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Is anime killing a new generation's view of animation?

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Is anime killing a new generation's view of animation?

I grew up in the 80's era of wonderful animated movies and trash television animation. I sat in front of the television cheering on He-man and spitting out my fruit loops every time my fave ninja turtle cracked a joke about pizza. I cried when Little Foot's mother died and watched the Brave Little Toaster go cross country to find his owner.

Now I see what my little cousins are obssessed with. 90% of it is anime or psuedo-anime. Now don't get me wrong, I see movies like Akira and Miyazaki films and I think they are wonderful contributions to the medium. However, anime of this quality counts for about .5% of the gamet.

The anime I see on T.V. today (like Yu-gi-oh,Code Lyoko) are the equivelant to the 30 minute commericials I enjoyed 20 years ago. Has the only progression come in the form of an oriental make over?

At a recent animation seminar I attended, a disturbing number of would-be animators sited anime as thier main influence and intention of career. I'm not nay-saying a career choice, but one look through a couple of sketch books and I was not impressed.

My problem with anime is that it has too many rules. An angry character's face is supposed to look like this. A pretty girls eyes looks like that. Far too many kids had a thousand different characters drawn in thier books, all with the exact same stamped-on faces. The only indication of difference were varied hairstyles. The spirit of creativity is dashed the second they follow the rules to make sure it's anime.

I know fads and trends run thier course, but this one has me a bit worried. As I grew up, I was exposed to many different styles, good and bad. My little cousins refuse to accept any other form of animation. I tried to give em a healthy dose of Wallace and Gromit, but they got bored as soon as they figured out that there wasn't going to be any card dueling. Sigh.

i think the audience will judge what is good or not by choosing it, i think its a bit elitist to sit here and say what is good/bad animation or entertainment.

Now you're talking like an executive.

I love it when someone displays hypocrisy within a single run-on sentence.
You judge individuals, who directly determine quality, to be elitist.
You judge quality to be directly determined by popularity.

The public doesn't always know what is best.
Shrek 2 is the top-grossing animated movie of all time, but no one here is going to argue that it's the very best animated movie of all time.

Now you're talking like an executive.

I love it when someone displays hypocrisy within a single run-on sentence.
You judge individuals, who directly determine quality, to be elitist.
You judge quality to be directly determined by popularity.

The public doesn't always know what is best.
Shrek 2 is the top-grossing animated movie of all time, but no one here is going to argue that it's the very best animated movie of all time.

i dont see why there is hypocrisy there?

what is the greatest animation film of all time? who decides?

you ?

me?

or people who like something enough to spend money on it and set up fansites and make more of it possible?

Kdiddy you are right. but the thing is that our perspectives are a bit tainted coz we come at it from the animation perspective and sometimes forget the pure entertainment aspect of it.

just as an example have a look at the anime killing new animation thread....

u got someone saying miyazaki is crap and not good while you have people saying he is positively one of the greats.

so how does one pick? im not saying being populist is the answer or the right thing either. just that there are so many diff perspectives

i dont see why there is hypocrisy there?

Let's see if I can spell it out for you.

You say that people, who say that a film is good or bad, are elitists [i](which in itself is an extremely stupid statement, since everyone on earth judges things to be good and bad).

[/i]Simultaneously you have judged quality to be determined by popularity (quality equals money). You have set the criteria for what's good and bad, therefore - by your own definition - you are an elitist.

Half the world vs. one country? Oh wait, you mean the United States of America. From secondhand experience, never say things like that to Canadian border patrol. They're what you might call "sensitive"... ;)

Nobody calls Mexico "The United States of Mexico," but that's its name.

Canada is Canada.

The United States of America is America.

The United States of Mexico is Mexico.

I hope that doesn't hurt any Canadian's brain.

Let's see if I can spell it out for you.

You say that people, who say that a film is good or bad, are elitists [i](which in itself is an extremely stupid statement, since everyone on earth judges things to be good and bad).

