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The attitudes amongst 3D animators toward 2D

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The attitudes amongst 3D animators toward 2D

Hi all... Time for a new rant.

Have any of you gotten the feeling from 3d animators that they think of themselves as superior to traditional animators, and the two mediums have nothing in common? I have, and it bugs the hell out of me.

I remember starting a directing gig for a new studio here in Montreal which was originally supposed to be done in 3D. They already had a few 3D animators working (it was a small gig, making a webisode series), and I agreed to direct the project, against my better judgement that 3D would be far too expensive and heavy for webisodes. When I got to the studio, I met the 3D guys, and the producer introduced me and told them (in a nut shell) what experience I had. Their first question they had for me was, "do you know 3D?", or "have your ever worked in 3D?", more accurately. I told them "no", and all of their eyes started rolling to the sky. The next day, they all quit, saying that I could not direct a 3D project due to my "very little knowledge in 3D animation". This was all fine, as I turned the project into the Flash project it should have been in the first place, but I am just tired of this all-too-common attitude.

There are many people out there, in the field of CG animation who share these feelings. They believe that the two mediums are COMPLETELY unrelated, and the same principles obviously do not apply to one another, or some such nonesense. I have seen many on this forum as well who appear to share the same feelings, and I for one have had enough of this supremesist attitude.

I have said this before in this forum, and I will say it again for those of you who did not seem to catch it the first time. CG animation software is a TOOL which enables you to do the SAME THING as we traditional animators do, but with a different look! The only difference is that we traditional animators have actually learned acting, and how to make things move the most believable way possible, while most CG animators have learned how to push a mouse, and learned all the features that their software package has to offer. Have you ever noticed that the best CG animators were at one time traditional animators? Why do you think that is? Because they know animation timing better than anyone. They know acting better than anyone. They know what a nice silhouetted pose is better than anyone. I have not seen many CG animators, who do not have 2D experience, animate ANYTHING well, to be honest. Sure the stuff moves acceptably for the producer, but in this director's eyes, who is not concerned for that producer's schedule and budget, the animation is not moving well at all. (Now there are a couple exceptions to this, but more-or-less...)

Those of you 3D animators who share these views could really learn something from the traditional animators who you dog so much. Traditional animation paved the way for you folks; pioneered the industry in fact. Without traditional animation, and its progression over time, where do you think 3D animation would be right now?

You might think about this the next time you look down on us at work or on an animation forum: I could teach my wife (one of the least artistic people I know) how to use 3D software, and make things move. Will they move well and properly? NO. Software can be learned. Animation can not.

So that is my rant.

Cheers

Wade K's picture
"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

Have any of you gotten the feeling from 3d animators that they think of themselves as superior to traditional animators, and the two mediums have nothing in common? I have, and it bugs the hell out of me.
...
Those of you 3D animators who share these views could really learn something from the traditional animators who you dog so much.
...
You might think about this the next time you look down on us at work or on an animation forum....

I have yet to talk to a 3D animator who feels that 2D animation is inferior.

There's all this suspicion among 2D people that 3D people are laughing at the 2D people. (Someone started a thread about this creeping paranioa several months back.) What I DO see is 2D people who see 3D as an inferior technique, but they are rare. Most animators are open-minded.

Must just be my imagination then...

"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

hi wade!

That's funny , becuase I actually experienced almost the exact oposite of you.

Then again, I work in commercials, so, i'mnot sure the mentalitys are the same.
nevertheless, amongst the animators and ( animmation world workers", I never quite sensed such contempt.
On the contrary actually.
When I see,meet three d guys, most of the time, they admire my stuff, and ask me to " tecah" them how to do this or that , or ask me to do a little something for them

I, on the other end, admire them a lot too, especially the modellers!
heck, my best friend here , is a modeller( while, none of my friends in france actually animate nor model, they all draw though!)

as far as a two d guy directing a three d project, here again, I will only talk about a commercial experience..
There was that one (hell) of a spot actually directed by someone who hadn't dwelled in Three d at all.

And, sure enough, the principles of animationand acting were his area of cocus.. and he did great as far as that was concerned, but thee were so many other aspects of the three d production world he didn't understand and that caused so much pain .. that a lot of the cg guys swore not to work with someone who doesn't understand the WHOLE process of three D

Example.
That director had no idea that Lighting and texturing should be done on almost animage to image basis
To him, the grapes were nice and beautiful from the get go.. and didn't quite get the fact thatthe lighter , especially whenusing radiosity , ahd to work very hard not only at giventhe grapes a good texture, but keep that up on a regular level through out the spot , and the shots

As far as animation goes, He had a hard time with the constant tweening mode of three D..
That, I understand, becuas eit is the main thing I dislike about it also

Ok.. I'm not goingto make this way too long..

In short.

