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2D vs 3D...

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2D vs 3D...

Hi

I am a student studying multimedia and after 6 months
of boring stuff, they are finally teaching me *a little*
3D Max and some Flash.

I want to learn to animate, but was wondering what the
options are for 3D vs 2D.

I love cartoons and want to learn to do 2D animations,
but dont have an artistic bone in my body. Storyboards
appeal to me greatly, i am an ideas man, but i dont know
if i can impliment those ideas properly to the screen.

So i thought maybe 3D would be better, but i dont really
like the 3D look and feel. Apart from *The Incredibles*
all other 3D animation and movies just dont excite me.

I think i like Incredibles because although its done in 3D,
it has a very 2D feel.

So my question is, If I decide to dump this very broad
course for a more specialised one, should i stick with
flash and 2D, or should i go 3D becuase of my lack of
creative skills?

What are my options for both, where could my skills *if any*
take me in the industry?

Thanks for any input...

Cheers
Harlequin

'but dont have an artistic bone in my body'

does this mean you can't draw? Don't make the fatal error of thinking 3d requires any less 'creative' attributes than 2d.

G.

Congrats, you just caused every 3d person in the room to cringe. :) 3d requires just as much artistic talent and especially creative skills as 2d. The computer does NOT do the work for you, and creates a entirely new set of artistic challenges. ItÕs just a very expensive pencil.

If you don't have a creative bone in your body as you say, perhaps you should consider a new field entirely.

Now having said that, I believe most people have creative potential, and with hard work and practice almost everyone can develop the artistic skills required for both 2d and 3d.

As for the incredibles feeling 2d, I think you are confusing that with "stylized and well crafted". At no point does the incredibles try to flatten the image, toonshade, or hide the fact its in a 3d environment, if anything it flaunts the fact that it is 3d. Brad Bird has said that the film would have worked in any medium, be it 2d or live action simply because it's just a great story. The only CG in recent memory that I feel really tried hard to look 2d was Sin City's, it actively tried to flatten the imagery. (but I guess you could call that effects CG rather then character animation). Well thats my 2 cents.

www.MattOrnstein.com
Character Animator - Lucas Arts

Yes by not having an artistic bone in my body, it does mean
i cant draw :)

Never said i wasnt creative, because why else would i want to
get into animation. :p

I have seen some great 3D stuff, not saying you dont need artistic talent
to do 3D, if anything i think you need MORE for 3D, hence the reason why
am confused about the future.

I guess i am a cartoon fan, and the incredibles was the closest thing
ive seen that gave me that cartoon feeling.

From what little i know and have seen, the 2D stuff really gets
me excited, 3D just isnt my cup of tea.

So my question still stands, for a person that has very little artistic
talent, but lots of creative talent, what is his/her best option in
the animation industry?

Harlequin

It seems to me you're a little confused about what you want to achieve. Is it animation or are you simply looking to get into the animation industry by using your existing skillset?

You mentioned the idea of storyboarding but without drawing skills you can rule that out. A storyboard artist need to understand a huge amount of things from cinematographic techniques and the rules that they abide by to clearly communicating the directors requirements to the animators.

If you want to learn how to animate, start by picking up some of the many good books there are out there and get educated about what skill sets are required to be an animator in either 3d or 2d (ultimately we are all one in the same).

If you are currrently doing a multimedia course then i assume you are technically fairly astute. You're gonna need to pick a medium to specialise in whether that be CG 3D/traditional/stop motion etc. and as you've hinted about you're drawing abilities i would recommend taking the 3D route if you want to make a living out of it. There are still some excellent 2D studios around but the majority are still using a 3d package - even to create 2d imagery!

The ability to draw certainly helps a huge deal when it comes to animating in 3d space but it isn't essential, you can still be an animator without having to draw although it does limit your skill set somewhat.

So i would think a little more carefully about how you want to proceed within the animation industry. Do some more reading, understand the industry a little better in order to make a more educated decision on how you want to proceed.

Stick with it and it'll be the best journey you'll make - its certainly the best industry to be in.

Good luck!

If you are currrently doing a multimedia course then i assume you are technically fairly astute. You're gonna need to pick a medium to specialise in whether that be CG 3D/traditional/stop motion etc. and as you've hinted about you're drawing abilities i would recommend taking the 3D route if you want to make a living out of it. There are still some excellent 2D studios around but the majority are still using a 3d package - even to create 2d imagery!

