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Adobe's takeover of Macromedia Flash: What now?

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Adobe's takeover of Macromedia Flash: What now?

Hello guys. I have been using Flash as a tool for 2D animation for quite some time now. I am intrigued by Adobe's takeover of Macromedia and what effect it will have on the program. Any thoughts?

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Someone tell me why this sort of timeline is better than Flash's:

Each component of a character is on a separate layer. You can do this with Flash if you learn to manage the "center" points. But then most of you have probably never messed with that either. It's a lot like rigging a 3d. Ask Blue.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

UNDO! Sort it out.

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I wouldn't expect much to change in the short term. But I've been wanting to see a global palette in Flash for quite a long time.

. You can do this with Flash if you learn to manage the "center" points. But then most of you have probably never messed with that either..

I know better than to respond to something like this, seeing as arguing about it is pretty useless, as I doubt that Macromedia (now Adobe) will actually ever read this or care, but I can't refrain....

I'm glad you like Flash so much, but you're assuming an awful lot. Yes, I understand "center" points, and the difference between shape and motion tweening, as does everyone here, I'm sure. Perhaps we're merely expressing our opinions knowing how to use Flash based off of our experience with Flash and what we've liked while using other animation software. Flash does alot right, but there are some things that other programs do much better, or take out the tedium of doing as compared to Flash.

Again, I apologize to everyone for even bothering to take up your time by posting this. And to prove there's no hard feelings and I'm finally ready to move on, I did this animation of a bouncing ball in Flash and compiled it in Photoshop a couple of mintes ago. Enjoy! :D

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Here's hoping to better drawing tools!

My comment on motion tweening had nothing to do with shape tweening. I find shape tween to be almost useless, and have only utilitized maybe twice.

Why did you have to compile it in photoshop? Flash does export gifs. Having trouble with your shadow?

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

I don't have any complaints for Flash's drawing tools except the line tool, and they had promised to enhance that in the 8ball edition. I think using the fancy filters and brushes becomes a crutch.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Someone tell me why this sort of timeline is better than Flash's:

It's a lot like rigging a 3d. Ask Blue.

Like 3D but a WHOOOOOOLE lot easier! It's only 2D!! It works like a drawing! (everything is a cheat)

In that image of the timeline there actually are very few keys. The non-black keys are simply a cycle (from Norman's walk-cycle) that continues for as long as you want.

I will say that Animo Vectors have a different approach than Flash. The idea is to allow the animator to continue to work on paper (for many people, this is still their favorite) and allow the assistant to do the rest of the work on the computer. Then go back over it with the animator and finalize the timing. Each system has its strengths. I just happen to prefer Animo. :)

-Steve

Having trouble with your shadow?

It's hand drawn, frame by frame. I thought it added some nice life to an otherwise boring computer-ized animation. Kind of Plymton-esque. :) I find that letting the computer do all of the work for you more often than not takes the life out of an animation. I'm sorry you didn't like it. :(

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Rip it in two!!!

...sorta.

I mean create two different versions...one for web designers, the other for animators.

Both designers and animators hate the wasted weight of "useless" stuff they wouldn't use anyhoo...thus creating a lighter, streamlined version for their own deeds?

Just a thought!

Splatman :D

Neeeat

Jeez , I hope that doesn’t stop the research time spent into Flash "8Ball" ( the one specially designed for Broadcast Animators) Glad to know things are happening, there is hope for flash-adobe users! More easier to crossover between the two soft wares. Will definitely speed up the process of work.

Guess we'll all just have to wait and see what Adobe has in store for us Flash animators.

Kdiddy, I didn't understand why you compiled it in Photoshot either, but we use what we know, so know worries. Nice ball bounce. My only comment is that it looks like it's driving down to the ground rather than just dropping. You also didn't animate the ball bouncing back up. The up is different than the down. So I guess there were two thing. :P

Flash is by no means perfect, but it is a pretty handy tool. I don't like Dr. Pepper, but tons of other people do. No problem, we're all intitled to like and dislike what we want.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

Most of the underground chatter says they are going ahead with 8Ball. I hope so.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

i have always thought that macromedia nd adobe would merge, their products are very similar anyway, tools layout etc...
flash is probaly the best and most useful graphics program i have ever used.

its mad to see illustrator have only just introduced bmp tracing, when flash had that option years ago

I haven't heard anything of 8ball. What is it?

