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grab a coffee... you'll need one to read this

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grab a coffee... you'll need one to read this

I have a statement to make, if it pleases patrons of this site.

If you've ever seen south park, think of the animation style used for Mel Gibson and Sadam Hussein (to name a few), as that is the style of animation i am interested in... a photo of someones head, on a cut out body.

My personal opinion is that a story is the most important issue with any production... but then i would say that cos i'm a writer... but think about it... you could have the best actors, animators, directors and so on... but if you don't have a simple screenplay to work from, you have nothing but good intentions.

The story is primarilly what keeps people hooked, as a good story that goes somewhere will leave people wanting more, whereas a bad story that goes nowhere will leave people wanting something else to watch... and without wishing to jeopardise the case for the defence (my good self), animation is merely a means to aid a story.

BY WHICH I MEAN................ conventional feature films use actors to give a story imagery, though without special effects, all actors are limited... cartoons on the other hand allow for significantly more scope and versatility, as animated characters can do and get away with more than an actor ever could.

All of which brings me to costing.

How much would it cost to create five minutes of animation in the above mentioned style?

Somewhere between 500 pounds and five thousand pounds, depending on who is animating perhaps? in that, an out of work post graduate who is very hungry and seeking to create a showreel, is going to be cheaper to hire than an experienced animator with a showreel longer than walt disney for example... but hey, don't take that statement personally, as it applies to every industry sector out there.

BUT... if we go with the top figure of five grand for five minutes... how is it that an episode of phone jacker, which is static, no real backgrounds to speak of etc, costs almost 300 grand to produce, when its just 25 minutes of broadcast time?

It should be ten percent of that figure... but it ain't... and by the same token, why is it that a full length feature... 90 minutes... costs millions of dollars, when its 18 five minute segments that should cost no more than 90 grand?

Where do those millions go to... cos from what i've seen, animators don't get any of it.

All of which brings me to my main point... i need 18 animators.

If everybody is using the same images and backgrounds etc, all segments should end up with the same feel, making for a completed feature film.

Any and all interested animators should email me for a copy of the screenplay, in order that they can make an informed decission as to whether they should get involved with this project or not.

But i definately need 18 animators, as i can't afford to hire Tom Cruise, Bruce Willis, Oprah Winfrey, Paul Whitehouse, Harry Enfield, or Gilbert the Alien.

ekhornbeck@hotmail.com

comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable

th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th that's all folks!

I am completely agree with you,storyline is very important in any type of films..
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The oft-quoted cost for animation is an average MINIMUM of $10,000 per minute.
Its never changed depending on the style of animation, or the medium used.
In most cases its quoted as JUST the animation, because to get there you have to have scripts written, designs done, storyboards drawn, voice-work recorded, slugged and shot as an animatic, then the timing sheets done, and layouts, builds, or rigs done.
Some folks claim they can do it for far less.......but frankly, its bullshit, as you get what you pay for.

Now, why does it cost that much?

Well, let's crunch some numbers.
First we'll assume that we are doing the 5 minutes to video, because that'll affect the numbers.
How, because the frame-rate for video is different than film, and its by frame-rate that ultimately animators work and get paid.
The standard frame-rate for video is 30 frames per second--in film its 24 frames per second-- so 5 minutes of film is 9000 frames, or 562.5 feet of film.
16 frames equals 1 foot of film.
That is what we work with for this.

Now, an animator can only do a certain amount of work in a week.
Its not just drawing, but organizing the work. Its timing actions, composition , moving the action in the scene, actually animating it and shooting it to see if it works, and then making changes.

For really simple cut-out style animation, an animator can comfortably complete about 10 feet per week. A work week being an 8 hour day, 5 days a week.
A modest wage for that kind of work would be a minimum of $1000 per week.
It would take a sole animator over a year to do the entire 5 minutes at a cost of $120,000+
That is just one animator.
Its going to cost $120,000 regardless if you use 2, 3 or 4 or many animators to cut down the time because they still need that rate, and they still need a time-line that says EACH does about 10 feet a week.

