you know ?

"EustaceScrubb" has left the building

[quote=Harvey Human]I don't know anything about Walt Kelly's experience at the Disney studio.
All I know is he was fired after he joined the 1941 strike.

Source please ? How do you know Walt Kelly was "fired" after he joined the 1941 strike ?[/quote] http://mag.awn.com/index.php?ltype=pageone&article_no=2562&page=3

"The strike lasted for nine weeks until Disney was at last compelled by Federal mediators, nationwide boycotts, his financiers the Bank of America and his brother Roy to give in and recognize the Guild. On Sept 21, 1941, everyone went back to work. Salaries doubled overnight for a 40-hour workweek and screen credits were established. The Screen Cartoonist Guild now represented 90% of Hollywood animation workers.
...
"Slowly, the pro-union artists were made to feel unwanted and drifted away from the [Disney] studio. Whenever there was a staff cutback, the union supporters were always the first to go, and, when the Federally mandated 90-day arbitration period ended, Disney’s fired even more.
...
"Walt Kelly was an animator and story artist on Pinocchio, Dumbo, and Bambi. He was fired by Disney after the 90-day federal period was over."

- Tom Sito, f[I]ormer Disney animator,
president emeritus of the Hollywood Animation Guild Local 839,
author of the upcoming book [/I]Drawing The Line: The Untold Story of Animation Labor From Bosko to Bart Simpson,crewmember on Shrek, Antz, The Thief and the Cobbler, Aladdin, The Little Mermaid, The Lion King, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Rock & Rule, and, of course, Ultimate Avengers 2: Rise of the Panther.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0813124077/sr=8-7/qid=1155853147/ref=pd_bbs_7/104-8541620-1783944?ie=UTF8

http://mag.awn.com/index.php?ltype=pageone&article_no=2562&page=3

"Walt Kelly was an animator and story artist on Pinocchio, Dumbo, and Bambi. He was fired by Disney after the 90-day federal period was over."

-Tom Sito[I]
author of the upcoming book [/I]Drawing The Line: The Untold Story of Animation Labor From Bosko to Bart Simpson

Thanks for quoting your source.

Now , me being a bit of a skeptic , that just kicks it up a notch since there's no source provided in the article you reference. An assertion is made that Walt Kelly "was fired by Disney after the 90-day federal period was over." but no source is given.

I am actually very interested to read Tom's book and had already planned to buy it before this . The book should be released any day now. I am curious to see if this bit about Walt Kelly being fired made it into the final version of the book. The article on AWN which you cite gives a slightly different version of how the strike effected Kelly from the version given in this sample chapter of Sito's book posted on his web site.

My understanding of the case, based on what I have previously read regarding Kelly, re: his time at Disney and the 1941 Disney strike comes from the excellent book "Phi Beta Pogo" Edited by Selby Kelly and Bill Crouch Jr. (NY: Fireside/Simon & Schuster, 1989. ) Selby Kelly was Walt Kelly's third wife and trustee of his literary estate. . Bill Crouch Jr. published the Kelly fanzine "The Okefenokee Star". I am also relying on the biographical material on Kelly provided by the cartoonist and noted comics scholar R.C. Harvey in the anthology "Pogo by Walt Kelly, Volume 1" ,published by Fantagraphics Books.

R.C. Harvey writes

"As much as Kelly enjoyed the fellowship he found at Disney, he was not entirely happy there, according to Kimball. Animated cartooning is assembly-line work; the final product is the result of hundreds of contibutions by others. Cartoonists who work in animation suppress their own personalities and styles in order to produce the standard product. And this was not the sort of work Kelly was suited for. He was looking for some way to escape when the notorious labor dispute erupted in the spring of 1941. " [emphasis added]

Harvey continues :

"The strike was bitter and prolonged. The first picket line was set up on May 29, and the strike lasted though the summer into September ...
For Kelly, that first picket line was the last straw. He had friends on both sides of the line and didn't want to support either at the expense of the other. Claiming family problems (his sister was ill) , he took a leave-of-absence from the studio and was back East in a few days. Helen followed him as soon as she could. Kelly never returned. Officially, he went off the Disney payroll on September 12, 1941."