[/i]Simultaneously you have judged quality to be determined by popularity (quality equals money). You have set the criteria for what's good and bad, therefore - by your own definition - you are an elitist.

dude, why are you so antagonised?

i merely made a comment that we sit here and argue around in circles without establishing any kind of criteria to decide the merits of a work.my precise point is that we judge.

i have spoken to people who found Polar Express to be great and then some kids said it was scary or stiff.

was it good or bad? how does one decide?

entertainment value? artistic merit? box office?

Hey, I had to have a post that was at least relevant to the thread.

I'm not a fan of Miyazaki simply because I don't like his character models. OK, I liked Totoro, but I didn't care for the design of the girls, or the girl in Spirited Away. I'm also not a huge fan of his bizarre storytelling. I don't mind "wouldn't it be cool if we put this in?" but I prefer things to have a reason to be there.

I also don't like John Kricfalusi's style of humor or Clasky-Csupo's artistic style.

I like lots of different styles, though. I liked "Twice Upon A Time" and "The Man Who Planted Trees" and "Lupo The Butcher" and "25 Ways To Quit Smoking" and "Knick Knack" and "Iron Giant" and "Prince of Egypt" and "The Incredibles" and "Wallace and Gromit" and "Corpse Bride." I like American/European shorts and I like American/European feature films, but for series, I prefer Anime because they play like long movies in pieces instead of small, self-contained stories.

There's not a single animated series created for American television that I would even entertain the thought of buying. OK, one possible exception being Batman, the Animated Series. I don't even own a Space Ghost DVD.

I guess that if you, skinnylizard, admit that you are also elitist when you determine quality, then you're not technically a hypocrite.

However, labeling people who like and dislike things as elitists is still extremely ridiculous.

i think its a bit elitist to sit here and say what is good/bad animation or entertainment.

[i]"I like animation. I don't like opera. Oh dear, I must be an elitist."

[/i]elitism: The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

Harvey, Harvey, Harvey! I love opera, and if the world could operate in opera mode there would be fewer murders....because if you have to expend that kind of emotion and effort, what's left?

Anime is ok, but it's not opera.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

I guess that if you, skinnylizard, admit that you are also elitist when you determine quality, then you're not technically a hypocrite.

However, labeling people who like and dislike things as elitists is still extremely ridiculous.

[i]"I like animation. I don't like opera. Oh dear, I must be an elitist."

[/i]elitism: The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

i think you got the definition but not the context of my elitism comment. it has nothing to do with opera, chauffer driven limos or beluga.

just the statement that anime is killing a new generation of animation reeks of elitism, that anime is not good enough.

i personally cant watch a lot of anime, but there is some stuff i have seen that boggles my mind. i can get to choose if its entertaining personally and i can argue merits, but coming out and saying things like Anime is the grail or it is not good enough closes a lot of doors.

Not that my opinion matters, but I think that most anime is horrible. Then again, most of everything is horrible.

However, to me, Hayao Miyazaki is the greatest filmmaker alive today, who, in the words of Paul Dini, "transcends live-action and animation."

The fact that his films are being shown on Turner Classic Movies every Thursday this month is testament to his greatness.

His storytelling genius is unparalleled.

His characters are vivid and full of life.

His attention to realistic detail is amazing.

His ability at creating new worlds is rivalled only by Tolkien, in my mind.

His animation is as different from the typical anime style as it is different from the American style. Such well-observed behaviors and actions, some of the greatest action scenes ever put to film, and the ability to "draft" frames so there is a feeling of space inbetween the frames -- "a succession of signs faster than one twenty-fourth of a second", to quote the Master. To paraphrase Norman McLaren, animation is what happens between the frames.

He is a treasure. Don Bluth doesn't stand a chance ;).

dude, why are you so antagonised?

i merely made a comment that we sit here and argue around in circles without establishing any kind of criteria to decide the merits of a work.my precise point is that we judge.

i have spoken to people who found Polar Express to be great and then some kids said it was scary or stiff.

was it good or bad? how does one decide?

entertainment value? artistic merit? box office?

That's what we're discussing! We will, in all likelihood, never come to a finite answer, and I don't think anyone reasonable really expects to. But your argument is basically, "The world is not black and white, so stop trying to judge things." That's silly.

