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Overlooked or Undervalued Animation

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Overlooked or Undervalued Animation

Yes, it's this topic again. I'm looking for some recommendations.

I was reminded of this subject when some folks posted lists of their favorite European animation in the "most important animation" thread. There is so much great work out there that we never hear about because it doesn't have the luxury of a multi-million dollar marketing campaign, because it isn't in the mainstream of formulaic design or story, or because it's ahead of its time.

These don't have to be the world's greatest works.
Can you recommend some good cartoons that many of us have never seen or heard of?

Please provide links where we might purchase or view your selections.
And, if possible, please post image samples (screen-grabs or DVD covers).

Hey! Don't be dissing All Dogs Go to Heaven! Hehehe. There was only one sequel, and to be honest, I liked it better than the first one. Mind you, I am probably biased, due to having animated on the film. :D

Cheers

"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

Oh, I didn't know they stopped at #2 -- #2 was great actually, I want to see it again soon. I'd just assumed Fox had made an endless string of sequels, like they've done -- seemingly -- with the rest of Bluth's classics. :[

Didn't they even turn All Dogs into an animated series? Whew, pardon me for saying so but they really milk Bluth's successful 80s work in the worst way imaginable. (Can't really say anything about All Dogs because, believe it or not, I haven't seen the original movie yet.)
I wonder what "Bartok the Magnificent" would've looked like if the producers hadn't insisted on making it into a kiddie direct-to-video sequel. There were some nice characters in it which I really enjoyed, but if there's one thing that always draws me to Bluth, it's his darker themes, situations and characters. In Nimh, one of the villains murders the mentor in cold blood and gets killed rather gruesomely after an intense swordfight. Characters even draw blood. In Anastasia, the villain sells his soul to the devil on screen (it's not mentioned but let's have no pretence as to what "dark forces" he turns to) and crumbles to dust in the end, a minor villain in Titan A. E. gets his neck twisted by another character and even An American Tail has some rather intense scenes, like the Cossack attack or the bug swarm in the sewers, which I don't think would make it into children's features today.
If we're not dealing with "smart" situation comedy like in most 3D features, we're getting mellow and dumbed down preachy stuff. I really think animation needs an edge again, and I don't mean poop jokes and pop culture references.

Cannot agree enough about Watership Down and The Plague Dogs, everyone should go out and see them ASAP.

The stories/characters/themes are multilayered and timeless.

They are totally contrasting to Disney in all areas and stand as wonderful adult animated features.

Not only is the character animation superb, it's also at times stylistic (the rabbits creation scenes are amazingly based off Australian Aboriginal people's dreamtime myths).

The backgrounds in both films are nothing short of stunning, and there's plenty of them too. The way the english landscape is depicted is masterful, realistic yet painterly, sketch like yet atmospheric.

I saw Watership Down not long after Spirited Away and I think in many respects it's the more beatuiful film asthetically.

There is no doubt in my mind that the use of layers is perhaps the best I've seen, especially in The Plague Dogs. There are scenes from overhead viewpoints of the dogs moving about the forest which just blew my mind.

If anything these movies are directed more like live action films (Martin Rosen had never tried animated features before these) and is all the better for it.

As a piece of trivia you may be interested to note that Brad Bird actually worked on The Plague Dogs too.. that guy is seriously talented.

In addition to my recommendation of the movies I would also say grab the DVD's because they themselves are great. Really good video transfers and extras too, at least the Australian versions I have are.

The director's commentary with Martin Rosen is simply fascinating, we get to hear how he took the idea from start to finish and the huge battle he had financing/producing Watership Down at all. Also, the R4 Plague Dogs release includes the entire UNCUT version from Martin Rosen's personal vault, very sweet.

I also think Rock & Rule is cool, good fun/great animation and doesn't get much attention. If you like Blondie at all go hunt it down as Deborah Harry has one awesome, awesome song and vocal performance in there.

Satoshi Kon's Millenium Actress, Tokyo Godfathers and Perfect Blue are not under rated because basically every review online labels them masterpieces but they certainly haven't achieved as much widespread attention as they could.

He is my all time favourite director already, above even Miyazaki and Takahata and any live action film maker for that matter too. His series Paranoia Agent was the most challenging, interesting and compelling anime I've seen. That guy just keeps you on edge the whole way and is a genius IMHO. His stuff really stands out from the anime pack.