In my opinion there are certainly MANY differences between the PROCESS of two d animation and Three d animations.
These are actually very big..
In the end.
The viewer doesn't get that , he only gets the tip of the iceberg wich shows through the quality of the piece.. story , acting .. etc ..

That's all

P.

I've seen this before, albeit in limited ways......with students.

I used to teach students of both 2D and 3D, and the mentioned attitude was there.
Once I overheard that 2D students were dinosaurs.

The thing I realized is that they were not seeing the whole picture.

If humans and dinosaurs co-existed, who do ya think would win out?

Dinosaurs were 30-something feet tall, had 6-8 inch fangs and were used to eating stuff smaller than them.

2D students LOVE hearing that one......3D, not so much.. :)

--Ken

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Okay, so maybe there is the occasional arrogant elitist (students and other insecure types) among animators, but I don't see it as a prevailing attitude. Most animators have respect for the various animation styles and media.

heya Wade,

sorry you had such a bad experience with those 3d "animators" who quit simply because you came from a 2d background. that's an amazing opportunity lost for those guys because they didn't take into consideration what you would have to teach them.

There are many people out there, in the field of CG animation who share these feelings. They believe that the two mediums are COMPLETELY unrelated, and the same principles obviously do not apply to one another, or some such nonesense. I have seen many on this forum as well who appear to share the same feelings, and I for one have had enough of this supremesist attitude.

I totally agree. It doesn't matter the medium.. 2d, computer, stop motion, etc.. all are totally valid and equal.

I have said this before in this forum, and I will say it again for those of you who did not seem to catch it the first time. CG animation software is a TOOL which enables you to do the SAME THING as we traditional animators do, but with a different look! The only difference is that we traditional animators have actually learned acting, and how to make things move the most believable way possible, while most CG animators have learned how to push a mouse, and learned all the features that their software package has to offer. Have you ever noticed that the best CG animators were at one time traditional animators? Why do you think that is? Because they know animation timing better than anyone. They know acting better than anyone. They know what a nice silhouetted pose is better than anyone. I have not seen many CG animators, who do not have 2D experience, animate ANYTHING well, to be honest. Sure the stuff moves acceptably for the producer, but in this director's eyes, who is not concerned for that producer's schedule and budget, the animation is not moving well at all. (Now there are a couple exceptions to this, but more-or-less...)

aw, man! ya see, I was with ya up until you started dogging 3d animators. I know MANY MANY MANY 3d animators who are fantastic who don't have a 2d background. when you start attacking 3d animators you're doing the same thing you're ranting about. Stop the attacking, and start the love, man!

c'mon.

gimme a hug.

:)

No, no... DOn't get me wrong. I am not attacking 3D animators. I agree, there are a tonne of them who are really good, regardless of no traditional experience. However, the way they are pumping students out now in their "intensive" programs, the kids coming out have no idea how to make things move at all well.

Anyways... I see 2D and 3D as equal... Didn't mean to seem like I was thinking 3D animators are crap, and 2D ones not.

Cheers

"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

see, THAT I agree with.

that's why www.animationmentor.com is such a cool idea.. 3d/2d/stop motion/ cutout/etc it doesn't matter.

the important thing is that ANIMATORS study acting and learn from everything/anything. any time you say "bah, I don't need to learn that" you're only hurting yourself.

Hi all... Time for a new rant.

................ Their first question they had for me was, "do you know 3D?", or "have your ever worked in 3D?", more accurately. I told them "no", and all of their eyes started rolling to the sky. The next day, they all quit, saying that I could not direct a 3D project due to my "very little knowledge in 3D animation". This was all fine, as I turned the project into the Flash project it should have been in the first place, but I am just tired of this all-too-common attitude.

.............
Cheers

That sucks, Wade. They should tell that to Brad Bird (never mind many of the founding Pixar crew).
But I like to think your experience is based on those animators' immaturity rather than common. It happens especially when we are relatively new. I was young and knew everything once upon a time.
I find even within a category like even 2d we have our elitist camps. E.g one person dismissing an animation style because it isn't "feature quality Dsieny style". Going as far as to say something is "bad" when in reality it's just different.
I'm sure it happens. And prejudice cuts alot of ways too. But I tend to notice alot more mutual admiration too, at least in cyberspace.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, no... DOn't get me wrong. I am not attacking 3D animators. I agree, there are a tonne of them who are really good, regardless of no traditional experience. However, the way they are pumping students out now in their "intensive" programs, the kids coming out have no idea how to make things move at all well.

Anyways... I see 2D and 3D as equal... Didn't mean to seem like I was thinking 3D animators are crap, and 2D ones not.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah..
that's my wade
lol

Hi again.

It wasn't just with that one experience that I was basing my opinion either... I see it more and more noawadays. When we were producing "Tripping the Rift", I saw it a lot among the team there too. I see it on this board sometimes too... It is just a tad bit frustrating when a 19-year-old punk staright out of school who can make things move poorly (but acceptably according to the producer) on a computer tells me that 3D is superior to 2D. Now, I am just about to start work at one of the biggest game studios world-wide, and wondering what kind of attitude I am going to encounter there toward the traditional art.

