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The 2d is dead topic.

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The 2d is dead topic.

Theres always sum kinda debate going on *mainly on 3d forums* that 2d animation is dead.

I luv 3d,and i Luv 2d,but i for one don't believe that 2d is dead,as people know 3d is probably more popular now than ever,but some ignorant guys seem to always say 2d is dead,and that kind of dissapoints me.

Once 3d reaches its limits it will be in the same boat as 2d,and they are both different types of animation and shouldn't really be compared.

Some things don't translate well in 3d and would work better in 2d,and vice versa.

All i want to know is what are you guys opinions on the subject that 2d is dead?

2d traditional hand-drawn animation is not dead, but it is no longer the commercial animation medium of choice. There will always be 2d projects from time to time, but 2d will become a niche thing, like stop-motion has always been.

all forms of animation will become niche eventually.

look around you. at present 2d is broadcast 3d is celluloid.

yes i agree,but that doesn't mean its dead.

all forms of animation will become niche eventually.

not necessarily. 2d animation dominated the animation world for decades, and it would probably remained so had 3d not come along. It wasn't a case of it just being fashionable, it was just more flexible and better suited to a production line. What could possibly supersede 3d?

boredom maybe?

i seem to be getting a daily dosage of cg with every movie i watch,its gone from WOW that looks so real,To thats great

I've practiced sum 3d,and its really fun to model stuff,and even better seeing an animated movie with all textured characters,but then 2 weeks later u forgot about it.

i think the 3d world needs to focus on decent stories and not just effects,maybe make sumthing that will stick with you,all these old 2d disney films stick with you,i dunno,they just have something.

years ago people probably asked,what could supersede 2d?? ladies and gentle men,3d,so who knows what cud happened next.probably nothing,but i still think the 2d medium can be pushed somehow.

I think they will go back and forth ,back and forth until were all dead. :D

Yeah I would be getting bored with all the 3d films coming out, but visually, they just get better and better. The Incredibles overcame some of the problems Pixar was having with humans, and Madagascar looked a lot better than any previous Dreamworks 3d film.

I think in the last couple of years, people were just a little jaded with traditional 2d animation that lacked originality, and perhaps for the next few years, that will still be the case, and it will be hard for 2d films to fight that.

Eventually, CG films will start to feel less unique, and more the same, and the public may become less interested, and the films may start to decline, then there will be an opertunity for 2d films to make a comeback. It really depends on the artists out there whether 2d will.

At the moment we have a stop-motion comeback. The only reason this is happening is because there are people out there who still want to work with this medium. Stop-motion isn't likely to take over, but it's a viable artistic choice just like it always was. 2d is the same. But I don't see it becoming the mainstream choice like in the old days.

Jeez I hate these types of threads. They alway end up being a p*ssing contest between advocates of a particular "camp". Who gives a d@mn whether 2D is dead, 3D rules, or stop motion smokes both of them before lunch? Work the way you want to work, but live with the consequences.

If you're devoted to 2D and have no interest in working in 3D, fine. Have at it, but don't whine when you can't find a job because there is little 2D production out there these days and those jobs that do exist are being fought over by a large group of experienced people. If you think 3D is the best thing ever, more power to you, but fer cryin' out loud, that doesn't mean you have to denigrate 2D to make your point.

If it bothers you that no 2D is being done, then DO SOME! Be like our friend miracle_sets, step up and start a project. Get your friends involved, or some motivated students who will work for the credit.

I'm beyond tired of listening to people gripe about what the industry SHOULD look like. It is the way it is; either deal with it or work to change it. And posting on a board doesn't qualify as changing anything, other than the amount of bandwidth being used up.

Your mileage may vary...

Jeez I hate these types of threads. They alway end up being a p*ssing contest between advocates of a particular "camp". Who gives a d@mn whether 2D is dead, 3D rules, or stop motion smokes both of them before lunch? Work the way you want to work, but live with the consequences.

YES! Tell it like it is!

actually it hasn't really been a pissing contest at all. Maybe the trouble is that people will try to predict how things will turn out, when really if you just ask the question "Is 2d dead?" the answer has to be "no". The future will have plenty of surprises for all of us, but it's in our interests to try to anticipate it. I don't see 2d ever going back to the way things were in the nineties, when there was such a demand for talent and everybody was looking to make a buck out of it. That's probably a good thing. That's my view, but I still concentrate more effort on my 2d portfolio these days. You can't let the 'doom and gloom' discourage you.

if u hate these types of thread,ignore them.
This is a forum to discuss.

