AnimationNation.com

Are we still talking about this? It's so last week.

AWN is great. AN is great. My opinion.

We've all have had posts and people we've disagreed with, but come on...we all love animation, eh?

Let's get back to drawing...I know I need to!

Splatman:D

http://www.animationnation.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=001592;p=2

Care to comment on that, Mr. Merriwether?

I'm not sure if you're pointing out my contribution there or just the general tone of things at large. In that thread I caught a tangent in my brain somewhere and pitched in my two cents without thinking it through too much. After that I decided to keep out of political stuff and focus on the art.

just some free advertising.
..and stop spelling my name wrong or I shall be forced to have this thread deleted...and believe me, I know just the sort of whimpering and whining that'll do it.

.

I, for one, shalll draw a bath... (giving off a bit of a pong here)

Drat! I took care to spell it right and I still goofed it up. No idea how that extra 'r' got in the mix.

My apologes, sir.:o

Hello.

I'm not sure who deleted what from the forum or this thread. I was alerted to this thread by the folks at AWN because of what were perceived as personal attacks.

I know most everyone plays well in the sand box.

AN is animation related so we can talk about it....just as we talk about the Disney Channel, Nick or Cartoon Network....

Thanks.

http://www.animationnation.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=001592;p=2

Yea, a thread that started out as a discussion, and ended up becoming a "personal blog" for preventing "disruption" by "accusations".
Cannot abide the tenor of the discussion so its censored to allow only ONE voice to be heard.

Lovely, just lovely, eh?
That one kind of sums up a lot of what I was saying.

After that thread, I kept wondering to myself why ANYONE would post in that forum if that kind of action was likely to happen at all. It just defeats the whole point of having a forum discussion at all.

Deleting a thread denies everyone their say--and it levels things back to the start, but locking the thread and then having ONE person go back in time and again to take their shots at whatever point, person or predicament is a slap in the face to anyone else that posts there.

just some free advertising.
..and stop spelling my name wrong or I shall be forced to have this thread deleted...and believe me, I know just the sort of whimpering and whining that'll do it.

Your whimpering and whining, or someone elses??? :rolleyes:

it seemed that people here at this forum couldn’t handle what was going on over there. Some folks I talked to thought it was jealousy, maybe it was the board’s strength, I don’t know.

The forums at AWN used to be an inspiration to me. Now it seems that you guys are what we used to be and [...] I’m sorry to learn of it. You guys want to be this way it’s up to you. Maybe there’s a few people around here who’ve got it together.

With all due respect, it would appear that some of your word choice only confirms what till now must of us could only suspect secondhand. You don't -have- to be careful about what you say, but it might be a good idea if the whole point of this is building up an image.

It occurs to me that a great number of the younger and/or newer people here will be unaffected due to unfamiliarity with your history and your situation, and those who -are- aware will likely already have their minds set. Even if they don't, and appreciate the cluing in, add them and anyone else who will care to a pile and, well...I care about what people think of me too, from time to time, but the number's got to be so small (considering how many people frequent here consistently) and the mindset at such an uphill climb, that to join up and fight seems out of the way, without cognizant purpose, a waste of time, and a huge ego parade, -especially- given that your joining has really been lurking in silence for two years. The reputation build for all the respect you'd like to pay to yourself and supposedly to these boards wouldn't been better spent attacking the issues as they came rather than waiting so long after the fact. Very few people are that busy, to not write a post now and then, especially when it affects topics they genuinely care about.

Welcome to the AWN.

.

you shouldnt let little things like criticism bother you..if someone has a difference of opinion from what YOU know to be just and American and right, then do what I do...shut down their account, label them a troll and bar anyone from ever mentioning their name again (under threat of their also being banned )..that's the mature thing to do

now, get back to helping to change the world with animation (start with Iran)

"Oh Brewster, you're so cool"....Fright Night

PS to Kenny D...I see I'm not the only one who received a letter from an AN Mod apologizing for his boss's erratic behaviour..paranoia must run deep over at Camp Pendleton

Yea, I guess if I was the sole recipient it'd just be a weak platitude or something sent my way, but if it's gone to more than one person, then its gone to more than a few. Meaning there's a problem that was acknowledged a long time ago.
That's kind of what I was talking about earlier.

And the quote you took about--I hadda take a peek at what Charles has written ( I have him on ignore)--and I see he's taking a swipe at Canadians.

Again.

I don't even have to work at proving my point--its all done for me.

I'm not sure who deleted what from the forum or this thread.