Producing solidily ok animation since 2001.
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I actually tried exporting the movie as gif's, but it just gave me a pile of individual gif's. I took the individual frames and compiled them in Image Ready. I use what I know :) How do you export a single animated gif? I must have overlooked the option box.

The animation curves are off kilter (in particular the down), mostly because I'm not entirely sure how to use Flash's ease in/out function and wanted to see how fast I could get a simple animation out. Pretty quick as it turns out (under 1/2 hour, while figuring out Flash's idiosycracies and fooling around in Photoshop). Kudos to Flash on the speed of use front. However, its ease/in out is not very intuitive to a new user compared to a graphical representation of what's going on. I got results that are close to what they should be, but they're far from perfect. I missed the control and feedback that a graph gives you.

How's the down look different than the up? In physics, if the ball is returning to the same height each time (theoretically, that is, realistically, that won't happen...) it should leave the ground at the same speed that it approaches the ground. But I know that what is right doesn't always look right.

Do you mean the stretch leaving the ground (which is not in there, admittedly)? If that's the case, one could make a case for the ball stretching out as it approaches impact velocity (if only to account for a pseudo motion blur), then they would look the same. Perhaps, the main problem is, relying on computer's to do the work for you, takes the life out of an animation, and you're still better off doing it by hand, reguardless of what the program is.

Thanks for the input. Please don't read this response as sarcastic (sometimes that's misunderstood in the land of text). I'm seriously interested in figuring out how to fix these things and improve my animation (even on something as simple as the ball). Still learning, still learning....

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Here's a link to one of the many out there:

http://www.flashant.org/index.php?p=332&c=1

I hope you aren't one of those that get's all hot and bothered over the drop shadow filter, what the heck, if you can't make a drop shadow in Flash you have a problem that filters aren't going to take care of.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

In the export options under the gif tab, make sure you tic the animated option.

As to ease in and out, that's just something you need to play with a little more. Sometimes it makes a big difference other times you just need to adjust your number of frames. I am not sure what you mean about it affecting your curves.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

[QUOTE=kdiddy13]
Better control over keyframes (Flash's timeline is quite cumbersome)
QUOTE]

Just wondering what you find cumbersome about the timeline?

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

Sorry, I guess the term "curves" only really applies to a graphical interface to motions. Basically, in a number of animation programs like Maya or AE, the motion is graphed out over time, thus creating curves. A steeper curve means faster motion. A hyperbolic bell curve is a nearly mathematically precise (note: not necessarily visually correct...) representation of an object's arc as gravity takes effect. So, the ball's motion acceleration curve in this case is off. Pretty handy visual tool for tweaking an animation's motion and working out odd jumps and pops that sometimes show up.

And thanks for the gif tip. I'll have to look a little harder for that elusive box. That would have cut the animation time down to about 10 minutes. :)

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I sorta agree with Splatman and am secrectly wishing Macromedia would come up with a version exclusively for traditional animators. My wish list, among others, for this version is: no coding (which is useless when creating animation for tv broadcast), more stable and less crashing (especially when handling large files), and an option for the timeline to be viewed like an X-sheet ala Toonboom (great idea, kdiddy13).

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Well in Flash we add a motion guide layer which consists of a graphic arc and adjust the number of frames in the layers that are controlled by the motion guide layer .