The whole point of this thread (and forum in general) is the free form discussion on something as widely varying as animation. It's almost entirely based on opinion, but we all go into it knowing that. I really like Miyazaki, others don't. Opinion. Judged by me to fit my tastes. Judged by someone else that it doesn't fit theirs. Luckily, it doesn't mean anything more than I like it and they don't.

If you're coming here to do research and find hard, incontrovertible fact, and a good solid system to tell you whether an animation is worthwhile or garbage, you're in the wrong place. But if you're interested in taking part in a larger philosophical debate and willing to accept that there will never be a tautilogical (always true) answer to any of the questions that are brought up, then this is the place for you.

And we are a very important, again small, but important, part of the audience, even if we have a larger knowledge base of what we're watching. We are most likely to be the biggest fans, the ones who are most likely to buy the obscure DVD collections and series, and create fan e-mail petitions. No one of import may read this forum, so it ultimately doesn't matter, but our opinions on these shows are just as important (or unimportant if you prefer) as someone who doesn't know the difference between Bluth and Disney. We are part of the audience, whether the studios want us to be or not (I'd like to believe the good ones do).

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Just caught your last post, Skinny.

Yeah, it bothers me too when people say blanket statements, like "all anime is crap." But honestly, it's their opinion and they can have it. If they don't like it, then they don't like it. If they've only seen a handful of the anime shows on the WB and not given some of the other, higher quality films a chance, then it's just their loss. Maybe they've seen them too and still don't like it.

Funny you should bring up opera, Phacker. I for the longest time did not like opera. Couldn't stand it, but I also knew that I didn't know much of anything about it, so I didn't go around shouting how much I hated it. Until one semester in grad school I had the opportunity to take a class on opera. Figuring I really enjoy music from the Romantic period (1800's more or less), I thought maybe with some understanding I could actually enjoy opera. I took the whole class (only missing one for the flu), worked really hard at it. I did all of the readings, studied the programs, and listened to the music. We saw 5 or 6 different operas performed (none live...), listened to another dozen or so, including snippets of longer pieces. We had a pretty good sampling of opera from the 1600's to the mid 1900's. I did pretty well, too.

And you know what? I still don't like opera, but at least I know something of it to be able to confidently say, "I don't like opera, even though I have a little more than basic understanding of it." But I'm still not going to run around screaming that opera is the worst thing I've ever heard.

Opera, like anime, and all art is subject to the individual's opinions. Some people like it. Some people don't. Pretty simple. But it doesn't mean that we should stop talking about art. Some people who thought they didn't like anime (or opera) may not have been exposed to something that would change their mind. There's been a lot of give and take on this thread. Many people swinging between the sides of like and dislike conceeding and proving various points. That's all the point of the discussion. And I don't think that taking part in the discussion is elitist at all. Although, I would agree that making broad sweeping statements without reason is silly.

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just the statement that anime is killing a new generation of animation reeks of elitism, that anime is not good enough.

Yes, that sounds more like elitism; but it's a stretch to generally say that people who don't like certain things are elitists.

I guess the way I'd make the distinction is that if you don't like anime, but you have no problem with anime fans watching it on TV or in theaters, then you're not an elitist.
If you don't like anime, and you would like to see it taken off the TV and out of theaters so anime fans can't watch it, then you're an elitist.
If you're an animation professor and you prohibit your students from being influenced by anime, then you're an elitist.
If you have a gun rack on your shopping cart, then you might be a redneck.

.

.

Wow. Leave town for three days and threads can take some strange turns. :D

I was drawn to Miyazaki movies for the beautiful backgrounds, which are often more stunning than anything seen in nature. In this regard, Disney, Bluth, or everyone else pales in comparison.
I also watch Miyazaki movies for the complexity of the stories, situations, and characters.
The environments that he creates - Kiki's city or Totoro's woods - seem like places I would feel comfortable in, occupied by people I would feel comfortable with.

I don't watch Miyazaki movies to be challenged by the artwork or impressed by the character designs and animation. If I want those things, I usually look elsewhere.