Notice that Kelly leaves the studio on his own volition and chooses not to return. When the strike ends and the strikers go back to work at Disney in September Kelly is taken off the Disney payroll , which I suppose could be interpreted as his being "fired" at that time , but seems more likely to be the tacit acknowledgement by the company that Kelly's gone and he ain't 'a comin' back no more. However, reading the Ward Kimball interview (quoted below) it would seem that Kelly returned one last time to the Disney Studio to wrap up his business there and pick up a few personal belongings, probably in September of 1941, after he had returned from spending the summer back on the East Coast . This would indicate that he chose not to return to Disney after his leave-of-absence ended and at that point the studio and Kelly mutually severed their relationship . (this is certainly not being "fired", even if he was in some way made to feel unwelcome to return to the studio because of his support for the strikers ; although that is speculation).

On page 131 of "Phi Beta Pogo" , editor Bill Crouch Jr. notes:

"According to Helen Kelly, Walt Kelly crossed the picket line prior to leaving to talk with Walt Disney. At this meeting Disney provided entree to Western Publishing for Kelly by suggesting he see either Oskar Lebeck or Mike McClutick when he returned to the East Coast."

And we know that , in fact, Kelly did start doing comic book work around that time (late 1941, early 1942) for Western Publishing which licensed the Disney characters for comic book. (Wow, what are we make of this : apparently the dread pirate Walt Disney himself intervened to help get Walt Kelly a job doing comics for Western Publishing ? Interesting. )

Long post , so I'll finish it up in the next .

"EustaceScrubb" has left the building

[continued from my last post]

The real goldmine in "Phi Beta Pogo" is the long interview of Ward Kimball by Thomas Andrae and Geoffrey Blum (pages 132 - 147) . The interview goes into great detail on life at Disney's in the late 30's and early 40's and the close friendship that developed between Ward Kimball and Walt Kelly (and both of them were also close friends of Fred Moore ; Moore, Kimball, and Kelly seem to have been the Three Caballeros around the Disney studio, full of jokes, laughs , and good times) .

On page 138 the question is posed to Kimball : [I][B]

Q.)Why did Kelly leave the Disney Studio ?" [/B][/I]

Kimball:

"When the strike happened in 1941, he liked the guys who were in the lower echelon, the inbetweeners and assistants who were the bulk of the strikers , and he also had friends in the so-called "executive" branch: Fred , myself -- we were supervising animators -- and Bill Cottrell, who was a supervising storyman. So he refused to take sides, and instead of going out on strike he simply resigned from the Studio.
Before he went east, he came back to the Studio one last time to get some of his personal stuff ... Kelly came into my room while I was away from my desk and made a sketch of himself looking at my drawing of Goofy with a quizzical expression on his face. The caption says : "This ain't the Kimball we knew once and loved well". Later , when I found out that he had been in to say good-bye, I felt so sad that I had missed him.
Actually , he had wanted to leave Disney's all along , because animation was a little hard on him : he was basically a comic strip and gag man . The art of making things move, and the mechanics involved, seeme insurmountable to him. Not that he couldn't do it , but he wanted to have more fun doing his own thing ... so Kelly went back east and did comic books."

On page 142 of "Phi Beta Pogo" :

Q.) Back to Kelly: Did you keep in touch with him after he left the Studio?

Kimball:

We kept in touch by letter. He lived in Darien, Connecticut, at Old King's Highway and Fairmead Road. I would send him reports of what was happening during the strike, and he'd send back idiotic pictures --- he'd find awful snapshots and talk about them . " [Kimball starts to leaf through an album of letters]

A long quote from a letter to Fred and Ward follows in the interview. Kelly writes:

"If worst comes to worst , I may be here another month or more. Seriously, it's not good here like it's good where you are . However, the strike is probably doing nothing for your peace of mind, either. Sure hope one side or the other dies off or something before everything goes to pot. I've enough to worry about without fighting picket lines" [emphasis added]

There's a lot more of these letters written to Kimball and Fred Moore from Kelly when he was back east , but the point is to notice where Walt Kelly isn't : he's not on the picket line outside of the Disney Studios. And apparently from his remarks he didn't have too much of a taste for it to begin with.