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

I agree Ape. I don't find anything cumbersome about it. But then it is horizontal instead of being verticle like most traditionally trained animators are used to. But not being traditionally trained it makes more sense to me to be horizontal as in a "time line". But then that's just me. Flash is what it is, and I hope it never aspires to being a PS clone. I would like to have more control over my line shapes, but I can live with it the way it is also. I have MX2004, but I basically still work in MX. MX2004 is too unstable. I've tried it, it's not worth the effort for what I use Flash for. So if they want to add their components for those that don't want to learn Flash, and their little motion things, hey I'll stick with MX, until someone comes out with something that works as well.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Here's the tic:

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

I think that's why Macromedia lost money on this version. They paid too much attention to developers. They did away with the normal version of scripting they broke undo, and other basic options, plus they added their little spyware/activation/anti-pirating stuff that writes to the boot sector of your hard drive. They didn't listen to their user base. They were too focussed on their bottom line and thought they had the field cornered.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Thanks! I was doing an "Export Movie...", not a "Publish." That would answer why I didn't see the button. :o

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Just wondering what you find cumbersome about the timeline?

Actually, I think one keyframe representing all the values, rotation, translational, scale, line shape, color etc. whether they're keyed or not, makes it a bit difficult to tweak things after the facts or work on someone else's project. I prefer the After Effects (or even better Maya with individual channels!) way of dealing with things, where a keyframe represents one property and can be adjusted accordingly.

I'd also like a visual/graphical representation of the tangents on the in/out for any given keframe, not just a window with a couple of options.

Perhaps I just find it cumbersome when compared to other animation software. It's too bad that Adobe's Flash animation software never took off (funny I can't remember the name of it now), it's interface was much closer to AE. It just didn't have the web developing tools and programming tools. Perhaps it can head that way again.

And coding doesn't bother me too much, you can always just ignore it if you don't need it. Custom tools and actions can sometimes help solve some mechanical or repetitive animation problems. Although if your point is that they should spend as much time on developing animation tools as they do on programming, I couldn't agree more.

As long as we're on the wish list off-topic, how about being able to customize hotkeys for the way anyone works. This option may become very important for all the flash users as they start to change hotkeys to the "Adobe way." We all work differently, and with different software packages. It would be awesome if software developers started to acknowledge that.

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It was called Live Motion, and I for one know why it died. And I doubt that it will be resurrected. And you can customize hotkeys in Flash. You just have to know how.

As to individual channels if you use the layers as they were meant to be used that should be enough.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

In physics, if the ball is returning to the same height each time (theoretically, that is, realistically, that won't happen...) it should leave the ground at the same speed that it approaches the ground.

Don't forget that there are laws of physics which apply to theory even though they only represent real-world situations and don't quantify them with actual information.

In theory, in the laws of motion, when the ball meets with the ground surface it should lose some of its momentum from being halted from its original course at its original speed and then redirected. Incidentally, in the Real World™, a small amount of its energy from impact is also converted to heat.

All that aside, I think from a graphical standpoint Ape's comment also has some validity because it's always going to look better to animate everything, even if it's exactly the same, and even if the drawings are only slightly different, to avoid looking like a cut-and-paste job, or like you're missing a whole section of your anim.

Just curious...why did it die?

And Flash is lovely if you're doing traditional tests. I really can't imagine anything more simplistic, and the faded values on the onion skinning are a masterpiece for the history books of user friendliness. If you let me set them myself I couldn't pick better values.

It was called Live Motion, and I for one know why it died. And I doubt that it will be resurrected. And you can customize hotkeys in Flash. You just have to know how.

Resurrected? No, I doubt that, too, but perhaps take the best parts of it, like a more detailed timeline.

Hotkeys... Whooops. Old complaint that they've since fixed. And for anyone interested, it's under Edit -> Keyboard Shortcuts... Duh! (slaps head) You're not giving anything away, are you phacker? ;)

As to individual channels if you use the layers as they were meant to be used that should be enough.

Sounds like a hack to make up for not actually being able to do it. But then again what seemingly obvious task in any program doesn't end up being a hack? Especially Flash. There's no doubt that I've seen people tricking Flash into doing some amazing things that I'm sure the developers had no idea it could do.

I guess that's the main point is that since Macromedia bought it and the unfortunate timing of the Dotcom boom, it hasn't had serious time put in to further develop it as an animation tool (which I believe was the original intention of it). Hopefully, Adobe will step up and take such a large audience into consideration as it continues to devop it. :D

Why did Live Motion die? My guess: A number of factors. 1. Flash had a huge market share already. 2. No real interactivity to speak of, at least not compared to Flash. 3. It was clunky as a first version compared to Flash's 4th version at the time. Or, the obvious 4. Darwinian Law of Software. It just didn't work so people didn't buy it.

