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A problem with Indian Animators and Industry

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A problem with Indian Animators and Industry

A recent problem that has happened to me twice.. people quitting without notice.

My lead animator and a senior Flash animator both quit (she 2 months ago) and he just this morning. Without notice. Even though they have been specifically asked to give one months notice.

this is a general malaise prevalent in the Indian animation industry, people get poached (which is fine) but the poacher or nor the employees care about things like contracts or notices. Since no one around is willing to enforce rules people continue to break them.

i for one have always insisted someone quitting to join me to give atleast 3 weeks notice to their employer before joining me.

The quitting caused me no problem becuase for the Flash animator, i was already considering moving her onto something less intense.

The lead animator was a bit of a shock, but it was a blessing anyway as it frees me up to hire someone who can work the pencil and the mouse for the same salary. He came in and said he had an offer he had consented to and was starting next week. He had the offer for a week now.

i could have done some interviews in the meantime. not a problem, i know a lot of people here, enough to get people on a dime freelancing so work does not suffer.

Just dissapointing, when you treat people like family and give them all you can, allow them days off, pay them ON TIME every time and they in turn go mercenary on you...

makes me cynical.

If you pay them more they won't quit.

If you treat them well, they'll be loyal even you can't pay as much.

It's not the animators' fault.

If you pay them more they won't quit.

If you treat them well, they'll be loyal even you can't pay as much.

It's not the animators' fault.

That's the biggest load of hogwash I have ever heard!
To think that people either stay or go at a job based solely upon their employer is ridiculous! There are so many other factors. You don't know how many animators I have worked with that have left a good job to go work for another studio, just because they like the content or premise of a show or movie better than the one the are currently on.
What about location of the studio they are at? What if you are at a good job, but you have to drive over an hour one-way just to get to work? A job opportunity opens up that is closer to your home and would cut down on your commute drastically, and your friend can get you a job there for the same pay as your current job. I could go on making even more hypothetical situations, but you get the basic idea: whether a person stays at a job or decides to leave, is NOT based solely on his employer!!!

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That's the biggest load of hogwash I have ever heard!
To think that people either stay or go at a job based solely upon their employer is ridiculous! There are so many other factors. You don't know how many animators I have worked with that have left a good job to go work for another studio, just because they like the content or premise of a show or movie better than the one the are currently on.
What about location of the studio they are at? What if you are at a good job, but you have to drive over an hour one-way just to get to work? A job opportunity opens up that is closer to your home and would cut down on your commute drastically, and your friend can get you a job there for the same pay as your current job. I could go on making even more hypothetical situations, but you get the basic idea: whether a person stays at a job or decides to leave, is NOT based solely on his employer!!!

I agree completely.
The ethics of talent all over the world vary so much, and for so many reasons.

Once this craft starts being done for pay, the craftsman starts looking at the job for very personal reasons.
Money is a huge factor--probably the biggest one, as most people view money as the greatest life-tool. The promise of more pay, but slightly less pleasant working conditions will usually get a talent to overlook the conditions--the idea being the ol' "no pain, no gain" mindset.

Look at it this way.........no matter how the employer treats a talent, the talent will inevitably look at the work as a task--and if someone offers them more to do the same task........well, the lure is gain.
Its ALL about gain.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

In my experience, artists have not accepted work for two reasons 1) not enough money, 2) another project had a longer booking.

Perhaps geography plays a greater role in other parts of the world. I've never experienced this.

I have never experienced an artist leaving for a "better project". This sounds like career suicide to me.

My two cents worth....

Animators always think the grass is greener in other pastures... Especially when they lack experience, as if they had experienced other studios, they would realize that the grass is generally the same colour everywhere.