Another letter from Kelly to his friends back at Disney reads, in part,
referring to the strike :

"Dear Fred and Ward,
... it may interesk both of you to know that a phew more days here and I hope to be heading back to the western frunk. Thanks for the first hand account of the battle. To date we have had only scattered reports from men farting in empty beer bottles in the back of the lines. Yours is the first on-the-scenes description."

[skipping some of Kelly's letter in the interest of saving space]

"Thanks again for the detailed report , Ward and Fred. I've written to *Hal telling him how I feel about the setup ; that name-calling jamboree made my back hair rise. I can just see Williams and Riley taking it with a smile.
Undoubtedly the Guild has lost friends by their methods. I'm real hopeful of getting back to California in a few days. That depends on my sister's condition. But unless I tell you differently, I'll be around and be called a sommoner bitch along with the rest of you loyal bastards within a week or so."

(*the names referred to in Kelly's letter : "Hal" = Hal Adelquist was the Studio's personnel director at that time. "Williams" = Roy Williams was a prolific gag writer for the Disney Studio , "Riley" = Riley Thompson, an animator and director at Disney in the 1930s's and 40's )

page 143 of "Phi Beta Pogo" -

Q.) Did you hear after that letter that he wasn't coming back to the Studio ?

Kimball:

"No; he was looking for any excuse to get out of there, because he didn't want to take sides in the strike. Later I heard he was looking for work, and then he started doing comic books."

There are numerous other excerpts printed from Kelly's letters to his old friend Kimball over the years (from 1943 and 1958 among others) and I would highly recommend looking for a used copy of this book "Phi Beta Pogo" (now out-of- print) just for the Ward Kimball interview , among the other great artwork, articles, and interviews about Walt Kelly in the book .

There you go. Food for thought .

"EustaceScrubb" has left the building

Thanks for the info and all the work you put into your post. :)

So Walt should have used the internet more often? :D.

Seriously. Get with the times.

I have to admit, though, that I haven't taken into consideration Disney WWII propaganda films. They're obviously anti-Nazi.

........John was found in LA, iirc, "blowing off steam"--while the folks working on his show were waiting to get paid........
........while the producer/studio head goes off "to clear his head" .......

That means drugs, right? I heard something to that affect once. If so, then it seems rather hypocritical of him to bellyache about not having enough money for his own projects. Well, if you stopped giving a chunk of that money to Raoul in a back alley in exchange for "happiness juice" you'd have plenty of money to make all sorts of cartoons. (Who double dog dares me to say that to him in person. :eek: )

Anyway, about this thread's topic. Yeah, I've been lurking for a while looking for a spot to jump in.

Harvey, presenting all this info about Disney's sinister past is fine but I think with stuff this heinous it should be used only for a specific purpose. For example, if some clueless flake came on here saying "Oh, Disney is the Magic Kingdom where you wish upon a star and soar through the clouds to discover your dreams and where a little mouse has touched your heart.......blah blah blah" THEN whack that poster right between the eyes with all this 'secret Nazi meetings' and 'union busting' and 'overly strict control' information in order to snap him/her back into reality. Otherwise, it sortof looks like you're trying to star a fight just to start a fight.

I personally love learning as much as I can about animation history no matter what it is. But, some people need a bit of time for information to sink in (especially that of this nature) before they can discuss rationally about it. Myself, I say post as much info on Uncle Walt as you have. I'll read it. :cool:

Order my book Jesus Needs Help on Amazon or download on Kindle.

