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9 mouth shapes

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9 mouth shapes

Hello-
Can anyone tell me the 9 face-shapes used in traditional lipsink? Also (less important), has anyone found any short prases that use all the face-shapes? A kind of animators' equivelent of "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog"

yogyog's picture
Mike Futcher - www.yogyog.org

Mike Futcher - www.yogyog.org

lip sync isn't really language specific. If you know the basic mouth shapes, they should apply to any language since we animate dialouge phoneticaly. One of my animation teachers from the US worked in Germany for several years and he said dialogue wasn't a problem, plus it's all charted out on the x-sheet phoneticaly anyway. Thats why you have to listen to the dialouge, and not just read what the person is saying.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

I took it as he/she meant redrawing mouths for an overseas dub.

10 mouth shapes in lip sync

It's weird that he says he uses Blair as a source; half of those aren't even accurate...

Mouth shapes

Okay, here's another link, or do try Googleing yourself. There enough stuff lying around on the web.

I just realized Preston has no "th" mouth shape. So I guess there should be 10 basic mouth shapes. Yeah, those 3D mouths a off a bit. Kinda creepy too. :D

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

Actually he says the "L" works for the "TH" too. It probably should be a little different but... eh... whatever works.

Informative, but yes... creepy! :eek:

They must have had Wesley Snipes pose for those... :D

KA-POW!!

This is going to sound disparaging, but it truly is not meant to be. It is purely observation. From what I have seen, most of the people who are into "3D CGI animation," but not really all that familiar with actual animation in terms of theories, principles, techniques etc. usually align themselves with "whatever works" or "whatever gets them by." When I do a TH and an L in real life, the L is thin-tongued and sometimes even in the back of the teeth with the mouth slightly open, whereas the TH is relatively-flat tongued and the teeth rest on the tongue as it protrudes out past them. Pretty big difference, and a stickler would take the road less travelled by. But I think it's important to distinguish, though in 3D you don't have the time/means to re-morph every syllable, and I find I can make similar sounds for either one in either position so all's fair. But still what is natural, and by extension what looks natural, should be taken into account.

I imagine they figure it makes no difference as it flashes by on the screen so quickly. They could even be right. But I'm a perfectionist even where it isn't warranted. The so-called "move-imators" pick up what they know from an abstraction of the truth (like a game of telephone). I was just telling MightyMew the other day about the two-position walk cycle a teacher illustrated to us; contact and a passing/breakdown with a straight leg and one bent... nothing else. Just let the comp do the inbetweens, hand it in. If I were a working professional I'd take that as an insult -- do they imagine that's what really goes on at a studio? Are they like the bad Idol contestants and truly don't see a difference between Pixar-esque work and their own?

Anyhow, wow, sorry for the misdirectional rant. I promise I'll stay on topic next time =)

Thanks for the help guys -

I'm coming round to thinking speaking the words into a mirror will work better as this mouth-shape system is to formulaic.

Interesting note - If I say "but it's not as if" there's next to no lip movement throughout "ut it's not as i".

About the L and TH sounds.... on the L there are two distint positions - one with the tongue against the top of the mouth, one as the tounge slaps against the bottom teath. This second one is very like the TH mouth-shape. And it's during this position the L sounds.

Mike Futcher - www.yogyog.org

It might be dialectal, then. I say "eh" until such time as the tip of the tongue reaches something up top, then you hear the "ll" part of it. The only time it hits bottom teeth for me is when it goes back to a resting position.

As far as the "interesting note" it is interesting, but I would never apply that scenario to a cartoon. You have to be quiet or not enunciating your words clearly, mumbling. If I exaggerate to produce the roundest tones possible to read distinctly they each have their own thing going.

This is going to sound disparaging, but it truly is not meant to be. It is purely observation. From what I have seen, most of the people who are into "3D CGI animation," but not really all that familiar with actual animation in terms of theories, principles, techniques etc. usually align themselves with "whatever works" or "whatever gets them by." When I do a TH and an L in real life, the L is thin-tongued and sometimes even in the back of the teeth with the mouth slightly open, whereas the TH is relatively-flat tongued and the teeth rest on the tongue as it protrudes out past them. Pretty big difference, and a stickler would take the road less travelled by. But I think it's important to distinguish, though in 3D you don't have the time/means to re-morph every syllable, and I find I can make similar sounds for either one in either position so all's fair. But still what is natural, and by extension what looks natural, should be taken into account.

I imagine they figure it makes no difference as it flashes by on the screen so quickly. They could even be right. But I'm a perfectionist even where it isn't warranted. The so-called "move-imators" pick up what they know from an abstraction of the truth (like a game of telephone). I was just telling MightyMew the other day about the two-position walk cycle a teacher illustrated to us; contact and a passing/breakdown with a straight leg and one bent... nothing else. Just let the comp do the inbetweens, hand it in. If I were a working professional I'd take that as an insult -- do they imagine that's what really goes on at a studio? Are they like the bad Idol contestants and truly don't see a difference between Pixar-esque work and their own?

Anyhow, wow, sorry for the misdirectional rant. I promise I'll stay on topic next time =)

I seem to have struck a nerve... :D ... heh

When I said "whatever works" I was being sarcastic. I fully agree with you. Being a 2D animator, I realize there's no substitute for quality. I hope to learn alot more about mouth movement, especially while the character is in motion. And I could use some tips on timing the sync too. I'm kinda learning as I go.

KA-POW!!

Oh hey, that had nothing to do with you. Until you said something I didn't even know you had written those same words. Sometimes, well, all the time, I like to hear the sound of my own voice (written or otherwise) and I'm very opinionated, so you get stuff like that.