I agree with a lot of what's been said about Watership Down - except, I think it's a great movie for kids, not just an "adult cartoon". It's gory, it's got a lot of sexual tension at points, it requires a bit of thought to really follow...perfect for helping to bring up a more creative, aware child, whose got something in their head besides sing-along-songs and toy-advertisements. And traumatic experiences build character in children - all for the good.

You know, I may be stoned for saying this, but I've never seen Watership Down (and many other movies mentioned here). What's the easiest way I could get my hands on it?

hrm, i dunno if this is where i should list it.. but i like a lot of films by Bill Plympton and recommend them. :) i saw Hair High and Guard Dog at a screening he arranged for my school, and i really liked them, though i felt that he dragged out and milked the gag/gag pattern in guard dog. :( sigh, oh well, he does do most of the animating himself, so i kinda dont blame him for wanting to somehow make it longer yet reduce the amount of work. and i noticed he used a lot of cycles in it. in my opinion, a lot of his shorts from when he was in college are a lot better. lol, like ex. "How to Kiss" is really funny i think. check em out! if u like one, i know there's a compilation of his work on dvd and vhs! just gotta hunt for it! i duno where you'd find it though.. :( cuz i only saw in my school's film library.

enjoy!

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The reason I haven't seen All Dogs is that I've never really enjoyed any of Bluth's other movies. If it's better than Nimh, then I'll see it.

I love Dragon's Lair, but that doesn't really count. :p

You and I were both little, wide-eyed kids staring in horror at Dot and the Kangaroo back in the day, but is was Dot And The Mosquito that cast my youth into a turgid nightmare from which I never quite recovered.

I definitely could go for some trauma these days so I'll see if I can find it. Is it made in the same way Kangaroo was?

Bakshi's Coonskin/Streetfight.
Almost completely forgotten. It's got some pretty serious problems that some better storyboarding and, later, editing would've really helped, like a lot of Bakshi's works -- but there's a great deal in the film that's brilliant. The live-action film and animation are integrated very well, it comes off a lot better than it did in Wizards. And the scene where the Mafia Don and his wife dance is directed very, very well - and becomes even more impressive when one considers the very limited resources at the disposal of the studio. There's some great symbolism in this feature generally, too. I'm trying desperately to get my hands on a laserdisc edition of the film, but so far all I've got is a really worn-out SLP-quality VHS...and from my understanding the DVD's you can find Ebay are taken from this same SLP.

Edit:
I haven't seen Ferngully since shortly after it was released on home video, I was still in elemtary school. As a man opposed as a matter of principle to anything that has that much of Robin Williams' voice in it, I can't give an unbiased opinion. :]
Reading further into the thread, though, I caught sight of mention of Fritz the Cat. I would've mentioned this film in the thread - except I thought it was appreciated! Apparently not, however - and that's a shame, as I think it's Bakshi's best feature. It's got the tightest editing, some excellent mood-setting sequences (the crow snapping and dancing while "Bo Diddley" plays is just brilliant), and, though the animation varies greatly throughout the film, it always manages to convey what's needed for the scene. On the whole I'd say it's an extremely creative film that anyone who wants to make a good cartoon of their own should watch - to learn from the bad as well as the good.
I'd like to add another movie to the list of unappreciated animated features -- Rankin & Bass' "The Return of the King". I thank goodness that I hadn't read the books before I saw the movie, because anyone I try to discuss the film with seems to hate it for not staying true to them -- personally, I don't care for Tolkein. This film has a lot of problems, but a lot of special magic - and I don't mean just in terms of the magical world, I mean there's something virtually unclassifiable about the way the film is directed that makes it something special. The illustrations are at times marvelous (especially the backgrounds), even if the animation is, well, anime through and through. But more than that - there's something about the storyboarding, the pacing, the directing, that really pulls you into the tidal flow story...the way the story drifts in and out of song, and dreaming, it's all done in a very satisfying way.

I think this is the last time I bother posting my opinions, I go on too long. :P

I remember when I was a kid watching this movie called "Dot and the Kangaroo". It was animation over real backgrounds. I don't remember the quality of the animation or the story, just that the whole thing creeped me out and still lingers with me today. I saw it at Wal-mart recently in there $1 movie section and was tempted to buy it, but my hands just wouldn't go near it.

I remember Ferngully. I don't remember actually watching the whole thing, but by watching the commercials, I'd guess it was on par with anything else Bluth. I'd have to say just from watching just that little bit, it was far better than "Quest for Camelot" with that lame two-headed dragon (which I didn't watch either. Most of my experience with animation is Disney or television series. I need to broaden my horizons, I guess.)