Harvey, Harvey, Harvey! I love opera, and if the world could operate in opera mode there would be fewer murders..

Please, please, please, I'm not saying that I don't like opera. That was just an abstract example, hence the quotation marks.
It could have been any example: "I like apples but I don't like oranges." (Please don't write me any posts in defense of oranges.)

.

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Look, I don't have anything against oranges, okay? I have an orange tree in my backyard. But I don't understand what's with this "orange-mania" destroying our breakfast culture. How is it that this new generation just bashes apples. Oranges are just trendy crap.

Apple rhymes with crapple. Orange doesn't rhyme with anything but itself. Nuff said.

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"Door hinge"?

"Door hinge"?

Sure. It takes two words working as a team.

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Now with more doodling!
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i agree with Harvey and KD. maybe elitism is too strong a word....

and i think its def true that we are part of the audience as well, whether we can be objective or not is up in the air.

great discussion

cheers.

I really think anime appeals to today's youth because it's out there right now. But I think they they are still open to new concepts. Sailor Moon, Pokemon, Dragonball Z and Yugi aren't my idea of anime, but that's what the kids are seeing on Saturday TV.

I think one of the things that appeals to them is the pseudo realism of some of it. They think it's cooler to do something like that then SouthPark. They enjoy focussing on some of the details, like poses and eyes, etc. Especially the older kids want to think they are doing something really special. Like they are part of a special closed club.

There are alot of twenty somethings out there that love to say they specialize in anime style. And some of it is pure rubbish. Some of the better ones will eventually evolve into styles of their own, once they get bored with it.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Nobody calls Mexico "The United States of Mexico," but that's its name.

The United States of America is America.

The United States of Mexico is Mexico.

Almost. If you translate from Spanish it's United Mexican States. I didn't include them for a reason.

If you can't reverse the situation then it doesn't apply. I can say Mexico and mean the United Mexican States, but if I reverse America, that has more meanings than yours alone, since it could also imply entire continents (and one subcontinent).

EDIT: Also, just for awareness, the translation is consistent with international political and cartographic recognition, the CIA World Factbook, and for whatever it's worth, the Wikipedia.

Redneck love poem:

"Rozez 'r raid
Vilets 'r purple
Y'wanna come with me
To th' tractor pull?"

EDIT: Also, just for awareness, the translation is consistent with international political and cartographic recognition, the CIA World Factbook, and for whatever it's worth, the Wikipedia.

Hey! What do you have against Wikipedia!? :p

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Now with more doodling!
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I'm not a fan of Miyazaki simply because I don't like his character models. OK, I liked Totoro, but I didn't care for the design of the girls, or the girl in Spirited Away. I'm also not a huge fan of his bizarre storytelling. I don't mind "wouldn't it be cool if we put this in?" but I prefer things to have a reason to be there.

Funny - like her ponem or not, but I always thought Chihiro's face was a nice change from those Princess-Mononoke-type girls Myazaki's been drawing since Nausicaä. (Probably earlier than that but I'm not that deeply into his work.)

He is a treasure. Don Bluth doesn't stand a chance ;).

C'mon; that's not fair. Don Bluth never stood a chance...:D

The bizarre thing is that these movies all bear the name of a man long dead, and are presented in this "family values" context". I find it kind of creepy and morbid, myself. How can Hercules be "Disney's whateverth Masterpiece" when he's dead?

Do you feel the same way about Ford cars? Hewlett-Packard computers? Taco Bell? All of these (and hundreds more) are companies named after people who are either dead or no longer at the helm, yet these companies create new products all the time. Seems a silly thing to be creeped out over.;)

I find it rather interesting that this same token of good faith is not offered towards someone who loves The Ripping Friends and All Dogs Go To Heaven, because they are apparently considered to be "awful" and "crap", respectively.

If I recall correctly, your assessment of the Ripping Friends was that it "kicks all kinds of righteous ass." An opinion. I said it was "awful." An opinion. No one ever said "that show's awful, and you're an idiot for liking it, you fanboy you." You're free to like whatever you will and express your opinion about it - just as everyone else is. Your attempt to turn my comment on the show into a personal attack on you is dishonest, and it's sad that you feel the need to twist it in that way.