When a mod suppresses an animation-related discussion, there's no record of which mod deleted the thread? Anyone want to 'fess up?

I did a Google search for the thread and found the following link:

when's the wedding? - AWN Forums... AWN Forums > General AWN Forums > The Animation Cafe · Reload this Page when's the wedding? ... Last edited by mr. meriwether : 04-08-2006 at 07:39 PM. ...
forums.awn.com/showthread.php?t=5707

it was the whiny justification for leaving up the racist name calling..("That link was from September 11, 2001. Everyone was understandably upset" ) that gave me a giggle....so sometimes it's OKAY to be racist??!?!?

"here's another clue for you all..the walrus was (Pope) Paul"

Hello Charles. My names Erik Girndt, one of the moderators here. Welcome to the AWN Forums.

I'll ask you to please stop the name calling. If you want to address a previous post than feel free. But please do not insult other members here. There is also a Private Message (PM) feature which you can use if you want to address someone personally.

Aloha,
the Ape

I'll apologize for my lurking assumption, but I'm not sure why you'd care enough to rejoin a site and never post, nor why you say you're completely absent yet do not hesitate to form opinions on the present state of things here. Also take note that anything else that I said was based off of what I quoted, and thus can't be a prejudgement. Every opinion I have of you is based off of what you'd written in those three posts, I was trying to point out how you were coming across as a service. Sentences like

The hostility here isn’t a problem with AN. It tends to be with you guys making something personal out of a non-personal situation.

...how diplomatic of a point of view do you intend to develop with that kind of tone?

I want as little to do with an environment like this except for the community on AN.

Again, I have no grounds or bases to say anything about you, but having also read some of the opinions around here...knowing what you know about how some feel...doesn't this just propogate it? Your best tactic might be to try to address the "attacks on your image" without bias and without criticsm of the people from whom you are seeking understanding. It's part of the art of conversation, and it's in good taste.

Judging from the apparent ill-will between the AWN and AN communities, I bet this thread will fill up pretty fast. Being completely ignorant of AN's history, I think I'll sit this one out.

Lol, the way you get talked about here, Charles, I was starting to think you were some mythical beast from the underworld. It's nice to finally meet you in person.

Okay, let's see some fireworks!
Pooryorik

AN isn't my cup of tea, but it's a privately-owned site and they have the right to ban whomever they want for whatever reason, petty or otherwise. There are mods everywhere who will ban you from a forum simply for disagreeing with them (not saying that's what happened here), but there's nothing that can be done about it, so get angry, get over it, move on.

Hello Charles,

How are you?

I have been the moderator here forever...since at least 1999 (last century). You are welcome to hang here anytime. I too, use my name...

Personally, I have never said anything about you or AN...mainly, because I do hang here and dedicate my time to AWN. I don't think I have ever logged onto AN- because I didn't want to get into it with anyone.

And...neither Ape or Dan or myself approve of anyone who engages in personal attacks. Several folks will have been asked to leave or just barred for such behavior. We try to catch the chat here...but we get busy (this is all volunteer- no one gets paid) and sometimes things will slip through the cracks.

If anything come up let us know with a PM (like APE said) and we will take care fo it.

Many times folks here disagree - which is okay- as long as it's a civil discourse.

Sorry about any slanderous remarks... like I said...let us know in a PM and we will take care of it.

Thanks....

Am I going nuts or did all of Meriwether's anti-AN threads just get deleted from the forum?

Chuck, I guess you missed your opportunity to defend yourself against whatever those accusations were. :o

Thanks for the welcome Erik. I guess that reminder is meant for everyone here so the next time a thread pops up where the insults are coming in about my character maybe you’ll apply that warning a little earlier to everybody and move to stop it.

Were you ever registered on AN before, Erik? I think you might have been.

That was mostly for you Charles, but it was also to remind the other members as well. There were some heated posts a few months ago and it turned very personal. People were reminded to keep their posts civil. Since you are new to the forums, I wanted to let you know.

Yes I used to be registered on AN.

Aloha,
the Ape

Here you are trying to make me seem as if I'm some sort of bad guy because you think I can't engage in a conversational exchange. Look at the first post in response to my opening comments. What's that all about?

I don't know what that's about, I'm probably not the person to ask. As far as the "bad guy" thing, maybe that's how it was received, but believe me, that's not how it was sent or intended. There's nothing I can "try to do" because you're a complete stranger. Let me just put my only thoughts on this thread concisely here and then I, too will bow out since I have no further place in this conversation:

1) I was pointing out what I felt it was in your best interest to know, to help you get your message across. That was a personal, individual interpretation on my part. Perhaps I was off, but since I can't know that in advance, of course, it could be full of -mis-interpretation...