Thats the problem, they are teaching us a little of everything and
alot of nothing :(

I have to make a decision in what direction i want to go, and at the
moment its either concentrating on flash or going into 3d and using 3D Max.
(But i would rather learn MAYA)

At the moment it just seems like im wasting my time. I would rather
specialise in a field, and thats the reason for my post.

I would love to do all that fancy flash animation but because of my
lack of *artistic* skills i might struggle.

I have looked at alot of books and done some research, but if you
dont get any hands on experience, you dont really know what you will be good at.

Thanks for the input

Harlequin

Harl,

I'm afraid you've fallen into a common trap. You're assuming because you can't draw and produce images like the ones that appeal to you, you must therefore be artistically "untalented" (whatever that means).

The fact is, anyone can learn to draw. You have to be willing to put in the effort and learn how to think visually, but it is do-able. The more effort you put it, especially early on, the faster you'll improve.

Start with cartooning. It's fun and rewarding, and no one looking over your shoulder can say "that's not right", even if they couldn't draw it as well as you had. Christopher Hart has a series of books that are great starting points. They're easy to follow and he employs a simple style that's easy to follow. Try Cartooning for the Beginner or How to Draw Cartoons For Comic Strips. Both are great starting books. Once you're comfortable with cartoons and have some experience under your belt, you can move on to more realistic styles, like life drawing.

Artistic ability is about learning how to see (rather than look) and to get down what you see on paper. EVERYONE has this ability; the difference between those who can and those who can't is that those who can get there by doing. Good luck, and get that pencil moving
1

...

Thanks for those links DSB!

Now that is encouraging :)

I will have to make a trip to my local bookstore and order those books,
they look like exactly what i need.

Cheers

Harlequin

Glad to help!

The thing that's never discussed is that no one knows how to draw intrinsically. Even the best "natural" artists need some form of training, whether it's formal or self-directed. Sketching, research, etc - all is necessary to build drawing skills. If it weren't, why would art schools exist? ;)

Animation and drawing are a lot like music - the audience consumes the final result without seeing all the behind-the-scenes work (in the form of practice and study) that goes into the final product.

I think if you feel you are creative but you don't have drawing skills, the only thing that would most likely work for you is learning scripting for 3D applications or try your hand at script writing.

Lindsey Keess
Animator

Hi

I am a student studying multimedia and after 6 months
of boring stuff, they are finally teaching me *a little*
3D Max and some Flash.

I want to learn to animate, but was wondering what the
options are for 3D vs 2D.

I love cartoons and want to learn to do 2D animations,
but dont have an artistic bone in my body. Storyboards
appeal to me greatly, i am an ideas man, but i dont know
if i can impliment those ideas properly to the screen.

So I thought maybe 3D would be better, but I dont really
like the 3D look and feel. Apart from *The Incredibles*
all other 3D animation and movies just dont excite me.

I think i like Incredibles because although its done in 3D,
it has a very 2D feel.

So my question is, If I decide to dump this very broad
course for a more specialised one, should i stick with
flash and 2D, or should i go 3D becuase of my lack of
creative skills?

What are my options for both, where could my skills *if any*
take me in the industry?

Thanks for any input...

Cheers
Harlequin

Well.............after working 20+ years in the animation/cartooning industry and seeing the advent of the 3D medium, I can tell you bluntly that without sound drawings skills you will be at a disadvantage.

This has been argued around forums and teaching circles like this for years now, but the truth of it is that those will little or no drawing skills making it successfully in the industry are the exception and not the norm.

Oh, you can get a job in 3D alright, without drawing skills, but advancement?
Nope--not seeing it happening.

Drawing provides a lot more things than just pencil skills. Its a means of honing and refining the artistic intuitions about appeal, design and structure etc.
A 3D animator lacking drawing skills is like having a "chef" who is only good with fried foods.

I know a LOT of 3D students hate drawing. I'm teaching some right now that have awful drawing skills. I hear a lot of excuses. These are NOT stupid people. They are not "unskilled". They have simply never exposed themselves or their thinking processes to the POTENTIAL of drawing well, of what good drawing is and exploring how to emulate it. That sounds like some kind of an affront--and it is......in a way. If someone wants to draw well , they will explore it and achieve it.