But, again, there are some folks that claim they can do it for far less. They stiff animators, or pay them a pittance wage. The slap on unrealistic quotas of 30-40 feet per week, demanding that talent work longer hours and all 7 days of the week. They short cut by not doing pencil tests or other practises, so no-one really knows if timing is working until they get closer to the final product--when its really too late ( and too expensive) to fix it.
In short, they go cheap and they produce shit. What does cheap looking shit do for anyone? It makes them and their ideas look bad.

And that $120,000 is JUST the animator we are talking about.
Figure a couple grand for a 5-minute script, at least the same or more for designs--depending on how many characters, props and locations have to be designed for that 5 minutes, and about 3 grand for the boards. And you have to pay a director to over see this whole thing for the duration....
Then layout/builds, voice work, timing.... OH..........and equipment, because if you are using FLASH or some software you need computer stations if you are just starting out......yea, it can creep up well past $200,000 to beyond $300,000 without even blinking.

Just to do 5 minutes of "simple" animation.
A full-length feature is 18 times longer, at least 20 times more work, and can be up to 100 times more expensive. Just cuz.
Now the average of $10,000 per minute is just a minimum. Obviously 5 minutes of animation at that average would only be $50,000, not $120,000--but its only a minimum.
Animation is NOT cheap--it never has been.
Its the amount of work that needs to be done, and the time that it takes that really decides the cost of it. You can say its going to be "simple" and very basic...but really, does that truly work for your project or is it just a arbitrary demand made because of the fear of costs.
You can try to find animators that will work for $500 a week ( or less), but are you going to get talent worthy of the job at hand, or is the objective just to crap something out??
If its that simple, you'd be better off animating it yourself, and pocketing all that cash--its simple stuff after all, right?

But you say you need 18 animators.......are you prepared to pay out $18,000 per week for them?

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Damn... and i thought that my posting was a long one:eek:

OK.....

Basing the following on the workings of my own avid system, film runs at 24fps, but everything i've ever cut for tv and video has been 25fps not 30fps.

And yes, when you're talking about dreamworks or similar, you do need hand drawn animation, riggers and so on, which is clear to see with the end product, ie the quality and sharpness etc... thing is, at the very start of my posting, i did state that what i am looking for is the cheapest form of animation, aka the type that south park use for characters like sadam hussein and mel gibson for example.

I'm not looking for top end animation, all i want or rather need is the sort of stuff that is relatively simple to a knowledgable animator.

As for script... i have stated that a completed screenplay is available via email for all animators interested in this project.

Then there is the soundtrack... well, i'm still working on puting that together at present on my own avid, so that is not an issue for me either.

And as with everything else in life, this form of animation "IS" simple, but only to those who have trained, studied and mastered it... and as i am a firm believer in a place for everything and everything in its place, i would rather animators did this and not me.

Ten grand a minute??? maybe if you're making something like SHREK... but ten grand a minute for mel gibson or sadam hussein... NEVER!

Whiteheartmovies on youtube is a prime example of this form of or technique or style of animation, and he's done absolutely shit loads of work for a radio dj called iain lee... work which i might add he was not paid for, as he enjoys doing that style of animation.

It is very basic amination, as its a cut out body, static backgrounds and moveable jaws, eyes and ears etc.... kinda on par with the uba basic stop motion stuff that terry gilliam did when monty python were starting out in the 1960's.

Maybe i shouldn't have made a comparrison between this style of animation and dreamworks multi million dollar films, but the basis is still the same, in that "cost effective" animation, the type i seek, can be done cheaply, and if a series of animators are using the same graphics, as supplied by me, then the end result of each segment will or rather should be identical right along the board.

Comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable--- ME (1969-still alive!).

I'm not looking for top end animation, all i want or rather need is the sort of stuff that is relatively simple to a knowledgable animator.

Well, if you seek a knowledgeable animator, you are likely going to have to pay for one.
Sure you can hire a student for next to nothing, but think about what you are getting.
If you want someone with the ability to problem solve based on experience, you'll need to offer a respectable wage.

Then there is the soundtrack... well, i'm still working on puting that together at present on my own avid, so that is not an issue for me either.

The track is just part of it--who is going to do the exposure sheets? Are you having a storyboard done? Is it going to be slugged? Is it going to be shot as an animatic? How about the equipment? Computers? Cameras? Lights?