2)

--The animosity is all on your side of the fence.

--When this kind of stuff happens, all it does is reflect poorly on you guys.

--Newcomers to AN trying to be friendly would never go through something like this.

I hope you can see I am trying to be friendly by suggesting that there might be a more well-rounded approach to making your case. I was on the old AWN and I've clocked over 1500 posts on this one. Please trust me, as someone who has been here, when I say this: If there's anything icky said about any one person, yourself included, it's in the minority so no one will appreciate broad generalizations in an attempt to clarify and clean up misunderstandings. Your best bet it likely to deal with it on an individual basis, or if you have to make public threads, address those whom you feel are victimizing you specifically.

I removed both threads. I pulled the threads in total because to piece through and remove the truly inappropriate posts would have completely destroyed the thread continuity and context.

A bit of background: I pulled the threads in response to a note I received to review two threads that supposedly contained extremely objectionable posts. I get such notes from time to time and respond to all of them equally. The fact that this time, the threads involved AN and related individuals was immaterial.

After reviewing the threads, that evening I sent a private email to several individuals who had made posts within the thread, asking them to please help out and refrain from making such nasty posts in the future because they went far beyond what I considered the boundaries of fair criticism. I heard back from one person, and their response was fair and honest about their feelings on the subject.

The next day I decided to pull the threads completely. In my opinion, many posts within those threads went way beyond what I felt was fair criticism and were nothing more than really nasty shots at Charles personally. It is not an issue of free speech - it's an issue of responsible discourse in the AWN Forums about issues and topics of relevance to the community at large.

Charles is free to post on AWN like anyone else. I've known him since before AN started. I often don't see eye to eye with him on the issues. But in my opinion, his recent thread is not rooted in a desire to promote AN or denigrate AWN Forum participants. It's rooted in a desire to try and address some of what he feels are misperceptions and misunderstandings about AN, policies and his positions on certain issues. You're certainly free to doubt, question, disagree and even ignore my take on that issue, which is fine.

Regardless of what people think of him, AN, etc., the recent postings by certain individuals were completely uncalled for and have no place on this forum. With the exception of trying to diligently remove spam postings, there have been very few times when we've had to take such action in all the years we've operated forums. I realize in this case this action might not make some people happy, but I felt it warranted.

Dan

All I’m trying to do is set the record straight over the hostile fictitious stuff that’s being posted here. I’m doing it in the only way I know how by being as honest and sincere as I can with you guys in my own way of writing. After I’m done I’ll be out of here gladly.

So if you're only here to "set the record straight" and then leave, why bother? If this board doesn't matter to you, why should you care what people on it think about AN? Your dismissive attitude about "how things work" here on this board, in light of your admission of not spending any time here, sure isn't going to win you any converts.

It sounds to me like you're saying that anything negative that's been said about AN is fictitious. People on this board can visit AN anytime and form their own opinions, and it sure looks like there are several here who have had less than stellar experiences on AN. Frankly, that counts more toward what the average person experiences on AN than what you, as the site owner, have to say about what the site is like.

I had a long-standing account on AN, but chose not to join the "IE" for reasons of my own. Given how you've comported yourself in this thread, I'm more convinced than ever that my decision was a good one. Best of luck to you in the future.

I don't believe calling meriwether a "troll" was ment as a compliment. Granted there are far worse things to be called, but we're just trying to nip things in the bud before it gets any worse.

Like Larry said, we do this as volunteers, and sometimes the site gets busy and or we are busy at work, and things slip through.

Aloha,
the Ape

I was a member of AN for about a year or so.....and then ceased being so.
I used the alias of Arrow--I think......for my time there--I cannot remember.
I stopped being a member of that forum because of the treatment accorded some of my Canadian colleagues, by either the above contributor from said site, or his staff.
I know that these folks were banned soley because their comments were questioning and contrary to the site opinion on certain issues--at the time: the Independant Economy gimmick--and were banned with little or no provocation.
In one case, a poster I know personally simply asked about noted animator Dave Brewster and was summarily banned from the site. No reason given--just had his account closed.
At the time I also read several comments from Mr. Zembillas about Canadian animators that I found to be HIGHLY insulting and offensive. They were snide comments, made in a near-veiled attempt to hide what I read as contempt.
Whether or not the contempt is geunine or in jest, IT CAME ACROSS AS CONTEMPT.
I'm not the only one to hold that opinion either.