I maintain to this day that animation schooling is a crutch--a welcome one, but a crutch nonetheless.
Students with nonexistent to poor drawing skills enter these programs with UNREALISTIC expectations of a possible career in animation.
It IS possible..........but unlikely.
I see most of them simply making the "effort" to draw--but not draw at a professional level.
The vast majority of my contemporaries emulated everything they saw drawing-wise. That started at a early age. Emulating line, shapes, forms, colours.........staging, compositions........a lot of the process was picked up by osmosis--until formal schooling came along for some.
I don't see that in a lot of students today. I see a LOT of portfolios with sport cars, elf princesses, ogres.......its meaningless.
As an instructor, I've gone from being a groomer of semi-skilled neo-talents to a patch-up/prop-up guy for non-talents. Yes, I know that hurts to read, it hurts to write it too.

DSB is correct though that drawing is a learnable skill. It takes time to learn, time to process in your head to make the associations that foment appeal, structure etc. But it can be learned.

I have to para-phrase ( and bastardize) a quote from Patrick Stewart's Capt. Picaird:" Learn drawing, painting, music, philosophy, history...and some day all this will mean something".

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

...

Ken, I agree with everything you have said.

If i want to get into animation, i really want to be able to draw well.

I see alot of other students that you have described, here in my class.
Its not really encouraging.

The course i am doing is only a multimedia course, but i really want to
get into animation because out of all the stuf they are teaching us
the 2D animation classes are the ones that really excite me.

I think that over the break and holidays i will buy some of those books
and spend a few months reading and practising and my drawing skills.

I really dont want to get into the field if i dont have the talent for it.

I think if you feel you are creative but you don't have drawing skills, the only thing that would most likely work for you is learning scripting for 3D applications or try your hand at script writing.

Thats exactly what i am thinking of doing next year. :p

Harlequin

Drawing is absolutely the most important skill if you want to hold a creative position animating.

However, if you want to go technical, 3D offers some options for those who want to enter the film industry but can't or don't want to draw. In particular, creating tools for others, particles, match moving, and rigging amongst others. While drawing will make all of these easier to do it often isn't necessary to do one's job, software literacy, programming and math are typically more important skills in those cases. But I have a feeling you weren't asking about one of those jobs.

Draw. Draw draw draw. And take some acting classes.

Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com

Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight

emm,this is a tough one..

I have been in the same position

...

I have been in the same position

What did you end up doing?

Draw. Draw draw draw. And take some acting classes.

Thats the answer i get form everyones posts, so i will be getting
all the books and supplies and be doing that over our summer break.

The more 3D i learn, the more i think it just isnt for me.
The more Flash i learn, the more excited i get, that should be
telling me something :D

If i do get into animation full time, i would really like to learn to animate
the traditional way. I gre up a Looney Tune fan and even now, some
20 years later, i still love those cartoons.

Traditional animation still looks soooooo much better than 2D computer
animation, but i am impressed with what flash can do.

I have read alot about the demise of the 2D studios and how there is not
alot of demand for 2D animation anymore, thats a real shame :(

I like 3D for what it can do when it is used with live action, but full 3D
animation movies still do not impress me that much (apart from incredibles).

Harlequin

sometimes it's good to know the distinction

between passion and talent.

i love music, always gets me high. i want to be a singer,
but i can't sing a note on key.

did learn guitar, which quenched my desires a bit.
but i shifted to drawing. i know my limitations.
no matter how i love music, i'm not meant to be.

so. been in the anim industry for 22 years.
love it. animating, storyboarding, writing.

when passion and talent meet, the path is clear.
you lead one life, and you love it.

when one is missing, you lead two lives.
one where you earn money, but don't enjoy.
one where you dream, despite frustrations.

know yourself. that's life.
there are questions which no one can answer but you.

and this is just one of them.

Don't worry.  All shall be well.

I'd argue that passion is talent. When you find that thing that resonates the most with you, it drives you to acquire the skills and abilities that will serve the end you desire.

For example, I'd love to be able to sit down at the piano and pound out my favorite tune. But I don't care enough about that desire to do the work necessary to make that a reality. I'd call this a fantasy, as opposed to a dream.