That being said... India's industry is in the middle of a BOOM. "Studios" are popping up on every street corner, as the animation industry is being seen as a cash cow in that country by the folks with the rupees. Contracts there mean absolutely nothing, as no, they cannot be enforced. How will you enforce them with a terribly corrupt legal system? I suppose that if you have enough rupees yourself, you can pay someone off (judges, etc.), and force your people to come back, but do you really want someone working for you who does not want to be there, and quit for "greener grass"?

Like here in Canada, there is a shortage of animation talent, and you do in fact need to be able to compete salary-wise and working conditions-wise, but other studios will fight back and sweeten their pots as well. Studios are HUNGRY for talent and will do what it takes to get that talent. You just need to fight fire with fire, look at animators as expendable (I cannot believe I am saying that, but business is business), and replace the deseters with folks you steal from other studios.

Good luck.

"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

This is a problem in all line of work. My brother has me but has had no good luck in finding another person that would work as well as we do.

On the other hand if I was working for some other person, I would have left this line of work years ago.

So my two cents, it has to do with the character of the person. Maybe you could get them to sign a simple contract that lets you hold back two weeks worth of pay. If they quit without notice they do not get the money. It sounds a little evil to me, I know I would hate a employer who would put something like that over me.

i have no problem with people leaving. i understand people have better opportunities somewhere (better for them personally)

my point is how bout a little f*****g notice. its not my style to hold pay etc when someone leaves. same time i cant keep someone there who dosent want to be. id hate looking at them all the time being miserable.

just a little notice would have been nice. t

You are experiencing a boom and this is what is called a feeding frenzy for talent. It is unprofessional for workers not to give notice. If it were me as proprietor, not being one for litigation, I would just chalk it up that they've just burned a bridge with me. Although I wouldn't make any big pronouncement about it; just keep a mental account. Being from the homeland of Kharma, you surely understand this ;) .
You sound like a nice guy not wanting to repay a wrong with a wrong.

just a little notice would have been nice. t

Yeah, that's just a character defect. Even when there is a job boom and studios are hiring people left and right, emploiees should still give at least two weeks notice. If anything it hurts them. If they just up and quit, it a) doesn't give you a chance to counter the job offer from the other studio, and b) burns a bridge with you.

Like Graphite said, just make a mental note, and don't ever hire this person again, or if people ask about them, just tell them the truth. It's never good to have producers taking poorly about you.

Aloha,
the Ape

P.S.
Oh yeah, the best thing you can do to keep this from happening, is to pay them well, and treat them fairly and with respect (not that you don't) If you do that, and they still jump ship, then there's nothing you can do. Don't take it personally.

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

I completely understand that people would like notice, and it is customary here in North America to give that notice, but it is not always the case in India. Animators there pick up and leave on a moment's notice, just the same as studio management will throw people out on their arses in a heart beat with no notice, if they are not meeting quotas. It is a cultural thing...

Lizard, you do sound like a nice guy, and like you mean well, and have your heart in the right place... But you have to agree that in India, things do not work completely ethically, as much as you would like them to. Unfortunate, but just the way things work there, and burning bridges is not even thought of due to the PLETHORA of studios around the country and work opportunities.

"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

I completely understand that people would like notice, and it is customary here in North America to give that notice, but it is not always the case in India. Animators there pick up and leave on a moment's notice, just the same as studio management will throw people out on their arses in a heart beat with no notice, if they are not meeting quotas. It is a cultural thing...

Lizard, you do sound like a nice guy, and like you mean well, and have your heart in the right place... But you have to agree that in India, things do not work completely ethically, as much as you would like them to. Unfortunate, but just the way things work there, and burning bridges is not even thought of due to the PLETHORA of studios around the country and work opportunities.

well i have a bunch of guys who stick by me regardless. i think i treat them well, ive been told im better than a lot of other places they have worked at.

its ok, im over it. it dosent bother me. i put in an ad and i already got a bunch of responses.

wade, i studied in new york and london so my thought process is a little different. but i agree with what you say.

this goes on because poaching employees dont care about notices, so it all works out the same.