Ant-eater,why do u think it can't become mainstream again?

For the same reason I don't think black and white will become mainstream again. Personally I have no vested interest in which becomes mainstream, I enjoy both. Maybe, as one poster has said, 2d will continue to dominate tv animation, but that's not necessarily a good thing.

i wish they wud do more 2d/3d combos personally.

I think 3d has a few years to go before it really peaks out in what is possible for style and animation.

If you ask normal people, a lot of them don't even know there's a difference between 2d and 3d.

As far as money goes I'm pretty sure the industry will go with whatever is hot at the time. People get sick of everything sooner or later and need a change every once in a while.

A lot of people learn 3d to keep working in the animation industry and a lot of those stick with it because it's comfortable. If you want to do 2d sharpen your pencils and be willing to move a lot (that's what I'm doing at the moment)

If you like 3d or money learn it and do it.

2d is like music, it's better and more creative when it's underground. And hey, every once in a while the underground breaks the surface for a while.

it's been my experience that the people that say 2d animation is dead are the people that can't draw. There were a lot of people i went to school with that thought having to draw was primative or something. i think working in 3d and not knowing how to draw is like being a life guard that doesn't know how to swim. 2d artists will still have a place in a 3d world because you have to be able to convey your ideas on paper before you even look at a computer.

http://ben-reynolds.com
Animation and Design

it's been my experience that the people that say 2d animation is dead are the people that can't draw. There were a lot of people i went to school with that thought having to draw was primative or something. i think working in 3d and not knowing how to draw is like being a life guard that doesn't know how to swim. 2d artists will still have a place in a 3d world because you have to be able to convey your ideas on paper before you even look at a computer.

I agree, totally. Look at the guys working at Pixar. I believe they have regular life drawing sessions to help their drawing skills even more. My honest opinion is that 2D is here to stay. Right after releasing some animated 3D movies, Disney released "Brother Bear", probably to remind everybody that they have not abandoned that medium.

I also had a lot of experience working and teaching artists who are great with a computer but lack drawing skills. After a couple of stints doing digital animation (and after lots of fix-ups), they have realized the err of their ways and are now practising how to draw in earnest. Their animation have improved ever since.

Blog

My honest opinion is that 2D is here to stay. Right after releasing some animated 3D movies, Disney released "Brother Bear", probably to remind everybody that they have not abandoned that medium.

If only that were the case. Disney have shown that they have absolutely no commitment to the artform. If the films had been successful, I have no doubt they would still be in that business, but it was just so much easier to blame the last few failures on the medium than on their own incompetance.

it's been my experience that the people that say 2d animation is dead are the people that can't draw.

I think the reason for this is that they can't see the advantages or the possibilities that come with drawing. They can only see the drawbacks.

I think the reason for this is that they can't see the advantages or the possibilities that come with drawing. They can only see the drawbacks.

yeah, i agree.

were'nt all the animators for the incredibles originally 2d animators before coming to pixar to work with brad bird. I'm pretty sure that's what they say on the dvd, but I could be wrong.

http://ben-reynolds.com
Animation and Design

It seems kind of ridiculous to pose the question "is 2D dead" when there are like a hundred different 2D shows on television.

We just left a 25 year era of 2D film success that began with movies like Little Mermaid and ended with movies like Lilo and Stitch, and I think animation enthusiasts got a little spoiled by all that content. But there will always be 2D films in theaters, though they now have to compete with other forms of animation. Well, boo hoo. If you're going to cry for someone, cry for the stop motion people who have to be satisfied with like 3 features every decade, and one or two low-profile television shows (love that Robot Chicken).

Hey! Haven't you heard! Stop motion has been dead for YEARS!

not like we'll ever see any more of those old time movies.... and who the heck would go and see one anyway, not like there is a audience for it.

www.MattOrnstein.com
Character Animator - Lucas Arts

DSB i did actually read past your first paragraph,and in that first paragraph u complained about how u don't like these threads,yet u still gave your opinion,so u contradicted yourself without even knowing.And before you posted there where no flame wars,and there still aren't

*unless u include you and me,how ironic how u started the first arguement,heh*oh and look ,me and ant-eater aren't the only ones in this thread anymore.