Anyways.. For the record. I had made the jump to 3D, and now consider myself a 3D animator as well as a traditional one (allbeit, a pretty junior one). Again, I mean no offence to any of the 3D animators on here. It is not particularily to you whom I am referring, unless you actually carry the very attitude I described (and realize it of course... some people just don't see their flaws at all).

Cheers

"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

And Ken... I just wanted to say it was good to have another individual on here who has been around the business, and seen what there is to see, making yourself able to pass informed judgements and opinions on what he is talking about. It is also great that you speak up and voice your opinions, good or bad, regardless of what everyone else thinks. Some people don't like that about me, but I just tell it like I see it, you know? No beating around any bushes. That way, you always know what I think, plain and simple, rather than guessing on what I REALLY think and say behind your back.

Pascal, you kill me (amicalement, bien sure).

Good to have you aboard, mate!

Cheers

"Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard" - Paul Simon

I can see a 3D animator brushing off 2D animation, and one shouldn't take offense.

3D animation owes as much to sculpture, engineering, mathematics, and puppetry, but if a 3D animator said, "the muppets are boring," I'd reply, "eh." Maybe if I were a puppeteer, I'd take it personally, but it's not really a huge deal. The important issue is not whether he shows the proper respect to 2D animation or stop-motion animation or whatever, but whether or not he's doing his best to create great animation.

... one person dismissing an animation style because it isn't "feature quality Disney style". Going as far as to say something is "bad" when in reality it's just different.

They need to see independent animation, or even student work...I don't get how Tim Burton and Bill Plympton can exist, and someone can think anything outside the Disney box is garbage...

Old chestnut

I wouldn't normally get involved with the old chestnut that is 2D vs. 3D but it strikes me that if a story suggests to the filmmaker that a certain style or technique is best for telling the tale then that is the key reason for making any decision about what format to adopt.

e.g. our film 'The Beardmaker' utilized 3D for the beardmaker mechanism but the rest of the footage used digital photography. What ever works, whatever gives the best results.

And as to people getting involved in petty arguments about which is best 2D or 3D, I suggest you get on and make some stuff, show some stuff and make some dosh, then we can all get together for a big part, form a peoples army seize control of the state and appoint Daffy Duck (the 2D version) as ruler of the universe.

The Brothers McLeod
[SIZE=2]brothersmcleod.co.uk[/SIZE]

I agree with Everyone!

Hello.

I agree with Wade and Harvey and Grega and everyone. I have worked on several 3D projects where I was directing the 3D guys with my then 2D experience. I found no problem. I know several other folks who have done likewise. Once in a while you do find folks who will rear back and play the "tech" card - usually they are insecure or untalented artists who are using 3D as a crutch.

When teaching, I work with tons of 3D students and they all are welcoming and hospitable toward 2D and toward my work. They don't care what "D" I use as long as I can help them.

I will say when schools depend too much on software learning instead of animation learning- that it is a major drawback.

Thanks.

quote from grega

And as to people getting involved in petty arguments about which is best 2D or 3D, I suggest you get on and make some stuff, show some stuff and make some dosh, then we can all get together for a big part, form a peoples army seize control of the state and appoint Daffy Duck (the 2D version) as ruler of the universe.

that won't happen for another oh............ i'd say ... three and a half century

lol
P.

Rats! Anyone know anything about time travel?

The Brothers McLeod
[SIZE=2]brothersmcleod.co.uk[/SIZE]

i follow up and agree 100% with Wade K.

bashing 2D because your aint in the '3D club' is really redicilous and an egoeistic move towards him/others.
just to think your a good animator just because you know maya or alike software.. geesh, i think he needs to wear a big 'Looser' cap :)
3d with no 2d background is like a programmer without assembly knowledge (and i see that allot as a programmer nowdays!).
knowing Y without X doesn't mean your L33t, it just shows how lack of X you have.
its about any field in life, but since we are talking about animation, so it seems that every person that comes out from a X months of 3D course can actually call him self an animator - NOT! it just shows that you can tell a program to do all the hard work for you and nothing else .
you have to understand that all the 3D softwares are there to aid or make the production process 'faster' but it still doesn't make you an animator.

tell a 3d animator with no 2d skills/background to make an animated scence and he will work he ass off to pull something considiring a "O.K" :).
so i strongly believe in foundamantial knowledge and good practice.

Wade, those dudes are loosers comparing to you, just keep your embitions high, and keep practicing in ANY field you want, since you'v got the background.
nothing can keep ya down once you up.

Visit my site http://www.animdesk.com

Well. I bet Roy Disney just shut down his 2D animation studios and now he has 3D animation studios.