Ferngully wasn't Bluth, unless I'm mistaken. Bluth is, in general, far too underappreciated, I think. I've never seen a Disney featured animated as well as Bluth's early films - NIMH, American Tail, All Dogs, Land Before Time...
There's just so much more vitality in his characters - little details of their movements and expressions that make all the difference. Disney's best is, in comparison, rather lifeless, rather dull - I can't think of any Disney feature that wouldn't've been better with Bluth at its head. I haven't seen any of his newer stuff though, maybe the quality lessened -- but the films I've mentioned, I'll stand by that statement. When I think of quality "believable" animation, I think of Bluth and not of Disney.

Hmm. I was mistaken, I guess it ins't Bluth after all. Back in the day, I figured anything that wasn't Disney was Bluth. Like I said elsewhere, I need to broaden my horizons.

To Wade K: I bet you hate the novels of Ernest Hemingway because they're "badly written" by the standards of classical literature. He wasn't a "genius" like Shakespeare, in your opinion, because he wrote in a simplistic, repetitive style with a lack of grammar.

I'd have to say I think Hemingway is overrated. Steinbeck was a much better writer during that same period but overlooked because Hemingway and stuff like Fitzgerald were garnering all the press.

Secret of Nimh I think is largely forgotten and overlooked.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

I loved Secret of Nimh. Were its sequel(s) as good as the original?

The sequel was some cheap direct-to-video thing. Like Land Before Time 18. And All Dogs Go to Heaven 6 1/2. That kind of thing.
I didn't bother watching it.

God, I hate the commericalism of United States animation industry. I can't believe they keep pumping out this garbage. But I don't doubt they make some decent money off them all, so what's to stop them. Well besides some dignity.

I will have to go with a Kroyer film... Ferngully. The marketing was horrible for this one, and it was tremendously underrated. I absolutely LOVED this film, and wish it got more credit. I am a tiny bit biased maybe, as many of my friends early in my career worked on this film, but... I still thought it great.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104254/

"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

I will have to go with a Kroyer film... Ferngully. The marketing was horrible for this one, and it was tremendously underrated. I absolutely LOVED this film, and wish it got more credit. I am a tiny bit biased maybe, as many of my friends early in my career worked on this film, but... I still thought it great.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104254/

Yuck. Horrible movie.

I'd instead suggest Frederic Back's The Man Who Planted Trees: http://store.videoproject.com/manwhopltrde.html.

Also, Isao Takahata's Omohide Poro Poro (Only Yesterday) is a wonderfully gorgeous and deep film that unfortunately Disney has no plans of releasing, though they have the rights to it: http://nausicaa.net/miyazaki/opp/. Some clips: http://www.buta-connection.net/download/videos_omohide.php.

Being the eccentric I am, I'd also reccommend Bruno Bozzetto's Allegro non Troppo, a pastiche of Disney's Fantasia: http://www.moria.co.nz/fantasy/allegronontroppo.htm

Yuck. Horrible movie.

Also, Isao Takahata's Omohide Poro Poro (Only Yesterday) is a wonderfully gorgeous and deep film that unfortunately Disney has no plans of releasing, though they have the rights to it: http://nausicaa.net/miyazaki/opp/. Some clips: http://www.buta-connection.net/download/videos_omohide.php.

I cannot believe someone just said Ferngully was a horrible film, and tried to top it with Anime crap. No accounting for taste I guess... That is like saying pooh tastes better than filet mignon.

"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

I'm glad you liked Ferngully, but I can't say I agree with you. It's one of my least favorite movies of all time.

Hidden gems:

Twice Upon A Time (I own it, heh heh heh)
The Man Who Planted Trees
25 Ways To Quit Smoking, or basically anything by Bill Plympton.
Lupo The Butcher
The Cat Came Back
The Miracle Maker

Twice Upon A Time (I own it, heh heh heh)

Oh, I can't believe I left that out! Was one of my favorite films when I was younger. Also, The Plague Dogs and Watership Down are underrated masterpieces of the animation medium.

To Wade K: I bet you hate the novels of Ernest Hemingway because they're "badly written" by the standards of classical literature. He wasn't a "genius" like Shakespeare, in your opinion, because he wrote in a simplistic, repetitive style with a lack of grammar.

That is like saying pooh tastes better than filet mignon.

only when he's covered in honey

Hehehe... Not that kind of pooh...

"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

I cannot believe someone just said Ferngully was a horrible film, and tried to top it with Anime crap. No accounting for taste I guess... That is like saying pooh tastes better than filet mignon.

F**k you, bastard. I hope you rot in hell.