And as with everything else in life, this form of animation "IS" simple, but only to those who have trained, studied and mastered it... and as i am a firm believer in a place for everything and everything in its place, i would rather animators did this and not me.

Yea, its only simple if you know what you are doing, but you profess to not know.
Trust me, its NOT simple, at any level.

Whiteheartmovies on youtube is a prime example of this form of or technique or style of animation, and he's done absolutely shit loads of work for a radio dj called iain lee... work which i might add he was not paid for, as he enjoys doing that style of animation.

Oh, lovely, someone that does animation for free.
Fuck that! No-one wonder people think it can be done for free or cheap.
If you want expertise, you are going to have to pay for it, especially if they are just going to be a hired wrist.

Those films are done on computer, btw.... using FLASH most likely.

Ten grand a minute??? maybe if you're making something like SHREK... but ten grand a minute for mel gibson or sadam hussein... NEVER!

I'm not talking Shrek quality. Shrek would cost about $500,000-$750,000 a minute, at least.

If you don't believe it, that's your choice. I'm not pulling those numbers out of my ass.

Go find out for yourself.

( and just so that you understand where my attitude is coming from, animation forums like AWN see offers and logic like yours at least every couple of months.
They are all the same......someone with limited knowledge of the craft, think that they have a great idea and believe its the next big thing and that its deserves to be made.
But there is one snag......they have little or no money, or they think its simple and can be done cheap.
Well, hey, a plumber can come in and do a "simple job" and still charge you $1000 for it, or a lawyer can do some "simple" legal work that takes 5 minutes and charge the same. Its not that its simple, or that it took 5 or 15 minutes........its their expertise.
And, yea, I'll be so forward as to say that animators are as "expert" as plumber or lawyers, and have comparable skill-sets in the amount of things they are required to know.
People grouse, put they pay those lawyers and plumbers because at the end of the day they KNOW that without that expertise they would have to do without, or attempt it themselves.
So, I do not buy the argument that "it should be cheap" or that its simple, when it comes to animation.
For many of us, this is our livelihood. To those dickheads out there that think someone WANTS to work 80 hours weeks on crap looking stuff, being paid less than minimum wage with NO over-time just because they loooooove animation.......fuck 'em. Frankly there is NOTHING any of these people or their ideas have over putting that level of effort into an artists own ideas and projects.

And forget about back-end deals........everyone offers them, and they are bullshit. I say that because the deal is that if the project makes a profit, then talent gets paid--but the folks running it make sure their cut comes before the net gets worked out, so there never is any profit to pay the talent. Oh well, right?)

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

*sigh!*

...sorry Chuff!

When I saw your initial post, I knew that "The Ken" would set you straight! ;)

Re-read the whole string again, and you may see that Ken speaks a lot of truth. From experience, too. Been around the block. All that stuff...

Actually, since it is simple cut-out animation, don't you have After Effects?
If not: get it, learn it. Bingo! Profits all yours!

Meh, but seriously...we're all in this together, writers and animators.
No real answers from me, but as Ken says, we've seen these types of offers before. Haven't seen many succeed...:(

Cheers!
Splatman:D

I read an article recently about South Park Studios, and I don't think this is widely known, but the show is actually animated in Maya, and apparently has been for a very long time. I would have guessed After Effects like Splatman said.

link: http://www.apple.com/pro/profiles/southpark/

The second page of the article lists the hardware and software that the studio uses.

Ken........

I'm not looking for a fight here buddy, so chill ok.

What i will say though, is that in your last posting, you yourself ended this conversation with your answer using quote number four!

(Your quote)..... Those films are done on computer, btw.... using FLASH most likely.

And THAT..... is my point entirely... as i have said from the very begining... that style is the specific style i am seeking to use... done on a computer... using FLASH... PROBABLY!!!!

Do we have that basic understanding now Ken???

Are we on the same page now Buddy??????

THIS PILE OF SHIT IS A LABOUR OF LOVE THAT IS GOING TO DO NOTHING OTHER THAN COST ME TIME, EFFORT, MONEY AND STRESS... AS I AM NEVER, EVER, EVER... GOING TO GROSS DOLLAR ONE FROM IT OK.