Now the drawing thing; that's another story. I had someone pay me a tremendous compliment on my drawing ability earlier this week, and I appreciated it immensely. But what he was commenting on, really, was the hours and hours and hours and hours (etc) of study and practice I've put in over the years to produce the image that he was complimenting. My passion for learning to draw led to the "talent" that he was admiring.

What did you end up doing?Harlequin

I don't know very much about 3D,but I'm going to take MAYA for class in fall anyway. I think the best way for me, is to keep on with drawing animation because I love it, and spend time,get familiar with 3D. You don't have to choose one or another for life time so why don;t enjoy both 2D and 3D...these are my thoughts..

You don't have to choose one or another for life time so why don;t enjoy both 2D and 3D.

Couldn't agree more. I've done both and continue to do both. The more skills you have, the more flexible and interesting your career will be.

Harlequin, boy do I have the perfect tool for you! If you are learning flash and getting excited by it, then you would absolutely love a "character pack". A character pack is a cartoon character whose body parts have already been drawn and broken down into symbols for flash and ready to be animated. Comes with side, front and back views, multiple hand positions, 7 different mouth positions for dialogue, 3 different eye expressions and an eye blink cycle which is already animated into the character.

You don't have to worry about creating the character, you just take him and start animating! The only downside is that our store is not yet up. Hopefully in the next week or so it will go live and then you can buy characters, props and even backgrounds.

Check out the website to see some amazing animations done by some AWN forum members: http://www.animatorsclubhouse.com

Here is a sample image, although the character actually comes with more than your seeing in this example:

Flash Character Packs, Video Tutorials and more: www.CartoonSolutions.com

I agree with what was said earlier about learning to draw is about learning to see. Break out of your regular curriculum and take a freehand drawing or a few life drawing courses. Even if you don't go on with animation, you will learn to see the world differently.

If you want to see in color, throw in a watercolor course. It's free it's loose, and it makes you see what is important.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

...

Thanks bluehickey , i think thats exactly what i need at the moment!

I can work on my animation skills until my drawing skills get better :)

I have been playing around a bit with flash and I am surprised at
how well it draws.

I actually want to create my images in Illustrator, because i do
better work with that program for some reason. :p

Harlequin

could be dsb

maybe there's only passion.
maybe there's no such thing as talent.
talent is just years and years of hard work.

talent-- as an in-born physiological and mental dispostion towards
a particular discipline-- could only be a misconception.

maybe i was just thinking of those who show various levels of
giftedness at an early age.
a child with a voice that could glide through notes,
an arm for a golf drive, an ear for improvisation--
even without extensive learning.

and those who abandoned their talents and didn't bother to let
themselves be discovered.

how many times did we laugh during American Idol
not that they don't have talent, but because they chose something
that was not meant to be

talent is what life gives us.
passion is what we decide to do with it.

when the two coincide, the path is clear.

Don't worry.  All shall be well.

maybe i was just thinking of those who show various levels of
giftedness at an early age.
a child with a voice that could glide through notes,
an arm for a golf drive, an ear for improvisation--
even without extensive learning.

To be sure, there are those who possess obvious "gifts". But they are the exception that proves the rule, and even they engage in some level of training to nurture their "gift".

But for every Mozart, there are legions of musicians who get there the old-fashioned way - passion and hard work. At the start of his career, John Lennon didn't know you could replace broken strings on a guitar. He was playing a six-string with only four until George Harrison clued him in. Yet there's no denying that Lennon was one of the best pop composers in history.

Michaelangelo and Van Gogh are acknowledged masters, yet even a cursory investigation into their lives shows that they studied extensively before creating the works for which they're famous.

All I'm saying is that if someone has the passion to do something, DO IT! Nothing would be worse than reaching the end of your life and thinking "if only I'd tried..."

I agree with what everyone here has been saying, and in no way am I saying that my character packs will solve all of your problems, but they can be used to hone animation skills. Learning how to move a character believably and naturally is essential to any form of animation.

I will keep you posted as to when the store is ready. In case you are curious, the characters cost $18, the backgrounds $12 and the props range from $2-$3. We want to keep everything very affordable.

Flash Character Packs, Video Tutorials and more: www.CartoonSolutions.com