F**k you, bastard. I hope you rot in hell.

Well that is mature... Just stating MY opinion, or can you not take it?

Also, please keep in mind that this industry is a very small one, and burning bridges like that is not really a good idea. Of course, that is assuming you actually WORK in the industry or ever want to, that is.

Wow... I just looked at your other reponses on the forum, and first off came up with this:

"Sounds cool...but I'm not an animator--just a teen who aspires to learn Japanese so that he can write screenplays for Studio Ghibli someday."

So that answers the first question in my mind. Good luck with that. God knows you are a master of colorfull language, so writing will probably be prefect for you. I am sure any monkey could write scripts for anime films, the stories being as compelling as they are, so no problem there either.

Secondly, in reviewing these responses, you seem rather taken by me. Have I affected you that much? Do you find me beautiful? You talk about me a lot, and seem to dwell on the fact that I think Ferngully was a great film, especially considering the budget constraints that they had in making this film... But then, being a "teen", living in your mom's basement, I don't imagine you have any idea yet what a budget is.

And lastly, it seems that you are quite the believer in Anime. To each is own. However, you cannot shun others for liking other stuff and thinking that anime is absolute crap. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, whether you agree with them or not.

Now grow up, and try to exhibit a bit of class.

"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

I watched two of your recommendations: The Tune and Allegro Non Troppo. Both were delightful.

Allegro Non Troppo was actually better than Fantasia. They got right what Disney failed at!

Now I'll have to find out more about this Bruno Bozzetto.

http://www.bozzetto.com/homepage2.htm

I'm just astounded that somebody out there actually likes Ferngully. It wouldn't matter to me if my mother worked on it, it was a horrible representation of the art. Bad story. Bad voice acting. Tired Robin Williams schtick (even though it was first, I was tired of it). Horrible music. Horrible villain that not even Master Tim Curry could salvage. Hippy tree-hugging message. Face it, man, there is just NOTHING to redeem that movie.

And then to slam the entire genre of anime in response? I don't believe in burning bridges either, but you're making it awfully hard to take anything you say seriously.

Dude, if you want to offer budget as an excuse for "Ferngully" then maybe they should have hired someone a little cheaper than Robin Willians and Meg Ryan to voice the leads, and spent the money on a screenwriter. Or a songwriter. Or catering, something.

Funny that you say "tried to top it with anime crap," then slam him for offering his own opinion... isn't that what you criticized HIM for?

I don't hope you rot in hell, but I certainly hope you never have any influence over one of my films, because I find your taste extremely at odds with my own.

I'm just astounded that somebody out there actually likes Ferngully.

I checked out the reviews of Ferngully (Rottentomatoes, Amazon, Yahoo movies, & http://www.fwfr.com/display.asp?ID=1959 ) and they are generally positive, so I'm going to check it out.

I'm genuinely interested in your opinion.

I'm genuinely interested in your opinion.

Okay, I watched Ferngully. You're partially correct. The music is terrible. (I fast-forwarded past all of the songs.) The story ain't great. The acting is not so good. A pro-conservation message would probably have been better served is they hadn't resorted to magical fairies. Further, the editing is sloppy and the characterizations are dull.

However, I disagree when you say "there is just NOTHING to redeem that movie." The actual character illustration is good. The animation is good. Most of the backgrounds are impressive.

That movie has much in common with Wizards. I'd have to rank Ferngully slightly below Wizards, which is watchable, but has its own flaws.

Horrible music. Horrible villain that not even Master Tim Curry could salvage. Hippy tree-hugging message. Face it, man, there is just NOTHING to redeem that movie.

Hey now, you gotta love a good hippy tree-hugger :D .

Hey now, you gotta love a good hippy tree-hugger :D .

There's nothing I like better than a macrame help halter top.

Hello Harvey

Hello Harvey,

How about the 1941 film by the Fleischer Brothers- HOPPITY GOES TO TOWN directed by Dave Fleischer.

Also- if you like Bruno Bozzetto -try his work at

www.flashtoons.org
Love his work.....

Thanks....

Has anyone mentioned "Porco Rosso" yet? Beautiful alternate past animation. Has kind of a "Cassablanca" feel to it. Romantic, funny, and some extremely beautiful visuals. This one tops my list of Miyazaki films. Definitely not your typical anime flick.

Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com

Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight

I've seen all of Miyazaki's features. If you like one, you'll probably like them all: 9 total, I think.

P.S. He also wrote and designed Takahata's Panda Go Panda, which is worth checking out.
It's somewhat similar to [i]Totoro.