The instant i even think about charging money for a dvd of this film, i guarantee you that Tom Cruise, Bruce Willis, Oprah Winfrey, Paul Whitehouse, Harry Enfield, Harvey Weinstein and many, many others will set their corporate lawyers on my ass for trying to make money out of copyrighted images that i do not own... THEIR copyrighted images.

And that... in a nutshell, is why i need the cheapest form of computerised, flash animation, whatever the heck its called.

Once the audio track is completed, animation can start, as its all going to be done on computers, with some of the most basic flash animation software available that most animators will be able to use.

Or is there some form of animation snobbery going on here?

Is flash animation frowned upon for not being proper animation?

What i'm looking for is tried and tested animation... it works and it does its job

And PLEASE.... desist with your closed bracket rants ok, like the one you used to end your last posting.

I've already said that i want animators, as a place for everything and everything in its place... so there was no need to say lawyers and plumbers, as i've already covered that one... I WANT ANIMATORS OK.

Then there's back end payments... aka deferred payments, which have been in the film industry longer than films have been there!!!!!

At no point have i even thought about mentioning deferred payments... so what's your beef with trying to imply that?????

From the outset, i have said that i need cheap animation, and that i am prepared to pay for it, between 500 and 5 grand for five minutes.:eek:

Please... take a chill pill and re-read my postings as clearly you are taking my words totally out of cornflakes ok!

I dare say that you do get offers from hairbrains who think muppets will work for nothing, but please... PLEASE... for fucks sake... don't stick me in your kangaroo court as its nothing short of a slanderous fucking insult ok.

IF I EVER SAY ANY OF THOSE THINGS THEN TAKE YOUR BEST SHOT... BUT I AIN'T, SO DON'T.

Comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable--- Me (1969 - still alive).

I do hateful things for which people love me, and loveable things for which they hate me... i'm admired for my detestability! -- Me again, (1969 - and i'm still livin large).:cool:

I don't understand something here..........

Is that quoted $5,000 PER animator for a $90,000 budget, or is that $5000 for the total budget for animation talent?
And is that 18 animators for a single 5 minute spot, or 18 animators for 18, 5-minute spots--making a feature length project of 90 minutes??

Because there's two very different reactions possible.....

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

@ earchild

Ah yes...I too was surprised at how South Park was animated. At the very beginning of that series I first thought it was cut-out/stop-motion! Silly me!:p

But I was assuming Chuff M. was thinking more of a Jib-Jab type animation...way-back-when mostly Flash, now lots of After Effects me thinks. And stop-motion...man, Jib-Jab is doing a lot of production styles now!:)

Cheers!
Splatman:D

OK.....

I need 18 animators.

Each animator will be required to animate a five minute segment of the film.

When all 18 animators have finished... in theory, i will have a 90 minute film that i can only ever give away for free, as a download (for previously stated reasons).

18 animators, each taking five minutes of the film.

aka.. 18 times 5 equals 90.

Cheap as chips, flash animation, on a computer, no drawings.

Comfort....................

I do.........................

Etc, Etc, Magnasia... end quote.

Man this forum is hard work at times... :(

As the Joe Pesci character Leo Getts once said... OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK!

Please take a look at the following link... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPpSt2K6X80

IF..... you can create that specific form of animation... then at some point in the future, i would like to hire the services of you, and approximately 17 other animating people, to create five minutes per animator, of THAT SPECIFIC STYLE OF ANIMATING.

Just to recap... if you can sit down in front of a computer and use flash animation software to create something like this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPpSt2K6X80 i would like to pay you cold hard cash to do it.

It may not be the best cash paying job in the universe... but hey, cash is king, and its better to have pockets with cash, than empty pockets and high principals... cos principals don't pay the rent!

There is no rush for this job, so i won't be looking for a quick turnaround ok, if it takes a month of your spare time to do it, it takes a month of your spare time... or two months... so long as it gets done.

NO DEFERRED PAYMENTS... COLD HARD CASH ONLY!