You can also read the first 18 pages of my next book for free at this link: The Hap Hap Happy Happenstance of Fanny Punongtiti

I like John Kricfalusi's work - well, I'm not a fan but I appreciate the artistic style and off-colour content. The man managed to combine th now-retro flair of the old WB cartoons with edgy stories and gags (though less bluntly than South Park), created a rather unique sub-nieche for himself and enjoys the appreciation of a cult following. Is it possible it's gotten to his head? Sure, but I'm with Ken: that doesn't make me enjoy Ren & Stimpy a lot less. Leaves an aftertaste, yes, but a line should be drawn between creator and creation, especially in animation where many creatives contribute to the same project.
That doesn't mean, of course, guys like Kricfalusi should travel around and "let off whatever kind of steam" while those depending on him get into financial trouble - but that's a different problem to me and happens in all kinds of businesses.

Mickey's neutering
Disney's cartoons are, comparatively, boring-as-hell, so how is it that he's the house-hold name that Fleischer isn't?

Mickey was not a "boring-as-hell" character in the beginning.

In the interest of animation history, I'm expanding this comment with a few quotes.

[Maurice] Sendak, who based the character of Max in his children's book "Where the Wild Things Are" on Mickey Mouse, is an exact contemporary of the cartoon rodent: both were born in 1928. "I was around 6 when I first saw him," he said. "It filled me with joy. I think it was those primary colors so vivid and pure, taken up with the most incredibly beautiful animation, reminding you of Fred Astaire. Oh! And his character was the kind I wished I'd had as a child: brave and sassy and nasty and crooked and thinking of ways to outdo people." The joy leached from Mr. Sendak's voice. "Not like the lifeless fat pig he is now."
...
if [Mickey] was based, as many people say, on Disney himself (he provided the voice), you've got to wonder about Walt. The original Mickey — who made his public debut in the first synchronized-sound cartoon — was only partly civilized: uninhibited, bare-chested, rough-and ready to the point of sadism. His chums were farmyard animals like Claraballe Cow and Horace Horsecollar, and, like most cartoon characters of the period, he blithely trafficked in fistfights, drownings, dismemberments. For violence, the shipboard shenanigans of "Steamboat Willie" far exceed those in "Steamboat Bill Jr.," the Buster Keaton feature that inspired it. In one sequence, Mickey tortures various animals — banging cow teeth, tweaking pig nipples — in order to produce a rendition of "Turkey in the Straw."

But that richly drawn, disreputable character, born of desperation and betrayal, got watered down almost from the moment he was introduced.
...
"He couldn't have any of the naughty qualities he had in his earlier cartoons," said Mr. Smith, of the Disney archives, "because so many people looked up to him. The studio would get complaints in the mail."

So, sometime in the mid- to late 1930's, Mickey settled down. Barnyard cohorts and rail-riding adventures gave way to suburban domesticity with his non-wife Minnie ("They just lived together as friends," said Mr. Smith. "For a very long time") and their unexplained nephews. At the same time, Mickey's perverse qualities were grafted onto his new supporting cast — Donald Duck and Goofy, especially — who by the 1940's, according to Mr. Smith, eclipsed the mouse in popularity.
...
people like Mr. Sendak, who learned to love Mickey as a startling work of art and as an unlikely avatar of survival, don't want him to be more shiny, synthetic and likable. For them, the mystery isn't what Disney should do with him; it's why he lasted so long with nothing left to say. They want him retired if he can't be restored to what he (and America) was in 1930: an underdog struggling to secure his safety in a ridiculously dangerous world.

I'm a bit late on this, but just to chime in: I don't think Disney was a scumbag.

The nazi and anti-semitism accusations have been floating around for a long time, but they are pure fabrication based mostly on conjecture and very little real evidence. If Art Babbit didn't think Walt was an anti-semite, that's good enough for me.

I do however believe Walt was politically very naive, and handled the strike very badly. But don't forget the same thing happened to the Fleishers. That was also a nasty strike. Goons were hired. Most of the picketers were never forgiven, and a rift formed in the studio.

I'd compare the communist witch hunt to certain aspects of the current 'war on terror'. Many well-meaning but gullible people get taken in by the fear-mongering. At that time people were lead to believe that a foreign propaganda machine was attempting to infiltrate Hollywood. Fear tends to lead to irrational behaviour.