I didn't post that to offend you,i posted that so you would listen and just ignore the post,if you don't want hear it,don't reply,its pretty simple.

don't worry be happy :D

........................

Matt, corpses bride (stop-motion) looks great,and i'm sure loads of people are going to see it,especially with Tim Burton on it.So stop motion is dead either.its just not around as often.

DSB i did actually read past your first paragraph,and in that first paragraph u complained about how u don't like these threads,yet u still gave your opinion,so u contradicted yourself without even knowing.And before you posted there where no flame wars,and there still aren't

*unless u include you and me,how ironic how u started the first arguement,heh*oh and look ,me and ant-eater aren't the only ones in this thread anymore.

I didn't post that to offend you,i posted that so you would listen and just ignore the post,if you don't want hear it,don't reply,its pretty simple.

don't worry be happy :D

........................

Matt, corpses bride (stop-motion) looks great,and i'm sure loads of people are going to see it,especially with Tim Burton on it.So stop motion is dead either.its just not around as often.

the reason it isnt out there so often is because Tim Burton spends atleast $15million on his stop motion work :)

the reason it isnt out there so often is because Tim Burton spends atleast $15million on his stop motion work :)

goddaaaamn,well from what i've seen from corpes bride it looks excellent,it almost looks 3d.

but 15million :eek:

I guess Corpse Bride has got a LOT to do with the marketability of Burton's name. He's been very busy during recent years and the fact that Nightmare Before Christmas attained cult classic status years ago should've persuaded more than just one suit to allow him to do it stop motion. Big names and earlier successes is data those with the money can use to estimate their risks and possible gains.
As for myself, Corpse Bride currently is the animated feature I'm most anxious to see.

DSB i did actually read past your first paragraph,and in that first paragraph u complained about how u don't like these threads,yet u still gave your opinion,so u contradicted yourself without even knowing.And before you posted there where no flame wars,and there still aren't

*unless u include you and me,how ironic how u started the first arguement,heh*oh and look ,me and ant-eater aren't the only ones in this thread anymore.

I didn't post that to offend you,i posted that so you would listen and just ignore the post,if you don't want hear it,don't reply,its pretty simple.

don't worry be happy :D

Noob, go back and read *carefully* what I said. I never once expressed an opinion about whether 2D was "dead" or not, so how exactly did I contradict myself in the context of this thread?

How did I start an argument? I posted my opinion on the topic and you responded negatively. If anyone started an argument, you did.

You didn't offend me - the topic is what bothers me. If you truly are a "noob", you may not be aware that this topic has been beaten to death here and elsewhere for YEARS. In that time, what has changed due to a lot of lip flap? Nothing. You'll have to excuse me if I'm tired of it, but I have as much right to post my opinion on the topic as anyone else here.

Thanks for your attempt at pointing out how simple it is to "just ignore it" - I'd point out that it's just as simple for you to ignore what I said if you didn't like it. But instead you chose to be confrontational. My comment wasn't directed at you for starting the thread - it would have been the same if someone else had. If you took it personally, that's your call. By contrast, you decided to directly confront me, and then you're surprised when I respond. Sheesh...

I should chip in more often over here but this damn project is killing me.

Anyways I cant keep myself posting from a thread which is all about 2D. But I will read all of the pages after saying what I have to say. :)

2D can never be dead. I often say to my team that every 3D artist is essentially a 2d artist.

Tell me if I am wrong but you just can not create 3d models without knowing how to draw a character on a paper with your pencil. You can not create a life like walk cycle if you do not know how to create a traditional sequence.

So 2D is and always will be the first step of every 3d artist.

so say with me "HAIL to the 2D"

BTW, as we are on the topic, it would be worth mentioning that I own 2dartists.com and 2dartist.com from quite a few years but my bad, I really could not been able to give time to it. If some one wants to give it a shot I can handover the control to him/her or that group.

lol hail to 2d!chodhry,if ur still want to get into a 2d community,my forum just opened a month ago,almost hit the 100member mark,would be nice to see u around there.

dsb,fine,u've made your point.i'm not goin to get into a second discussion.I really do not want to get into a debate,i just want to hear peoples opinions on the matter because i'm interested in all animations and animators themselves.

:D so i'm trying to keep it as peaceful as possible.

Wondering!

Hello.

If you talk to most folks NOT in the industry- they really don't know ( or care) whether an animated film is 2D or 3D. Most "normal" folks refer to THE INCREDIBLES as a cartoon. We in the industry want to split hairs.

