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HELP!-Crusty girl w/crusty style (Jon Luc Godard-meets-Ralph Steadman) which program?

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HELP!-Crusty girl w/crusty style (Jon Luc Godard-meets-Ralph Steadman) which program?

I'm an artist working on a live-action super 16 indie film. For the opening/closing credits and possibly throughout, we want to animate my simple line drawings (white on black) or titles.

Let me start by saying that I love these forums. Everyone's very nice and the Animated Ape guy has lots of great advice, and the Galaxy12 guy is like the spiritual sandpainter of the bunch. Phacker's tough and I'd hate to make her mad and run into her in a dark alley! ;-) (I'm afraid because I don't have any of the correct terminology down and NOOB nearly lost his boy parts because of the disagreement and I'm afraid for NOOB and now for me!)

So I've looked for an answer to how I'll approach this upcoming film project. It'll be rawer than raw. So crusty, ALL of you would kick my behind if you ran into me in a dark alley! All I want to do is something on par with Galaxy12's latenight drawings, but a little more Ralph Steadman style, with imperfect jump cuts. In L.A.-speak, let's say "Ralph Steadman meets Jon Luc Godard." (in said dark alley?)

So the key thing is that because of TIME, I want to use as much computer help in producing this raw look as possible. Not in terms of fake drawing, but in terms of actually putting it all together without scanning and so it'll "play" or flip for me. (flipbook program looks great, but only for Windows now)

(for a quick/cheap .gif example, see our site at www.MonsterGirlMovies.com)

One of my favorite animators is that Don guy from www.BitterFilms.com, so we're not talking Monet, here. All the perfectionist energy will be totally put into pulling this insane movie off.

But I don't know what "vector" and "x-sheet" mean. I understand the bone/skeletal movement of Moho. But my computer fantasy is that I can draw on an Intuos3 tablet (from info gleaned from the Ape man), and input this all into ToonBoom without scanning, copying, and can I just trace over what I did and erase the old motion??? I'm so sorry I'm not familiar with the terminology like tweeners and stuff.

But is this what I'd want if I want to avoid xeroxing, scanning, and want to use a crusty, hand-drawn animation style for web and ultimately FILM? (super 16 to be eventually transferred to 35)

So for drawing directly from tablet to screen and completing something, WHICH IS THE MOST SELF-EXPLANATORY/APPROPRIATE PROGRAM for a cavegirl like myself? Is ToonBoom the way to go? Or the Monkey program that Ape loves? Or Moho? (I think Moho may be too "clean" and Simpsons-y and I'm not having complicated movements that I don't mind drawing). Or even Mirage?

Money's NOT an object because I've learned I'll pay either way and I'd rather pay in cash than in time. But I don't want FinalCut PRO or something, because I might as well go for a doctorate degree, then.

I like the concept of a basic pencil-test type thing (like flipbook?) and I don't need backgrounds or any 3-D ever in the near future. I don't really need lip synching now (if it's already there, maybe I'll play with it in the future but not now). I'm intimidated by Flash, but that could just be that Phacker also intimidated me and I think she's tougher than I am! (smile) But then Galaxy12 uses flash for those elegantly simple animations...

see? I could stay here until menopause kicks in and back out again.

And is the 4x5 wacom tablet in graphis (?) or intuo the way to go? Cost and a tiny San Francisco apartment dictates a small size. "Large" men can't even come inside this tiny apartment and large-chested women have to stand outside and wave. So 4x5 is as large as I can go.

By the way, I'm buying a 15" powerbook for this endeavor, as my vaio crashes when i type an email now. I'd love a G5, but that space issue...

Thanks, I'd really love some of your expertise. No, I CRAVE your expertise and any direction anyone wants to give. I spent my entire weekend cruising this forum, shaking in fear, so pleeeease be gentle and don't call me an idiot! I've been an artist all my life and this computer stuff has got to be a timesaver somehow, right???

By the way: WHAT IS A "VECTOR"? AND WHAT IS "VECTOR-BASED SOFTWARE" AND WHAT DOES IT DO?

Thanks in advance for any guidance anyone might offer! (And please don't suggest I go to four years of school for an answer)

Fun post. I'm glad you like my stuff (I think). "Spiritual Sandpanter"... I like that.

My recommendations:

If you're just trying it out, get a Graphire. If you're going to be drawing a lot get a 6x8 (I'm pretty sure they make a Graphire that big). It doesn't have as many bells and whistles as the Intuous but if you haven't used one before you won't notice what's missing (and it costs about half as much which is great for just tyring it out). Check ebay and Craig's list, too.