There are also various reports that in private Disney had a foul mouth and could give very brutal critiques. I'd tend to believe this, but then for someone who was so ambitious and was running a large company, that's not that unusual. It's lonely at the top.

I've heard a lot of bad stuff about other prominent people in animation like Bluth, John K, Richard Williams and Bakshi. I think at the root of it, there is a certain resentment caused by 1 person getting all the glory in what is always a team effort. Animators are as big gossips as anyone else, and juicy rumours travel far, however that's not to say that there isn't sometimes a certain amount of truth. Just take it with a grain of salt.

Walt stiffs his animators

We didn't cover one source of the strike - growing worker discontent - which might get us back on topic.

QUOTE:
Walt had promised his exhausted staff in 1937 that their sacrifices to finish "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves" would be repaid with big bonuses from the profits. "Snow White" did not only become a success, it was a phenomenon, the "Jurassic Park" of it's time, earning four times the box office of any other film of 1938. Yet no bonuses ever materialised. An article in the L.A. Evening News noted that people naturally assumed that the anonymous Disney magicians (no credits were allowed but Walt's) were even now enjoying fat royalty cheeks. Disney had withheld the monies in order to pursue his agressive expansion plans, like the big new studio in Burbank. He became increasingly isolated from his artists and his attorney Gunther Lessing urged a hard fiscal conservatism with the help. The inequities of pay ranged from a top animator being paid $500 a week, to a cel painter being paid $12 a week. One bachelor aniimator on "Fantasia" used to augment his assistant's salary out of his own pocket because the studio refused to his raise. Finally, during a temporary slump after the box office failure of "Fantasia", what the animators got instead of the promised bonuses was layoffs. Animator Preston Blair's layoff notice was on stationary with the dancing Alligators and Hippos of "Fantasia" he himself had created.

http://grimsociety.com/archives/disstrke.html

QUOTE:
Although Disney artists were the best paid and worked under the best conditions in the industry, there was discontent. In The Disney Version, Richard Schickel writes, "Many of the employees had given Disney large quantities of free overtime during the drive to complete [the 1937 Snow White]," and despite the fact that Snow White was an enormous success, "instead of getting the bonuses they had been vaguely promised, they were faced with a string of layoffs.... The salary structure remained crazy-quilt, and the only general wage increase Disney granted in those years was self-serving: he brought a number of workers up over the forty-dollar-a-week level, at which point, under the Wagner Labor Relations Act, they ceased being entitled to time-and-a-half for overtime." Schickel says that Disney "responded gracelessly to the pressures of his increasingly difficult economic situation." Story conferences became brutal. "An animator working on Fantasia took piano lessons at his own expense" to increase his understanding of music, and when Disney found out about it, he snarled "What are you, some kind of fag?" This quote may, however, be apocryphal, since according to other sources, more sympathetic than Schickel, Disney did appreciate his artist's interest in art forms other than animation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney_animators'_strike

QUOTE:
Behind the [PR], the Walt Disney Studio had grown from a few friends in a storefront to an industrial plant where 1293 employees labored six days a week. Disney plowed the profits back into new studio facilities and bolder experiments in animation and stereophonic sound. But wages remained low across the board and bonuses or raises were given irregularly at the whim of management. No screen credit was allowed other than Walt’s. The next films Pinocchio and Fantasia failed to generate the same success as Snow White.

Be it mid-life disillusion, the death of his mother or the impending World War that was drying up overseas box office, but, by 1941, Uncle Walt the folksy cartoonist became Mr. Disney, the worry-racked capitalist. Walt may still have thought of himself as just one of the guys, but to many he was the boss. He grew isolated from his artists. Those who managed to spot him were those who worked nights or weekends. Then he could be seen walking around the empty tables looking to see what they were doing.

http://mag.awn.com/index.php?ltype=pageone&article_no=2562

Oh my my (shakes head).