And then there was the manner of material written regarding Micheal Eisner......
I could care less what anyone's opinion on the man is, but a GREAT DEAL of the material written exclusively by Mr. Zembillas was pretty much character assassination in the gleefully disturbing extreme.

Its one thing when a forum contributor wields a sharp tongue.......but its quite another when the site owner spews that kind of venom......and purports to be a industry leader/representative as well.
I have said before.....that slant and the slant against Canadian talent on AN has made me a critic of the site. The comments from Mr. Zembillas above have done nothing to change my feelings on this.
To my mind, he's got his kingdom over there, and someone like me is over here--and that's balance.
I'm not interested in what he offers there, so I post here. And I will retain the same opinion about his site whether I post here or there.

I was informed/instructed to tone down some of my comments here, and I can abide by that. I've said what I wanted to say, expressed my criticisms and now have my feelings made fully known. It now public record.
I remain critical, but I believe I've also been FAIR in my criticisms. I've acknowledged the acclaim of Mr. Zembillas' school in the same literal breath as I've leveled critical opinion on his forums. What could be unfair or malicious about that? It falls into the perview of animation regardless, and THAT is what the discussion is here.

Is it percieved that I'm being malicious towards him? Like he was towards Micheal Eisner? I guess the shoe must be on some other foot now.

I contribute over here on these forums. I assist new talent, I share my experiences and insights, and on occasion, my opinions. If I like something I say so, if I do not, same thing--and moreso I say WHY.
On these forums, I am allowed to do just that--at least so far. I think its otherwise, elsewhere.

I don’t know what you’re so angry about DSB but your comments are typical of someone with an axe to grind and is looking for an opportunity to lash out.

If you're seeing anger, it's not coming from me. Why would I be angry when I decided on my own what I wanted to do re: AN?

You guys are under the assumption that this was supposed to be a financial avenue towards organizing a production.

That "assumption" comes from the original "IE" proposal from you and others on AN. Your first inquries about membership fees prominently mentioned creating a fund for independent short production, a fact you've avoided mentioning in this thread. Now, the "Independent Economy" is a means to defray the cost of running the site. If that's what you want to do and can get people to support that, more power to you, but you and I both know that the idea of funding productions was discussed as part of the original "IE" concept.

None of what we've achieved or have accomplished is considered in your opinion, as modest as those accomplishments might be in some people's eyes.

I'm plenty capable of speaking for myself, thanks. Please don't put words in my mouth. The fact here is that I've never made any comments, positive or negative, about AN's activities beyond the site, so you have no idea whether or not said activities are "considered" by me.

Anyone that wants to stay on AN in an unsubscribed status and tells us who they are is free to stay on.

Sorry; that's just not true. I've had an account (under another screen name) for years, during which time you've always had my name and email. My ability to post has been deactivated, and of late I hadn't been posting much at all in deference to your request regarding unsubscribed members. It's your site; you can do as you wish, but don't try to tell me things are one way when my personal experience proves otherwise.

Because of the generosity of our members, we had dozens of contributed accounts available for people to use but members don’t bother asking for them. You could have asked or brought it to our attention that you wanted to continue. Did you? Let me know if you did or let me know if you didn’t.

No, I didn't, for the same reasons I didn't subscribe on my own. I'm more than capable of paying $15 a year for a membership, and given my reasons for not joining, it would have been hypocritical for me to take advantage of one of the contributed accounts when it might instead go to someone who really needed (and wanted) it.

some of you guys are so hostile to anything like this that you cop your attitude and that’s it.

You show up on this site, tell us flat-out that you're going to have your say then leave, insult members here, and then claim that we're "copping an attitude"? Kettle, meet pot...

.

Dealing with [a forum] in this capacity for so many years is enough for me but if there isn't a problem with anyone here about it I'll stick around if you want.

This is the most interesting thread I've read on AWN in ages.
I say stick around and continue to resolve your differences. It's cheaper than a marriage counselor, n'est pas?

Maybe you can explain to us what an "Independent Economy" is and how subscribing to a web forum contributes to it.
To me, "Independent Economy" brings to mind self-sufficient tribes and ecovillages: communities that require absolutely no outside assistance.