I agree with DBS- if you want to do a 2D film do it- or a 3D film then do it- thats what I did.

Also, I can't help thinking that NOOB is trying to drum up business for his or her 2D forum.

At SCAD, I just heard that the CAS (Classical Animation Society) is changing their name to CAS (Contemporary Animation Society)- I think the whole 2D- 3D thing is silly.

I don't know how that forum link slipped under the radar lol

Also, I can't help thinking that NOOB is trying to drum up business for his or her 2D forum.

its not my intention for this thread no,but duh ofcourse i want traffic for my forum eventually.

thats why its in my sig,nothing wrong with promotion.

but it seems no one really cares enough to join anyway,so whatever.

if its not your intention then take the caps off your signature and make it a normal font size, we are all very able to read normal text. Plus you'll come off as more professional.

www.MattOrnstein.com
Character Animator - Lucas Arts

I've had signatures disabled in my preferences ever since I joined this or any forum and I don't understand why anyone would want to leave them turned on. It's just litter. They're no better than banner ads (excluding the wonderful banner ads that finance the AWN site: love that Turbo Squid, whatever it is).

NOOB has the right to put whatever he wants in his sig, and if it bothers you then just take charge and disable sigs or block his messages. Everybody's happy.

if its not your intention then take the caps off your signature and make it a normal font size, we are all very able to read normal text. Plus you'll come off as more professional.

Yep as usual someone leads a topic into something else.

C'mon, Noob; you gotta admit you were screaming there a bit in your sig. Why else would you change it after Matt said what he did?

Tired of this

Guy's there's no point in continuing to beat this dead horse. There are more than enough 2d vs 3d threads out here. Arguing about which is better won't do anything but turn friends into enemies.

Noob, I agree with everyone else about your signature. It's very unprofessional. As Matt said, everyone here is able to read normal text.

Anyway, could one of the admin do what should have been done long ago...closing this pointless thread?

P.s. I am sorry if I have offended anyone with my post. I am tired of threads like this and I'm sure other people share my fatigue.

"Animation isn't about how well you draw, but how much to believe." -Glen Keane

I just used this expression five seconds ago but count your blessings too..."no one" signs up yet it's full of posts and threads? Having that much of a population even if you think it's small is a big big task on the scattered isolated Internet. Believe me, I know scattered.

Kudos =)

DSB that sig has been that way for 3 weeks since i've joined and no one has sad anything,this is the first i've heard of it,thats why its changed....
......

back to the topic,why close it? this is AWN forums,i mean what are we supposed to talk about? what our favourite food is?

So far the only flames have been the people who have said *this thread is gonna end up in flames*

well congratulations now it has thanks to those people,oh the irony.

lock it.

edit:scattered,i meant no one from here,actually a few from here did sign up.anyway its only been there a month,not too concerned.

and i'm not meaning to offend anyone either bbtw :D luv makes the world go round guys.

btw i just saw this article on spawn at spawn.com that tlaks about 2d and 3d.

ANIMATION UPDATE

2D Versus 3D Animation
September 16, 2005
The current hot topic around the TME office is the third dimension or, more to the point, the 3D aspects of the Spawn: Animation, which is currently well into its production as you can see by browsing through any of our previous Updates. Our 3D animators at Film Roman/IDT are hard at work creating their portion of the Spawn: Animation, which makes now as good a time as any to discuss the differences between, two-dimensional and three-dimensional animation.

2D animation is a very repetitive and time-consuming process. It involves tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of hand-drawn and hand-painted characters and backgrounds to bring together even a short bit of animation. If a shot is not right or needs a few slight changes, it involves drawing the whole scene over. While all of the work and attention to detail 2D animation requires may be tedious at times, the benefit of such meticulous work is that it allows you to capture the smaller more intimate details of human emotion and expression along with the realistic elements of the environments showcased in any given scene. Such dedication to the finer points of movement and atmosphere is a key ingredient to the entertainment value of a project -- the reality you can infuse into the world you are creating, the easier it is for your audience to buy into the story you are presenting.

These qualities - fluid movement combined with life-like expressions and real-world environments - were first seen in the animated production of Walt Disney. The Disney animators used their talented and influential hands to help push the medium forward and mold it into a very unique and imaginative brand of storytelling (they were the first to create an animated movie to sync sound with Steam Boat Willie, and The Flowers and The Trees was the first full color animation).