How close am I?

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Hey Kdiddy, so very very rough fast ball bounce explination. I understand what you mean about the ball being the same to get back to the same hight, but like Scattered said, sometimes what Physics says is right and what looks right isn't the same. I just roughed out some stuff real quick in Flash. So on the right is the bounce back up. It actually comes out of the squash quicker than it does going into it, and my theory for this is that it has to overcome gravity to make it back up to the starting point. So it need kind of like escape vellocity. So it shoots up ALITTLE faster, then gravity starts catching up to it, stops it's vertical motion, then starts to pull it back down again. Thats my Ape logic on the thing. :P It also breaks up the animation and makes it more visually interesting.

Also Flash for what ever reason names their Ease-in/Ease-outs backwards. I have a little post-it stuck to all my monitors with the little chart that I drew that say EI...100 EO Flash. Hopefully Adobe fixes that. Hopefully some if any of that helps.

Aloha,
the Ape

Oh, you should be able to export an animated gif from the "Export movie" menu, but it might depend on what version of Flash you have.

Attachment 

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

In theory, in the laws of motion, when the ball meets with the ground surface it should lose some of its momentum from being halted from its original course at its original speed and then redirected. Incidentally, in the Real World™, a small amount of its energy from impact is also converted to heat.

Warning: Absurd theoretical physics discussion to continue.

Actually, if I may dork out for a moment, and I remember my physics classes, the ball won't loose any momentum from the mere contact and changing of direction with an immovable object. With out heat, wind resistance, friction, or any number of other outside forces, it could theoretically bounce forever. I believe that's covered in the laws of conservation of force. It isn't until the Real World starts to exhert outside forces (most notably friction) that it will start to loose any energy.

But then again. It's just an animated ball...

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nothing is "just" an animated ball! :P

Oook

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

nothing is "just" an animated ball! :P

True enough :D

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Nor is friction "just" real-world. Last time I dealt with physics I was in the 11th grade, so take that into consideration. I am not saying it's one thing or the other, rather making somewhat assertive statements based on what I think I know. To me though...

Gravity occurs in reality as well but we have a theoretical constant for it. As far as this discussion is concerned, the mere fact that we're using Law is at odds with Theory, by definition. So me confusing the two helps nothing. :)

Conservation just says you can have as much change as you want, but no creation or elimination of the energy. Input = output. So applying that, no longer theoretically, the energy to fall goes in, but it only comes up partly as high because of the friction, which in turn gives off a little energy as heat. It loses the energy to match the input from having given off that heat.

Going back to your example though, all those things removed...How do you have a ball make contact and remove the friction from that? The contact would be the friction, wouldn't it? It would have to approach the ground and just meet one or two molecules of it at an incredibly slow, hovering, just-knicking meeting, playing a cosmic game of tag, and then for no sensible reason decide to come back up.

Then again in Erik's example the ball has character and "overcomes" gravity so it comes back down to "resemble the real world, and then caricature it for your purposes." But in no world, toon or otherwise, do I think ups and downs should be copies.

You also have to realize Flash was designed as a "vector" program and as such has no need of channels. For you bitmap/raster fanatics, get used to it.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

Zen question of the day: If a ball bounces on paper, does it create friction?

Or, is there a point when "copies" are good enough?

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Zen question of the day: If a ball bounces on paper, does it create friction?

Only when animators disagree over the mechanics of animation.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

More Zen questions: If a ball on a website that no one looks at bounces, does it loose inertia?

If people analyize frame by frame a simple animated ball, does it make the lack of a graph editor or x-sheet in Flash any better?

If a long drawn out, off topic thread about nothing in particular continues to go on, will people continue to post to it?