I'm convinced at this point that the whole issue is just a bunch of bullshit, just a bunch of stinky opinions, egos and junk politics and I refuse to address it, stoke it or involve myself in it any further. And that's the truth. :)

Except for the inclusion of the above paragraph, I'm assuming...?

Ugh. I was wondering when the next anti-anime thread was going to show up.

You say 99.5% of Japanese animation is crap.
Well, sir, 99.5% of any artform is crap. That is to say that most of us have specific tastes. What's crap to us is, of course, gold to many others.

You say Japanese animation follows too many rules.
Well, sir, western animation has its own set of rules that it adheres to as strictly as the Japanese do to theirs. We just dont' notice those rules as much since we're immersed in them.

I have similar tastes as you: I enjoy Miyazaki and Akira, but don't care for the rest of the "catalog."
Try to be a little more tolerant of other people's tastes, is my advise. [i]If you're not careful, you might learn somethin'. hey hey hey
[/i]

You say Japanese animation follows too many rules.
Well, sir, western animation has its own set of rules that it adheres to as strictly as the Japanese do to theirs.
[/i]

Not to put you on the spot or anything, but care to point out some of these rules?

There is no comparison to the variety in western animation (in regards to style) to that of Japanese Anime. What is art if it doesn't push forward in new unexplored directions? If it stays stagnant and regurgitates itself over and over then nothing is accomplished. Unfortuneatly, Anime will probably be replaced by a new beast in a few years that will end up being just as bad. Such is the way of the world.

I like some anime, and certainly appreciate its influence, but I must confess that I'm really tired of some of its stylistic conventions, too, which seem to me to be slavishly overused. Specifically, I'm sick of nonexistent noses and tiny little mouths which suddenly expand to engulf half the head of the character (normally accompanied by some wordless exclamation or gasp, which is a facet of Asian self-expression I've never quite understood), and strange spiked hair. Why is it, when everything else in the average anime cartoon is rendered so meticulously, do they use such odd looking and disproportionate shortcuts on the very portion of the onscreen image that will be under the most scrutiny? It makes no sense to me, and I see it almost EVERY SINGLE ANIME toon. They will spend more time rendering a schoolgirl's panties than her face. How Freudian is that?

Granted, there are oft-repeated conventions among a lot of Western animation, but it is also possible for even a layman to simply look at Western cartoons and say "This one was done by a different studio than that one". A brief survey of Western animation over the years will reveal a cornucopia of styles. I don't think anyone would mistake an episode of Batman for Bill and Mandy's Grimm Adventures or confuse Iron Giant with Aeon Flux. I can't say the same for anime. In fact, I really don't know why it is dignified with it's own pet name. It's simply Japanese animation, and it almost all looks like it was painted by the same hands.

Don't get me wrong, fans, there is some brilliant Japanese animation out there, and Western artists have to give props to the sensitivity to light and shadow and cinematic camera movement found in the best anime. But I think the Japanese could learn a thing or two from Western artists about character rendering and animation. And I really wish they would, because as compelling as the storylines in some anime are, I (and, apparently, many other people) have difficulty overlooking the grotesque character depictions and bad dubbing enough to enjoy them.

you know i personally cant stand to watch Anime of any kind. but then i cant watch most of the american stuff either.

have you seen Akira or Spirited Away?

now that stuff blew my mind, especially Akira. its not just about what it is, it is how it was made and what kind of a senisibility was used to make it.

personally i dont see the real difference between watching Beyblade or Xmen. Its all bout what entertains you personally.

There are alot of twenty somethings out there that love to say they specialize in anime style. And some of it is pure rubbish. Some of the better ones will eventually evolve into styles of their own, once they get bored with it.

True enough. I grew up trying to draw Garfield and Gi-Joe cartoons. I haven't settled on my own style yet (and I may never), but it doesn't look anything like Garfield or Gi-Joe. Imitation is how many get they're start into an artform.