You're correct, the late night stuff is all done with Flash as is Internal Cow's and Pascal's brilliant work (they're who inspire me...). It's fast and simple to use. It's vector (I'll get to that in a moment), which is great for the web and if you want to blow it up to a larger resolution (like film or print).

I don't know too much about Toon Boom, other than I didn't really like it enough to get into using it. Too many options for just doodling ideas out for me. It is cheaper, alot cheaper if you get the Individual(?) flavor of it, which may suit your needs perfectly. They have a demo of it for download (15 days limit, so you might want to wait until you get your tablet to try it out). It's also vector.

Vector graphics.... First let me describe Rastar graphics. Rastar graphics are images that every pixel has an instruction for it (color, alpha). Jpegs and bmps (bitmaps), for instance, are rastar images. They make sense for things like photos, where you're likely to have a different value for each pixel. And the tools associated with them historically were easier to use and a bit more like traditional mediums. The downside is that they can be big (file size) and require quite a bit of memory. There are compression schemes, like jpeg, that help combat file size, but you loose information. They're also finite. If you blow up photo, you'll start to see the individual pixels (the image starts to look blocky). Video, that you see on tv or the web, is a series of bitmapped images.

Vector graphics. Vector graphics are, basically, a series of instructions for the computer. Draw a box here, draw a line here. Rather than a list of pixel locations and colors, the computer gets a list of instructions on how to create the file. The disadvantages (and these are broad statements that have some exceptions):
-Difficult to make complex photo like pictures (vector better serves a simpler, illustrative style of imaging, while I've seen some amazing photo real vector stuff, I doubt it'd be a method you'd want to animate with)
-complex pictures require a faster computer processor (not a huge deal with today's computers, or with the style you're describing)
-extremely complex pictures can be larger than a bitmap (I'm talking extremely, so complex, most people won't ever get there, complex)
-The tools involved were historically a bit more "technical" although this has changed and there are a number of drawing tools that work much like traditional mediums

The advantages:
-Need relatively little memory and create small file sizes (why it's ideal for web animation)
-It's scalable. That is, you can blow it up to the size of a billboard, and it will look the same as on your 15" screen, because the computer just redraws it as needed. Great for print and film work (this part you may be interested in)

It may seem like there are more disadvantages to advantages, but those two advantages are HUGE. For example, a typical Flash file that I could output to film is under 1MB. If I were to do similar at film res on a rastar based image system, it would be 1MB per frame x24 frames per second (at least).

I hope this answers your questions or at least points you in the right direction.

Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com

Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight

Kdiddy's the man! Call him "kDADDY"!

Whoa! That was so amazing. Thanks. I'm going to cut and paste it into an email to my friends. I'd try and pass it off as mine, but they know me too well. That was a great tutorial. Thanks, Oh Wise Sandpainter.

By the way, I think you're so "all that," that I read your comment about the tablet and before I finished your posting, I went online and switched the 4x5 for a 6x8. And I looked on craigslist and ebay earlier, but I don't trust a lot of that stuff with warranty and all that. I'd rather pay with my visa and get that double-coverage and forget a killer deal that might land me a stomach ache. I've done that too much. And I hocked up the extra $90 to get the intuos3. I figure when you're already blacking out from paying $3k on a computer, why stop there?

I'm glad you found it helpful. I'm looking forward to see what you come up with.

Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com

Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight

first of all. u didnt even mention me. i protest.
anyway Ive used toon boom and flash. iVecotrs are the way to go i reckon and f i had to recommend id recommend flash. it gives you a little more flexibility in terms of working and saving some time. toon boom also has some zoom in issues (the lines get bigger instead of staying the same).
even if you want hand drawn id reckon u could quite easily do your drawings by hand scan, retrace in flash and then use em from there (i know you dont want to). u can just do ur keys and do the IB in flash.
i have something i did hand drawn and then coloured in water colours then retouched up in photoshop. but its like 400MB and i dont know how in gods name to get it down to size.

skinnylizard

why don't you load your video in Quicktime
then 'export' it using any of the available codecs?

you can choose which file size:video quality ratio
you like.

Don't worry.  All shall be well.

Whoa...huh????....

Skinnylizard sorry I didn't mention you but I'm reading this post and thinking it's probably because I'm so baffled by what you explain! It's like algebra to me. Okay, CALCULUS. And maybe "retrac(ing) in flash" is easier than the hellish nightmare it sounds like?