I had (and I assume, still have) an AN account, and it wasn't dormant. I restricted my posting of late, per your request of unsubscribed members, but would occasionally chime in. I've been unable to post a few times before, with the reason given being "maintenance" when I contact AN. After the third or fourth time being unable to post due to "maintenance," one begins to wonder if it is worth it. My current "outage", btw, has lasted three weeks or more - that's some serious maintenance going on.

What I see when I read through my posts are opinions that are different than yours, expressed strongly (although not nearly as strongly as yours). If that's what you perceive as hostility, fine - nothing I can do about that. I'll say it again; I'm not angry. I'm comfortable with my decision regarding AN, but I'm not about to let stand statements that are half-true at best.

I do find these two sentences intriguing though:

"I have no idea who you are and here you make it seem as if you were singled out on AN. You made no attempt to take advantage of what AN had to offer."

If you have no idea who I am, then how can you possibly know whether or not I made an attempt to "take advantage of what AN had to offer?" I've had my AN account for over six years - I know what the site was, and I know what it is now. Please don't insult my intelligence further by trying to tell me that you know better than I do what my experiences there were, or whether I "took advantage" of AN's offerings.

AN is your site, and you're well within your rights to run it as you see fit. I've never said otherwise. By the same token, I and others are well within our rights to have our opinions about the site, based on our personal experiences. That seems to be where we part ways.

ill be quite honest here, i dont understand what the point of this thread is?

why are we discussing Animation Nation here?

i myself asked about AN before because i wanted to know what the forum was all about. Being in this Industry i like to get as much information as i can as well as interact or offer what little advice or help i can on my part.

There are trolls on any board, AWN so far has been quite good at taking care of these issues from within. Sometime things degenerate and i dont see a problem with it. that is life. Once someone proves they are only out to troll, they wont be fed and that usually leads to them dying off.

I am sure you think or have a great thing going on at AN. i dont see why you must come here and ask questions like what has AWN done, have they had contests etc.

Why should they? they do more than what is required, people go out of their way offer their help, its a community and it functions.

you go insult a member, someone else will step in even before the mods do. My experience with Erik has only been positive, i think the mods should be here to sort out problems that are getting out of hand, not go around being despotic (not that i am saying you are but thats what i have heard)

there are cool members here, HH,DSB,Pooryoik, KD, AA, Pascal,Saj,BSM and there is a pretty strong flow of information. i dont see why AWN has to compete or act like AN.

On most forums I've been on, they lock threads (meaning no one can post to that thread) rather than delete them completely; and before the moderator locks it, he posts a short explanation on that thread; e.g., "This thread is out of control," "This thread has gone completely off topic," etc.

The advantage of this approach is that everyone knows exactly what behavior they should avoid, and sometimes why.

Spam threads should still go directly in the garbage, though.

I like the housekeeping that Ape has been doing: moving threads to the appropriate forums, and starting a sticky (the school thread).
I'd still like to see a "How Do I Get Started?" sticky, which could cover drawing skills, animation principles, which software to use, flipbooks and pegboards, how-to books, internships, whether to go to college or not, the stuff that Saj has been building, and so on.

Why don’t you step up and tell people your identity?

Hello Charles...Welcome to AWN. I am certain you are aware of who I am, (the so called internet troll), dubbed this by strangers on a forum. I would like to say that your work at AN is indeed inspiring, if not...miraculous--but perhaps it would be prudent if you first...become a consistent active member before you address certain problems here.

It will do no good to reveal such personal information regarding yourself, because in the long run, there will always be someone who will find you...need I say: too good to be true. I strongly believe this was the case with myself--not certain if their attacks spand from envey or morose failures in their own being, nevertheless, if someone attacks you...you attack back.
I have not yet encountered a group such as these who are so imosing and some even impudent. That demand I show my personal self or leave....? I have told them time and time again, because of my age and location this cannot be yet known, but still, they insist.
I understand that this was my own doing and that I should stand the consequences despite ceasing this redicule (partially). But explain to me sir...what would you have done if a group of 12-16 internet 'people' (used as emphasis), demand to know personal details regarding yourself?
I understand that I may have 'kept the bush burning' but oh goodness, wouldn't you just leave me to my gloating instead of 'fighting talk' ?

I know I am not supposed to be here, but you....you are someone I've heard of, you are somebody...I respect. (no pun made)

By the way...............Welcome..and stay tuned for my book.

P.S Please don't share pictures Sadjera...they are still shrouding us in ambivalence.