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At a recent animation seminar I attended, a disturbing number of would-be animators sited anime as thier main influence and intention of career. I'm not nay-saying a career choice, but one look through a couple of sketch books and I was not impressed.

The biggest problem with that is that these kids don't realize one of the crutial abilities needed in order to becaome a successful animator,that being they must learn to become "artistic chameleons". They have to be able to adapt to any style whether it's anime or not. Some directors might throw a curve-ball at them saying "the style I'm looking for is kind of a late '20's Fleischer mixed with a mid '60's Jay Ward." If all the young animators coming know is anime they won't have a clue what he/she's talking about.

But, a loud fire and brimstone speech about the limitations of anime isn't a good idea. All this will do is frustrate so many people that could become great artists. They should instead just be gently reminded that they will have to learn to adapt (although maybe only briefly) to other styles as well.

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Well, the precise stylistic restrictions aren't anything new. Disney had its set of rules too, you know - there's Disney-happy, Disney-sad, Disney-lovestruck, etc., etc -- Kricfalusi's said all this stuff a million times before.
If it weren't anime killing animation for a generation, it would be things like Brother Bear or Pocahontas or whatever.
Meanwhile music's killed by MTV, literature's killed by a deluge of banality, cuisine is killed by dieticians and Dr. Phil - it's the times we live in!, a great cultural degeneration. ;)

Bottom-line?, though?, who cares?, what's it matter? In every field of expression or creation, it's always been the case that most people just plain don't "get it". Notable exceptions, ancient Greece and the Renaissance -- and, in the case of animation, from its dawn up until the 1950's. Generally, it falls to the precious few who do understand to work their lives away defying the general trend, producing works that last the test of time - and that's the best anybody can hope to do. You just can't realistically expect anything better than that for any field of art, and there's nothing that places animation outside of that.

The trend in animation /is/ towards this crumby anime junk - these kids who draw nothing-but will do just fine with series after series of Flash-toons for ABC or ToonDisney or Cartoon Network or Nickelodeon or wherever -- assuming that they don't end up drawing DeviantArt and working at Starbucks forever and ever.

I don't know - to exercise some self-control and cut my rambling out, I just think -- why care?, the same number of people who 'got it' before in the 60's, 70's, and 80's -- when you had just as much TV-crap as you do now -- will still keep 'getting it' despite anime. Don't worry about them, don't worry about Teamo Supremo and Dave the Barbarian and Proud Family and Yu-Gi-O, just do what you can, make something better than that, try to interpret Kricfalusi's example according to your own interests and style - that's all there is to do, regardless of anime.

Hi Gongoose, and welcome to the AWN Forums.

Well I loved 80's TV cartoons too. I would rush to get through my paper route every afternoon so I could watch GI Joe, Transformers, Thunder Cats, Silver Hawks and the rest. I saw a couple of episodes lately, and my god they were aweful! Horrible animation and writing equally as bad. Luckly I haven't bought the Transformers DVD Box sets, because I want to keep those childhood memories. I know that the real episodes can't live up to those memories. So I think children's TV cartoons of today are the same way. Your taste in story has gotten more refined. Your animation and art knowledge is more fine tuned. Oh and you're not 12 any more. Sure, a lot of cartoons now adays are anime or anime-esq, but that's just a cycle. When I was a kid it was all cutesy talking animals and suck, (Ducktales, Shirt-tales, Snorks, Chip and Dale's RR. etc) In a couple of years it'll be mutant space amebeas from Mars. It's like big hair and Members Only jackets from the 80's, it's a phase and they'll grow out of it.

As for rules... Every style has it's rules. PIXAR characters have overly large eyes. Anime has spikey multi-colored hair and eyes with 20 reflections in them, lots of blood, girant robots and schoolgirls in short skirts. Super heros wear spandex, Disney characters are curvy with great Panteen hair and burst into song every 5 minutes. Cartoon Network's characters are broken down to flat, graphic, geometric shapes, sports bar patrons wear hockey, football, baseball jerseys. Things with similar styles are always going to look similar. If they didn't they wouldn't be part of that style and most likely be another style, or less likely create a new style of their own.