And I'm reading KUKUT's idea and will also have to look into "loading" video. Thanks you guys for your time and giving a darn enough to respond. That's really nice. It's up there with stopping to help someone fix a tire in the rain when you'd rather be looking up something else on line in a warm, dry home.

I feel really retarded right about now...

Thanks. Maybe I'll tell myself to forget the film and go to a four-year school!

Okay

Since I am horrible at math too , I'll put it simply. For what you're doing, use Flash and , yes, you should be able to do it straight with the tablet.

as for best way to do it, I'm not sure but ask Bluehickey. He does all his Flash animation with his tablet.

http://www.cartoonsolutions.com/

ah! Killjoy! You are ALIVEJoy!
Okay, done. Flash. And I remember "Bluehicky." That's one of the names I read a lot of posts from, along with the Skinny Lizard, who I neglected to mention.
I'm shy to contact Bluehicky now, so I'll cruise around again, looking for old posts. Maybe he already discusses this somewhere here.

But Flash. My filmmaker neighbor said that one of the animated scenes in "Kill Bill" was done in Flash.
Cool.
Thanks a whole lot. This is great!

But Flash. My filmmaker neighbor said that one of the animated scenes in "Kill Bill" was done in Flash.

Really? What scene?

And don't sweat being overwhelmed by all of this. It is a ton of information to take in. I've been doing video/film work with animation for almost 10 years and I still feel overwhelmed (and underinformed) at times.

Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com

Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight

funny, you don't seem shy

I'll ask Bluehickey if he can read this and respond. He's usually pretty helpful.

i'm glad to know that even YOU are still overwhelmed, then.

which scene in "Kill Bill"? She says it's the scene with the little girl under the bed. I vaguely remember it, but I think it was pretty dramatic and impressive. Didn't she come back and kill someone? Someone killed someone out of revenge and got blood everywhere...that could be any of those scenes. But i remember the under-the-bed scene with the little girl.

Hey, I went to Bluehickey's site, and looked at the tutorials. I'd like to start with a book, too--any particularly easy ones I might want to buy first? Bluehickey's got about nine or so in regards to Flash animation. I need the ones best suited to head injury Flash animators.

And Birth-of-Joy, that's really sweet of you. With my rain-soaked flat tire analogy, I feel like I'm in your houses drinking cocoa while you're out there changing the tire and milking the cows and other terrible things to do in the rain...birthing babies, mowing the lawn, etc.

You'll probably be able to do most of what you want just by playing around with the software. You'll have your shiny new machine, tablet and Flash, so you'll be all sorted!

Have you considered a Tablet PC though? A couple of people have just bought them here at work, and they are things of beauty. Drawing on the screen just feels so much better than my own Wacom tablet and laptop. Plus you can take it around with you. Plus PC components are much cheaper.

Take a look at Jason's blog. He talks a lot about them, and also posts some drawings too! There's even a section called Tablet PC

http://jonhandhisdog.com/shh-life-er/

yeah, i almost did consider a tablet pc, but i was already in a pool of sweat over considering a new computer. but like any good racist, i was afraid because it was new and unknown. so i went back to my own known mac neighborhood.

i read about the cintique and read some posts on this site that were like techno art erotica. but in the end, the good wife won out.

so i'll be on my mac n' flash. together this stuff is worth more money than my car, my apartment--and everyone else's apartment in this building, too.

but i've gotta say that i read a recent post about "camera moves" in toon boom and whoa...i waivered there a bit. but galaxy12's sand painter does a nice job with his own foregrounds/vanishing point stuff. i guess you learn that back in art school and you're glad one- and two- vanishing points were flogged into you. it was years before i could enjoy renaissance frescoes without shuddering and looking for the points.

i'm off for three weeks but can't wait to come back and read this stuff again!

Hi, sorry for the delay in responding, I've been really busy!

I use a wacom graphire3 tablet (4X5) for everything I do. I haven't used paper to create any of my art or animation for 3 years now!

Everything I do is drawn directly into flash with the tablet. I rough it out and then clean it up on a separate layer adding tones using the pen tool and deleting lines. I have a couple of web pages that show and explain the process. The first is on my Spoofs site:

http://www.starwarsspoofs.com/extras.html

And another in the "sample project" section of cartoon Solutions:

http://www.cartoonsolutions.com/anim_process.html

Hope that is helpful!

Flash Character Packs, Video Tutorials and more: www.CartoonSolutions.com

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