To think that someone here would be quoting from the thoroughly discredited book "Hollywood's Dark Prince" and that Schickel thing and expect to be taken seriously. That "Prince" book in particular is of course only one of actually several hatchet-job "biographies" done on Disney, but it is by far the worst. It's the only one Walt's daughter Daisy spoke out about that I know of, because it's just so damn heinous.

But, for the sake of argument...if Walt were anti-Semitic, why do the Sherman Brothers (who wrote the Oscar-winning score to "Mary Poppins" among other Disney movies) defend him so rigorously against that charge? Why was he given an award by the B'nai Brith?

Ya want proof? Well, here's what Robert Sherman of the aforementioned Sherman Brothers told author Pat Williams:

"Walt was sensitive to people's feelings. He hated to see people mistreated or discriminated against. One time, Richard and I overheard a discussion between Walt and one of his lawyers. This attorney was a real bad guy, didn't like minorities. He said something about Richard and me, and he called us 'those Jew boys writing these songs'. Well, Walt defended us, and fired the lawyer. Walt was unbelievably great to us."

And here's more, from Disney artist Joe Grant: "Walt was not anti-Semitic. Some of the most influential people at the studio were Jewish. It's just much ado about nothing. I never once had a problem with him in that way. That myth should be laid to rest."

- both quotes are from "How To Be Like Walt"; more info on the book is below.

Walt is a favorite target to some in the journalistic community primarily because of his wholesome image - and there are those writers out there who consider themselves intellectuals and therefore debunkers of all things wholesome. :rolleyes: Walt smoked, drank a little and cursed from time to time (although never in front of kids or the ladies, by all accounts). He also never stepped out on his wife and he drove his kids to Sunday School. Before the strike you speak of, he treated his employees better than virtually any employer in Hollywood, which is why he took the strike so personally; what angered him was hurt feelings, not a potential loss in profit by giving in to the strikers' demands. Yes, he overreacted, and took some bad advice, but he doesn't deserve to be demonized for it IMO.

I have read several Disney bios and by far the most honest and even-handed is the aforementioned book "How To Be Like Walt" - yes, I know the title is off-putting, but the guy who wrote it has written a series of "How To Be Like-" books, and Walt is just one of his subjects. And the author did do his homework, talking to virtually anyone and everyone who ever worked for Walt, plus his family and friends. Walt's flaws - his moodiness, his occasional bouts of temper, his tendency to criticize rather than praise - are all acknowledged. But his good qualities are in the book too, and he had plenty of them apparently. That's the reason he's one of my few childhood heroes who remains a hero with me. He wasn't just a successful man, he was basically a good and decent one. Sorry to debunk yet another myth, but hey, that's what we intellectuals do. ;) :D

I couldn't go through all the pages; currently pages are taking too long to d'load.

for the first 3 pages and this page (last page) it seems that the focus on the thread is on Walt - who is dead and no longer can harm nor help animators - rather than the company and it's CEO's at large.

THESE are the ones *I* worry about, especially since the last place where people that got paid traditionally to draw with penil on paper here in Oz, Dis Studios in Australia - closed up shop and put over 200 people out of work because they decided that Pixar and what I call the "wet clay look" was the only viable source of revenue.

Despite Family Guy, American Dad, many other trad. toon series.

Which sets a precedent which can only be harmful to people who love to draw in the "old school" manner.

I am much more interested in a discussion over if Disney the corporate entity is a scumbag rather than Disney the man and founder, since he can't do jack to anyone or for anyone anymore.

I mean, in the late 90's, I looked at applying to Dis in Florida and was warned off by a fellow person in my circle who had worked their. at least one good horror story about THAT, I can say. Plus the weird "live in our apartment complex where we've set it up and have all these psycho regulations about what is acceptable living behaviour off the professional premises even after you are off the clock" stuff.

[I]I'll work 10 hours a day for $350.

Andreas does the photoshop posters for Paramount, gets $700 per day at 7 hours plus an hour off for lunch.

You do the math as to which is a better deal.[/I]

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