Yah, I repeat, total coincidence on the word front. Which makes it look even worse since I enclosed the bad-CGI people phrases in quotes. My bad and my respectful apologies.

From what I have seen, most of the people who are into "3D CGI animation," but not really all that familiar with actual animation in terms of theories, principles, techniques etc. usually align themselves with "whatever works" or "whatever gets them by."

But the lack of a proper "Th" mouth shape is also lacking from the actual Preston Blair examples. Not that Mr. Blair is one of them, but there are "whatever works" people in all mediums, not just 3D.

Yogyog, for animation, even if it's realistic, you have to exagerate the mouthshapes. Exagerate everything really, not just mouth shapes. The reason is that no matter how realistic a person is, deep down we humans can still tell it's not a real person with all their subtle movements. So becuase of this, animators have to push the actions, and lipsync to give the viewers more information in order for the action to look right. This is why motion capture or rotoscoping never looks quite right. Just my own theory.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

Theory? I think it's a law by now. It make sense. If you're going to have something look like a cartoon, make it move like one, act like one, because cartoons behave the way they do because it's the most effective way -for- them to.

And emphasis on proper TH. He has one, it just isn't what one would expect, it's bunched in with a whole list of other sounds you'd turn your head at. If I use any reference at all, it's never pre-drawn shapes. I believe there's a stronger bond of the mouth to the rest of the face's expression that needs to be honored because each piece of acting is so particular. In 2D we have the liberty of not having to spend 20 minutes to pseudo-sculpt those shapes, so take the freedom and enjoy it. I would never do a TH with a closed, all-teeth mouth missing a tongue, but that's exactly what's there. I can't even create it, naturally, with my own mouth.

And the quote-enclosed kinda people are more than just non-medium-specific, they are a fact of life in every way, but I wasn't excluding anyone else by commenting on 3DCGI. It was that I had recently noticed it was a trait particularly strong in this one group as a generalization, and only they had the level of tendency in my mind to be relevant in this particular conversation.

Here is something from Mudbubble.

Here is the Breeze lipsync tutorial for those who are interested.
http://macromedia.breezecentral.com/p48069653/

Here is where you can download the Breeze lipsync tutorial.
http://indiammug.com/downloads/flash/chrisBreezeLipSync.zip

Theory? I think it's a law by now.

But then, toons sometimes break the law, 'cos it's funny ;)

The matter of TH is only relevant in the English language. Other languages have other problems, I guess. If you concentrate too much on approximating (with exaggeration) the real-life lip movement, releasing in other languages than English is going to be nearly impossible. Perhaps that's why Preston Blair didn't include the TH -- it's too language-specific.

Depends on how many languages there are with which you're familiar. Tell the TH story to a Spaniard. Every person I've met from Andalucia uses TH instead of a soft C.

But your overarching point is a good one, to not lose yourself in an isolationist cultural hole.

Some animators take the "TH" to the extreme by drawing a fully extended tongue, being bitten firmly by a full set of teeth. On toons such as Ren & Stimpy and Tiny Toons, it's even juiced-up by a few droplets of spittle-spray. :D

KA-POW!!

Lip Sync on Eights

I have seen that lip sync are shot on eights, does that mean that there are only eight cels used for one word? If the project is going to be exported at a 24fps rate, I would have 3 shots of each cel to make up the one world? If a word falls too far from a one second mark, either short or long, I still shot the 8 cels to match the word lenght?

Lip synch is done to the sound of the audio. There is no hard and fast rule about how many frames each mouth position takes up.

There are a few tips, like a vowel shape is used on the frame where the vowel sounds, and consonant shapes anticipate the sound by a frame or so.

lol this is gonna give me nightmares:

http://www.garycmartin.com/images/baggins_a_i.jpg

Does anyone do lip sync this way for CGI? Animate the mouths first, export to Quicktime, import into movie editor ( iMovie for me :) ) test the dialogue, then animate the arms and legs + facial expressions? That's how I do my lip syncing. I think South Park does something similar...

Spoooze!

The classical response is "lip synch comes last". Body pose and attitude is far more important in showing your character's emotional state than the mouth positions.

South Park is a bad example to reference. It's barely animation in most cases, so the dialog between the characters is primary.

I've seen more expression in someone that didn't even have a head than I have in a lot of well-done dialogue bits.

I do not have Flash and I have no plans of getting it. So what do you think og the idea of getting one of the exposure sheet programs, for when I start doing lip sync.

What do you think of the idea of having a library of lip movement for a character. Each set shows a different emotion and a different angle.

Magpie

If you have built a decent 3d model the program Magpie Pro cannot be beat
Your wont even have to draw the mouth shapes just type in your text and set a few point and it will morph the lips eyes and any other face point
Check it out
http://www.thirdwishsoftware.com/magpiepro.html

That sounds like a good idea, to rough out ideas. As for the finish product, I think I would like to have a hand in the art work.

I've been told off for a if it works attitude. Fair enough. I feel that lip-sinc can get a litttle to formulaic - and it might be better to mouth to a mirror rather than rely on the tired old 9-shape rule to much. We've all seen cartoons where mouths snap around all over the place when something simpler may work better. For my fast talking self I'm considering a simple open shut+tween with emphasisd silables given over the top face-shapes. Also, moving the head and hands is to my mind more important than the lips, though that's a seperate issue. I can't see there's anything wrong with animating the mouth before the charactor, even if it's what they do on south-park.

Mike Futcher - www.yogyog.org