Now, in a whole new era of technology, with 3D animation your characters, environments and props can all be computer-generated prior to laying out the scenes. This allows the animator or director to take any character, place them anywhere within the environment, light it however they like and even place the camera at any angle they desire. Thus, giving the creator a freedom never experienced in traditional 2D animation. In addition to the ease with which items may be manipulated, today's super computers make it possible to render entire models of characters and backgrounds in a small fraction of the time it would have once taken a whole team of animators to illustrate.

However, even after taking into consideration all of the benefits of today's 3D animation programs, there are some drawbacks to relying too heavily on the on the glitz and glamour of the latest technological advances. For one, characterizations are not as realistic as they are when created in 2D -- there tends to be "stiffness" when it comes to facial expressions and the intricacies of the human mouth during speech. As such, it takes caring hand and an eye for detail from the creators when it comes to determining when 2D and 3D elements are needed -- at time to compliment on another and other times simply because one works better to convey the essence of a given scene.

From the late 80's to the early 90's you can really start to see a boom in 3D animation and over the last 20 years it just keeps getting better -- growing, evolving, breaking new ground - as animators fine-tune their craft. In 1986 Disney's The Great Mouse Detective was the first American feature film to use 3D computer animation - the moving gears seen in the chase sequence are rendered in 3D. Beauty and the Beast, released in 1991, took what had been done five years earlier even further when it utilized 3D technology to create breathtaking movement never-before-seen in animation and became first animated movie to be nominated for a Best Picture Academy Award. Fast-forward to 2005 and with films like Toy Story, Shrek and The Incredibles bringing in huge numbers at both the box office and in DVD sales, 3D is not only the wave of the future; it is the here and now. Although, to get the most out of an animated world (unless you are lucky enough to have a 100 million dollar budget) you must have the ability to combine the old and new methods into something that can transport an audience from their world to the one you have created.

3D critics complain the computer generated characters fail to capture the feeling and realism traditional animation is famous for. 2D critics point out the time consuming effort it takes to draw every scene by hand. That being said, 2D and 3D producers have found that amalgamating the two art forms can generate the best product with the highest entertainment value, something that is always our goal at the McFarlane Companies. We are excited to once again be participating in the evolution of one of the world's greatest storytelling mediums and are extremely confident that what we have to offer with the new Spawn: Animation -- in terms of not only 2D and 3D presentation, but also story and atmosphere -- will be a welcome and exciting addition to animation's ever-growing library.

I've participated in several of these types of threads, both here and in various other forums over the years, and quite frankly my opinion has changed a lot over the years. So I don't think it's pointless. At least not any more pointless than any web forum topic. Sure the time would probably be better spent working on some fantastic animation project, but isn't that always the case.

The title of the topic, being "2d is dead" is addressing a certain perception that may be out there. It hasn't been a negative topic, like trying to prove why 2d is dead. It's more about justifying the continued use of it. 2d needs to find projects that it will benefit and approaches that work. I have my own view on this. I don't think the 'tradigital' approach is the way forward. I think that rather than imitate 3d, 2d should focus on it's own aesthetic. This is why 2d is thriving on tv. Shows like Samuri Jack and Spongbob Squarepants used all the advantages of the medium, whereas some of the last 2d theatrical features like Spirit:stallion of the cimarron, ignored this.

if u hate these types of thread,ignore them.
This is a forum to discuss.

Jeez, I thought I was discussing. You asked for opinions, right? If you had read past my first line, you'd have realized I was offering my opinion.

I'll let you and Ant-eater get back to your pointless conversation now...

I grew up watching "classic" and have always loved it. When 3D came along it was novel, it was cool - but in the end it can be just as formula and unimaginative as the mediocre classically animated bits. The difference really isn't as big as some like to pretend, and I am talking about both qualities and deficiencies
I guess the real trick is to not let people forget that classic has its merits, and a kind of appeal 3D can't emulate, just like classic can't copy the plasticity of 3D. And there really isn't much of a point in trying to, is there?

2d traditional hand-drawn animation is not dead, but it is no longer the commercial animation medium of choice. There will always be 2d projects from time to time, but 2d will become a niche thing, like stop-motion has always been.

stopmotion was never the norm like 2d was/is. it will be a while before 2d will die. i think there will be plenty of 2d work. the MO might change i.e. all digital etc. but the discipline itself cant die.