I remember you Ken. You were Arrow and you insisted on your account being closed for reasons why, I do not know until now. I don’t recall making snide remarks about Canadians but my guess is that you read into it what you wanted to read into it. My experience with the Canadians on AN is that they are super sensitive and you really have to watch what you say. Sometimes my humor comes off the wrong way and maybe that’s what happened. I’ve also noticed that it’s acceptable for Canadians to make snide remarks about Americans, but not the other way around. That’s what we’ve experienced as far as AN is concerned. Regardless, that was several years ago and AN has matured a lot since then, but if you want to hold onto the past that’s fine.

As far as Eisner is concerned, I remember that and boy did I give it to him. I was pretty friggen angry about the hundreds of animation artists who were being laid off, about 2D being thrown out of Disney’s production, you name it. I was indeed way out of hand and after this had been brought to my attention by several members of AN I stopped doing it. I also apologized to the community at sometime about this but of course that doesn’t seem to count.

As far as the individual you mentioned, this thing got so out of control that it got to the point where I had to refer him to my attorney. The reason why we dropped the subject is that the situation was absolutely impossible. It was a misunderstanding on my part at a time when things were very hostile on the boards and I wanted it over with. When you want off the boards and insist on it, then you’re off the boards. When it gets so bad that I have to refer further communication to my attorney then you’re off the boards period. There was also something else going on at the time. I was dealing with the death of one of my parents and the illness of another. It was the wrong time to be attending to this kind of thing. An extraordinarily trivial matter in comparison. I still apologized and reached out, but that didn’t seem to matter. The decision had been made on their part and that's the way it went down.

There’s two sides to every story and I’m afraid that all that's been presented is a one sided version with the alternative being something that one may not expect. Maybe, just maybe, there was more to this than just me or AN. It was very unfortunate what happened but the final decision was not ours but we get blamed, or more specifically, I get blamed.

As far as your enjoyment of AWN is concerned, that’s great. If this is your community, then that’s the way it is. But when you were Arrow on AN that was a long time ago and just because you still harbor ill feelings doesn’t make the stuff that was going on around here right.

And maybe its all fair comment and perhaps some more introspection on your part is warranted?

I think the bottom line here is why should any of this kind of critical commentary be bothersome? You know there are critics of yours out there, you know there are people set against you and that they take shots at you.
In some cases they used to be a part of your forums, in other cases they are just outsiders looking in. If you booted them from the site, it didn't make them dissapear, it just excluded them from the site. Their opinions are still active--just as yours are.
Or maybe us Canadians aren't alone in super-sensitivity, eh?

Personally, I think you are, and always have, missing a sterling opportunity with your critics: that being rather than trying to quell them, to listen to them. Back when I used to post on AN, I was told BY YOUR OWN SITE-STAFF that they "needed to rein you in"--and honestly I haven't seen anything in you change in that respect. The way you have approached some of the posters in this thread supports that to me.

If you think that snide comments made in your direction are hurtful, then do not make them in return. If your sense of humour ruffles feathers, then consider a change of tact in that too. If you are going overboard in your opinions, maybe its time for a moderate approach.

Your presence this weekend and the comments that spurred this are indicative that those things I just mentioned do exist and probably need addressing. I'm a critic because I've yet to see any change in tone--and in fact, the tone at AN has become more shrill and political over time.
Honestly, I do not think there's been very much maturation in the AN forums since I stopped contributing there. If I had thought things had gotten better......I'd have re-applied for membership.

Your name wasn't picked out of a hat to hate, there's clearly been some offense taken from you, some patterns you've displayed over time that continue fuelling the negative remarks that have been made about you. It didn't just come out of the ether.

I also think that you may need to accept that the damage has been done and that no matter what efforts you take (or do not take) that rifts have been formed and closing them will be impossible.
Its no longer a matter of letting go of the past for some, the eyes they see things with will continue to see them certain way--that goes for both sides.

You might just have to live with an agreement to disagree.

Also, do not mistake my feelings/opinions here as "hate"--because its not. Its just plain ol' dislike.
I make, and always have made, some clear distinctions between the two. What you are reading from me isn't something to get a hive of bees into your bonnet about--its just one critical voice--apparently amongst others.

In any case, I continue to not be interested in what AN offers. There's only been.....what....3-4 threads here directed against the forum and Charles--in the time I have been posting here. Hardly a smear campaign of any sort. I've chimed in because.........well, I've had something to say on the matter. But now that its been all said in the clear, to all and Charles himself, there's really no reason for commenting further. If I'm asked directly, I do what I have always done, state honestly my feelings on the matter and leave the listener to make their own conclusions.

Me Me Me Me Me