I am not in the business but I still think that some type of contract might be an answer. A person can not leave except under special condition or the prodject is completed.

I am not in the business but I still think that some type of contract might be an answer. A person can not leave except under special condition or the prodject is completed.

-

Who'd sign that kind of thing? I wouldn't want to be contractually beholden in a pseudo-slavery situation--I'd WANT to be able to retain the right to move onto something better ( or different) if I so choose. The concession is that one gives proper notice before they actually leave so that a replacement could be found, or a better offer given by the current studio.

The standard clause in most contracts is two weeks notice for the contractor, one week notice for the studio--but that is only if the contract is respected and enforceable.

This is why I've said before that contracts are lovely things.......if you can back them up. Otherwise they are mere smoke and utterly worthless.

Right now, from my perspective, things are HOPPING in the biz.
I've turned down two offers just today, and committed to a year long series a week ago ( and a "funny" story about this gig too--but that's for later). I'm expecting probably a cool half dozen offers from other venues over the summer, but I'll have to turn them ALL down. I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay outa town and that has usually meant a closed door to getting alot of work--not anymore.
There's currently not enough bodies to fill all the slots on some of these gigs, so its getting better for new talent.
One thing I have noticed is that the best talent is being socked up quickly for the most current gigs, and studios are still being picky. That's good, but it also means those folks that are already established can really pick and chose.
There's bound to be some more of those "abrupt departures" mentioned above happening all over as people shuffle to where the grass is greener.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

I am not in the business but I still think that some type of contract might be an answer. A person can not leave except under special condition or the prodject is completed.

This is not enforcable in the United States. Couldn't do it.

Isn't that more of a state-by-state issue?

I've seen places that have tried to enact unenforceable clauses in their contracts in North America. Things like lock-in clauses, performance penalties and such.
I'm not talking about the "benign" kind of thing like just insisting someone stay for the duration of the project, I'm talking about being contractually OBLIGATED to notify the employer if the worker just gets an OFFER from another company.
I've learned, to my chagrin, of immigrated colleagues working under performance-penalty clauses, when I wasn't subjected to them.
Scary stuff, like if they do not meet their weekly quota, the employers takes money away from them, in increasing percentages depending on what they did not get done.
No bonuses for doing MORE work, just penalties for getting less work done--and because I was born in Canada, I wasn't subjected to this. That's wrong, imo.

I've had contracts put under my nose that looked as if it were written by a Nazi--every stipulation about who owns what and what I create belong to the company etc.....
Of course, when someone is pressed about the thing, I was mockingly told "they don't really enforce it". So why is it in the contract in the first place--duuuuuuuuh???

I've done the spectrum of the resignation situation: from just getting up and leaving to giving two months notice in advance--and giving notice is, by far, the better way to go. I've left studios in the lurch, and left amicably.
I all depended on what the situation was. A couple times I did it wrong, a few times I did it because I had no other choice, and every once in a while I have made my exit with smiles.
Where I've left badly, I did so with complete understanding that I was burning a bridge.
That was the price for my exit, and its been one that, when needed, I've been willing to pay.
My advice though, for anyone reading this, would be to .........ahem........avoid that kind of history.

I understand fully the spot that Skinnylizard was put in, I empathize 100%.
He's actually in the better position in all this, because when the tide turns again (and it will) he'll be in the place to say no to the talent that have spurned him. Trust me on this, the biz DOES cycle. It might booming now, but 5-10 years from now?

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

I've had contracts put under my nose that looked as if it were written by a Nazi--every stipulation about who owns what and what I create belong to the company etc.....

Back in the early 90's, Bill Plympton was approached by Disney about doing some work for them. He said that in most contract negotiations, it's like a good cop/bad cop thing, but with Disney it was bad cop/antichrist... :D

I've heard similar things as well.
When I was working on "Cats don't Dance" at the end of the picture the studio was closing down and people were moving onto other studios. A friend I worked with was negotiating a contract to go animate for Disney and they offered him a lot less than he was making. It was embarrasing how bad the offer was. Their only rebuttle was that, yes it is lower pay, but he'll be able to tell all of his friends that he works for Disney!