[/i]

I've seen all of Miyazaki's features. If you like one, you'll probably like them all: 9 total, I think.

They all definitely have a style (and underlying themes for that matter). I was left feeling a little flat after "Princess Monoke". Maybe it had been talked up to me too much and my expectations were too high. "Porco" has a slightly different feel than the rest of his films, in my opinion. I haven't seen "Totoro" or "Kiki's" yet. I was waiting to see the new Disney release versions of them. Hopefully, I'll get a chance to see them soon.

Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com

Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight

Totoro and Kiki are his best 2, IMO.
I suppose I have troubles with all his story structures - maybe because I'm so conditioned to American-style movies - except for Totoro, which is one of the most perfect films I've ever seen: right up there with Toy Story 2 and Nightmare b4 Xmas.

(What's the common thread of all 4 of these movies? All were distributed by Disney [or Disney's Touchstone], but none of them were animated by Disney Studios.)

Just to back track a little, I saw most of Porco Rosso recently, I say most of because the friend I was watching it with really wasn't into it. I still want to find out what happens though!
I don't know if you get it over there but there's a show over here called 'Monkey Dust' it's pretty hit and miss really, has anyone seen it? It's only been in the last few years that the BBC etc have actually taken a risk and made homegrown animated sketch shows etc. The only thing is that I think they can be kind of lame, the newest one is supposed to be the British South Park but believe me it's not. The animation looks like it's done if flash and has a pretty interesting style so it's worth looking at but I'm not a fan of the writing.

How about the 1941 film by the Fleischer Brothers- HOPPITY GOES TO TOWN directed by Dave Fleischer.

Have you seen the Fleischer Bros. masterpiece Gulliver's Travels? Since it's in the public domain, you can download the full film here: http://ia300131.us.archive.org/1/items/gullivers_travels1939/gullivers_travels1939.mpeg

Ferngully. Well when it came out(and without seeing it) I immediately found it repulsive. I saw the ads and the posters and that's all I needed to know. I suppose it's the age I was at the time. Right up there with 'Captain Planet' as work I just couldn't find it in me to respect. I'm probably one of the biggest tree-huggers going, but any cartoon that targets kids with a preachy message is immediately suspect. It's very hard to do right, and probably shouldn't be done in the first place. Do you think kids enjoy any of the religious entertainment out there? I could go on and on, but it occurs to me that maybe my argument is slightly flawed, since all the old fairytales have some sort of moral or message, so I'll leave it at that.

Anyway years later, with slightly more discerning taste(I hope) I got to see 'Ferngully'. I sort of enjoyed it. Visually, it's a lot better than I expected. The animation is on a par with the best of disney. Backgrounds are a little 'air-brushy' for my tastes, but are colourful and serves their purpose.

It is very dated though, while the Disney films of the time are not. All the music is very dated, and even the whole idea of setting it in Australia, and having an environmental slant. Very early nineties. I didn't care much for the bland hero(though I could say the same about many of the nineties Disney heroes), that's always a problem, but the villain was fun, and at least he was a vehicle for some nice shape-shifting animation. Actually, I'm not sure having a personified villian is the best idea, since when it comes to environmental matters, there's no one individual who's to blame, it's us humans and our society. It's certainly not an evil spirit trapped inside a tree.

All in all, file this under films that I can enjoy for the animation and the visual effects and not a whole lot else. I'd place it roughly on a par with Pocanhontas and The Resucers Down Under, though it has the downsides of both those films.

That is a fair assessment, and a valid opinion. I agree with some of your points, and disagree with others, but hey... In this world, who shares the exact same opinions anyways?

One really has to appreciate the film for what it is... A low-budget feature from the early nineties, made by the same director as "Cool World" and "Fritz the Cat"... Two huge stinkers in my opinion. This film was made in a time that if it wasn't Disney, it would be snuffed out, much like Hinton Animation's "the Nutcracker Prince", yet another highly undervalued film from that time period. Disney snuffed it out in a big hurry... Siskel and Ebert giving it two thumbs down... Ever notice the logo at the end of Siskel and Ebert??? Looks like the magic Kingdom centered in the words "Buena Vista Television".

Thanks for your input, Anteater. I was feeling so alone. Hehehe.

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"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

I've got one

Not sure if this one was suggested yet, but I remember enjoying The Brave Little Toaster. Granted its been some years since I've seen it but I remember the story being rather good. Not to mention it has the voice talent of both John Lovitz and Phil Hartman.

The Brave Little Toaster IMDB

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