Harvey's right, "What's crap to us is, of course, gold to many others." I don't get Code Lyoko, but I thought Power Ranges was fun. Yes I know PR isn't anime. But then again isn't Code Lyoko from France?

Yeah, I don't understand this hatered towards anime. I'm not a huge fan, but I find some good shows and movies, and I find some bad ones. Same with "western" animation. I find some good ones and some bad ones. I try to keep an open mind, some times it's closed by I try to watch as many styles of animation as I can.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

I like some anime, and certainly appreciate its influence, but I must confess that I'm really tired of some of its stylistic conventions, too, which seem to me to be slavishly overused. ... I think the Japanese could learn a thing or two from Western artists about character rendering and animation. And I really wish they would, because as compelling as the storylines in some anime are, I (and, apparently, many other people) have difficulty overlooking the grotesque character depictions and bad dubbing enough to enjoy them.

Agreed on most points, cherokee- especially dubbing. The style of anime has certainly become its own language of symbols. It developed as the fastest and most efficient way to animate emotions- whittling things down to the simplest form- and eventually became charicature.

I don't care for the super-mutated faces and huge eyes, but there's plenty to take away from the craftsmanship. Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust, Ninja Scroll, and foremost: AKIRA. The animation in these features blows my mind. I've yet to really get hooked on any series beyond Bebop or Berserk. I really can't get interested in crap like BUBBLEGUM CRISIS 2048 or whatever.

As for the western infulence thing... I'm not sure, but didn't the anime "style" develop from Western influences such as Betty Boop?

Hey! What do you have against Wikipedia!? :p

After reviewing this statement, I realise that my attempts at sarcasm may be mistaken for actual comments. I meant it more as an absurd addition to the argument. Wikipedia, like any source, is not without its flaws.

Once again, my attempts at sarcasm may have been lost on the net.... :( Thus the dangers of people not being able to see your impish smile while typing :p

What we really need here is a sarcasm font.

Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
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Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight

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wait...are you saying aqua teen takes more than five animators?

If it does...thats pretty sad, its like super simple.

"who wouldn't want to make stuff for me? I'm awesome." -Bloo

cartoons: harbingers of the Apocalypse?

That sounds so much like the tirades we sometimes hear - from dictators, religious fanatics, the French, and "snobs" - about the evils of Western culture.
(Apt avatar, by the way.)

The only times I hear about the evils of invading non-Western cultures are these rare occasions on this forum. It's really weird.

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Not to put you on the spot or anything, but care to point out some of these rules?

There is no comparison to the variety in western animation (in regards to style) to that of Japanese Anime.

I don't really need to educate you on the history of western animation. If you look at the animation done in the 1920s (Felix, Alice Comedies, Aesop's, etc.), you can see that most of it is very stylistically similar. This applies to animation done in the 1930s, '40s, '50s, etc.

IS there more variety in western animation?
Well, we only see the most popular stuff produced in Japan. We don't see the full spectrum. Anime-haters like yourself see the least of that spectrum. They're not digging for anomalies like Tamala or Yamadas.

When we're unfamiliar with a particular culture or race, all of them or all of what they produce can look similar to us. [i]
("All Asians look the same. I can't tell them apart. Also, all Asian cartoons look the same. I can't tell them apart either. Also, duhhhhh.")[/i]
When we're immersed in a culture, it's easier to notice the differences.

Yes!

What we really need here is a sarcasm font.

AMEN, brother.

I vote for this to be the sarcasm font. It's Comic Sans MS. It kinda looks like comic book lettering. Whoops, what that deliberate?

Follow @chaostoon on Twitter!

When I was a kid, I watched "The Flintstones" and read the "Peanuts" strip religiously. The stuff I drew back then looked like - surprise - "The Flintstones" and "Peanuts". It doesn't anymore, because I built on my early triumphs and diversified my skills.

I don't see any problem with young artists drawing in a style they like. It lets them feel good about their skills at a time where confidence is crucial. Eventually other influences may work their way in. Ultimately, the market will decide if they're employable or not. If they can adapt to the needs of a show, they'll get the job. If they can't, they won't. At that point, they'll have a decision to make about artistic growth, and every artist has to make it for him or herself.