Yuck!:(

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ILM has a similar reputation regarding pay, as does the LucasArts game arm of George's empire.

Their only rebuttle was that, yes it is lower pay, but he'll be able to tell all of his friends that he works for Disney!
Yuck!:(

I won't name names, but if you go on sites like Vault.com they supposedly have people who work at companies talking about the companies, and a very huge and popular place was described as "becoming more corporate over the years" and as a result "they know they can get people in with the name, and know as a result they can pay out less."

I won't name names, but if you go on sites like Vault.com they supposedly have people who work at companies talking about the companies, and a very huge and popular place was described as "becoming more corporate over the years" and as a result "they know they can get people in with the name, and know as a result they can pay out less."

I was hearing that these so-called "destination companies" ( where its assumed you go to make your career) have such high turn-overs they were really just way-points on the journey......and this was way back at the start of my own career. There's just no allure in something like that.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

There can be career cachet in having one of these "destination" companies on your resume, though. One of my former employers has been used by subsequent employers to impress or "sell" clients due to the name value. To me it's just another entry on the resume, but it matters a lot to some people (especially locations away from L.A).

All of California, or specifically LA?

actually there is no real harm in spending some time at a destination company because it does work on a certain level.

at the end of the day there are certain clients here for whom i would do work at cost just so i can slap their logo on my website.

All of California, or specifically LA?

I've found that having a "big name" studio on your resume tends to be more impressive to employers the further away you get from that studio geographically. Being an ex-Disney guy in L.A. is not a big deal, but being an ex-Disney guy in Sacramento is, for example.

Totally agree with you, I've had the same experience myself. When I lived in CA and mentioned that I worked at Dreamworks, they would ask what department or position I had, trying to guage my value at said company. But when I moved to Utah, I visited a studio and mentioned Dreamworks and I was immediately ushered in, no questions asked and given a tour and treated like a big shot. I was later hired by the company and yes, whenever they gave a tour to business clients it was always: "this is Ryan, he used to work at Dreamworks"!

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whenever they gave a tour to business clients it was always: "this is Ryan, he used to work at Dreamworks"!

LOL - yep, that happens a lot.

Before I went to my "destination" studio, I worked at a game company with a fantastic animator who went on to work at another "destination" studio. Later in my career our paths crossed again, and subsequent tours would include both of us and our "ex-" affiliations. We used to laugh and say "didn't you used to work at that game company?"

hmmm

where'd you work, Miracle Studios?

I purposely didn't include the studio name (either of them, actually) because it's not really important. No, I've never worked at Miracle, although if they weren't in Wisconsin I'd seriously consider sending them a reel. They're doing good work and I like that Tom's trying to keep traditional alive.

DSB is more of an "idea," really...some believe he works in all of us. ;)

DSB is more of an "idea," really...some believe he works in all of us. ;)

Some more that others... :D

I was later hired by the company and yes, whenever they gave a tour to business clients it was always: "this is Ryan, he used to work at Dreamworks"!

Hahahaha!!! When I was living and working in India for an Indian studio, the same was happening to me! However, the CEO, when bringing foreign clients through the studio for a tour, would call me over and say, "Wade... Walk in front of them a few times, and make sure they see you... Then I can tell them I have a director from Canada here". I felt so used... Almost violated :D

Cheers

"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

Hahahaha!!! When I was living and working in India for an Indian studio, the same was happening to me! However, the CEO, when bringing foreign clients through the studio for a tour, would call me over and say, "Wade... Walk in front of them a few times, and make sure they see you... Then I can tell them I have a director from Canada here". I felt so used... Almost violated :D

Cheers

:D

oh thats funny. this was DQ or Toonz?

funny stuff.