Perhaps we should start a new thread about bouncing balls, and everyone can show off their best balls loop. :D

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If a long drawn out, off topic thread about nothing in particular continues to go on, will people continue to post to it?
:D

As long as it's interesting. (Afterall this is the cafe and things are a little more free form here.).

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

My Zen question:

If there have already been several threads posted on the same topic previously, why would someone start a new one instead of replying to one of the previous threads?

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

More Zen questions: If a ball on a website that no one looks at bounces, does it loose inertia?

If people analyize frame by frame a simple animated ball, does it make the lack of a graph editor or x-sheet in Flash any better?

If a long drawn out, off topic thread about nothing in particular continues to go on, will people continue to post to it?

Perhaps we should start a new thread about bouncing balls, and everyone can show off their best balls loop. :D

PLEASE NO! :D
_____________________
Brain Storm or may be just partly cloudy.

On another thread there is some talk of a loose contest, how about making the contest about the "Bouncing Ball". The only rule is...you can not use a ball.
___________________
Off Topic: I was thinking of starting a thread on cheats, so any think that might be the next bouncing ball thread. ;D

I have another Zen question: Balls...which are best bouncing or static?

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

More Zen questions: If people analyize frame by frame a simple animated ball, does it make the lack of a graph editor or x-sheet in Flash any better?

:D

I don't think so!

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

I have another Zen question: Balls...which are best bouncing or static?

Swaying? :D

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PLEASE NO! :D

On another thread there is some talk of a loose contest, how about making the contest about the "Bouncing Ball". The only rule is...you can not use a ball.

Sounds good. A "simple" (or should say simpler) contest may get a lot more participation than something complex that they don't have time to do.

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I'm sorry, I don't understand. One, 3D isn't raster until you render, until then it's vector. And aren't you using symbols and objects as images when you motion tween? Isn't that the same as raster/bitmapped animation, just with resolution independant imagery? I'm standing by the opinion that controlling position, rotation and scale on separate keyframes would be very handy.

Take a look at how Moho from Lost Marble (and I believe Toon Boom) has set up their vector based software. It uses separate controls for channels much like AE or Maya. It also has a graphical interface for motion curves (much clearer than than the ease in/out dialogue on Flash) If Moho had better drawing and import tools, I would use that over Flash in a flash. It's a program designed to do animation and not hacked to do it.

And why did Live Motion die? Was I right?

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Why did it die? I think it was because everyone already had Flash or could get a copy from a freind. So why learn something new when something you know does almost the exact same thing?

Actually I really don't like Maya's timeline. I started learning Maya a few months ago through Animation Mentor, and that program has given me a whole new appreciation of how versatile and easy to use Flash is. No onion skinning. Can't just go any place in the time line an add a frame. Maybe I'm just so used to Flash. Actually I know I am, cause I ended up roughing out most of my assignments first in Flash and then translating them to my homework assignments in Maya.

Any way, I just want them to fix the un-do's. Your right Phacker, the MX version has been the best one so far.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

I'm sorry, I don't understand. One, 3D isn't raster until you render, until then it's vector. And aren't you using symbols and objects as images when you motion tween? Isn't that the same as raster/bitmapped animation, just with resolution independant imagery? I'm standing by the opinion that controlling position, rotation and scale on separate keyframes would be very handy.

Take a look at how Moho from Lost Marble (and I believe Toon Boom) has set up their vector based software. It uses separate controls for channels much like AE or Maya. It also has a graphical interface for motion curves (much clearer than than the ease in/out dialogue on Flash) If Moho had better drawing and import tools, I would use that over Flash in a flash. It's a program designed to do animation and not hacked to do it.

And why did Live Motion die? Was I right?

Position, rotation and scale are all available under properties in each keyframe and symbol of Flash. Sure the interface isn't an Adobe interface, they got into trouble when they tried to make it more so that way in Flash 5.

You may want to find and old version of LiveMotion and give it a go. It was bulky, and glitchy, and never delivered. Corel R.A.V.E, was better than this piece of Sh*t. And neither one can deliver what Flash can as far as web deliverable graphics.

Flash does what it does, it doesn't have to be hacked, it just has to be learned and understood.

Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.

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