I grew up in the 80's era of wonderful animated movies and trash television animation. I sat in front of the television cheering on He-man and spitting out my fruit loops every time my fave ninja turtle cracked a joke about pizza. ...

The anime I see on T.V. today (like Yu-gi-oh,Code Lyoko) are the equivelant to the 30 minute commericials I enjoyed 20 years ago. Has the only progression come in the form of an oriental make over?...

You may want to take a step back and try to look at it without nostalgia clouding your judgement.

I hate to break it to you but He-Man, Transformers, and Gi-Joe were actually 30 minute anime commercials. Look at the credits, look at the techniques: Anime. Look at the subject matter: toys doing cool stuff (and just a side note that the toys came first, not the other way around). Why do you think that Hasbro always advertised during GI-Joe and Transformers, and was listed in the credits?

Look at the style, prolonged holds with mostly just moving mouths, hyper frenetic action that relied more on moving backgrounds than moving characters, low frame rates. Do you think that Transformers were an American invention? They were adopted from Japan for American kids. The anime style was tweaked a bit to fit the American acceptance, but it was still anime. And actually reflected the style of anime at the time in Japan. The pseudo realism in Gi-Joe and Transformers shows up pretty clearly in Akira, Battle of the Planets, and robotech for instance. It was a popular way of animating anime then.

Things haven't changed, just your tastes. Those crappy cartoons were made for you when you were a kid. Now they're being made for a new generation of kids. Kids like junk, alot. They also like quality, but it isn't what they're looking for. They're looking for fun action with some bathroom (and food) humor thrown in. Of course this is a generalization, but for many, including myself, it has held, and will continue to hold true.

You've grown up some. Nothing wrong with that, but I think that nostalgia may be clouding your view of television animation from the '80's. I know it did with me. You might not want to go back and watch Scooby Doo, Transformers, Gi Joe, Thundercats, etc if they still give you a warm fuzzy feeling, it's best to keep it a warm fuzzy feeling. They were crappy then, just as cartoons for kids are now, we just didn't care.

Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com

Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight

Not to put you on the spot or anything, but care to point out some of these rules?

There is no comparison to the variety in western animation (in regards to style) to that of Japanese Anime. What is art if it doesn't push forward in new unexplored directions? If it stays stagnant and regurgitates itself over and over then nothing is accomplished. Unfortuneatly, Anime will probably be replaced by a new beast in a few years that will end up being just as bad. Such is the way of the world.

All shows have a specific look that they hold to and don't generally branch out from. American animation, ESPECIALLY in the 80's held to a very specific look (mostly because in television there were only a handful of companies producing new animation).

Anime has grown quite a bit. They were some of the first to use alot of 3d to accentuate and add to their animations, for instance. Anime looks different from that of several decades ago. Much of the character design in modern American animation is influenced heavily by anime. Limited movement, stylized eyes, low frame rates, for instance, with an American twist. Samurai Jack, Xiaolin Showdown, and Clone Wars are heavily influenced by anime.

Now there is a cultural difference in story telling between in East and West. There are some plot devices that we just don't get. This is often equated with poor storytelling, when in fact they're just telling stories that Westerners, especially, aren't going to relate to. Who cares if they were dishonored? Many of our modern heroes have fallen from societies good graces and do better being dishonored. In Japan storytelling, that's often equated with death. Basically, we can't and don't relate, even if we get it.

American animation (I'm talking TV, not movies) ignored framing and camera movements, aside from simple pans, for years, preferring instead to look like a stage play. Many shows still look that way. Anime on the other hand has been cinematic, even the cheap stuff, for decades. No wonder they're so influential with modern animators. They can tell they're stories and still be able to afford to tell more.

Anime took the limited style pioneered by Hannah and Barbera and made it cinematic. They took the cheap ass way of making animation and made it work for their stories.

You may not like it, but as Harvey said, if you keep your mind open to it, you might just learn something.

Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com

Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight

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