WHO WANTS CASH??? ANYONE WANT CASH????

ekhornbeck@hotmail.com mail me, i'll send you a copy of the script, we go from there.... as with everything in this life, it's as simple or as hard as YOU want to make it.

the end.

OK.....

I need 18 animators.

Each animator will be required to animate a five minute segment of the film.

When all 18 animators have finished... in theory, i will have a 90 minute film that i can only ever give away for free, as a download (for previously stated reasons).

18 animators, each taking five minutes of the film.

aka.. 18 times 5 equals 90.

Cheap as chips, flash animation, on a computer, no drawings.

Comfort....................

I do.........................

Etc, Etc, Magnasia... end quote.

Man this forum is hard work at times... :(

Now, answer the important question:
Is the budget you have stated $5000 for EACH animator to do a 5 minute segment, OR is that $5,000 for all 18 to do 90 minutes worth??

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Now, answer the important question:
Is the budget you have stated $5000 for EACH animator to do a 5 minute segment, OR is that $5,000 for all 18 to do 90 minutes worth??

Ken... this aint rocket science mate... i stated from the off... in my very first posting that five minutes of animating should cost between 500 and 5000 depending on who is doing the animating... more experience costs more money... and that 18 five minute segments should be no more than 90 grand.

Not even the koreans would try to quote 90 minutes of animating for five grand... come on man!

Ken... this aint rocket science mate... i stated from the off... in my very first posting that five minutes of animating should cost between 500 and 5000 depending on who is doing the animating... more experience costs more money... and that 18 five minute segments should be no more than 90 grand.

Not even the koreans would try to quote 90 minutes of animating for five grand... come on man!

You were not clear on that, my apologies for being brusque.

And don't fiddle those amounts by experience.
If you offer some grad $500 because they are new, you'll pay for a flake that will produce shit or nothing at all.
Why should they commit for the duration and the quality when some other artist is getting 10 times the rate?
Set a rate for all comers and you'll get talent.
Offering variable rates breeds resentments in the talent pool--because like it or not, everyone is going to have to bring the same skill-set along to do the job, regardless of their experience.
$5000 a head, for 5 minutes of footage apiece, will get you bites.

And believe it or not, there are indeed people that DO quote features for as little as 5 grand--OR LESS! They get their lungs handed to them in these forums.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Ken, i ain't got a scooby-do (clue), as to how much the going rate is for five minutes of this style of animating, which is why i plucked those figures out of my ass... 500 to 5000.

And if people do try to get animation done at five grand for an hour and a half they desrve to get served in my opinion.

All i know is, this is a cheap form of animting so its what i can afford to run with to get the job done.

I'm out to prove a point, in that i ain't spent the last twenty plus years writing film scripts for no one other than myself.

It's a good enough project to run with, so i'm running with it.

You have to believe in yourself, cos if you don't... no one else will.

Haven't read through all of this, sorry if this is a repeat. Besides animators you will need folks who know photoshop to break out the different elements - eyes, mouth, hands, create props, etc. Nothing difficult, but someone's gotta do it. I think the prep may take longer than the animation.

JibJab does similar work and "Wonderpets" the kids' show does, too.

Good luck.

Ken is right, we do get a lot of offers from people looking to hire animators for free or next to nothing. Most, if not all sound exactly like your first post. But you are willing to pay the animators, So I commend you for offering payment.

I've been animating in Flash for 10 years, and I, nor do others here look down on it. Well not TOO down on it. ;) What I and others do frown upon are when people say, "cheapest form of computerised, flash animation."

Non artist/animation people often confuse stylized animation with cheap animation. This is rarely the case. The more stylized something is, the less you can hide behind the razzle dazzle. I'm not saying the cut out style you want is Disney Sleeping Beauty hard, but you can't just hire some donkey off the street to do it.

$5000 for 5 minutes is a bit on the low end for Flash animation, but still in the acceptable range.

Let's see if I can re-phrase Ken's payment arguments. I can animate about 45 seconds of very stylized Flash animation in a week. This is the high end of the Flash animation standard. The style you want, falls into this. Let's just round it up to 1 minute of animation a week, and thats working a 40 hour work week. So it'll take me 5 weeks to animate one of your sequences. If you paid me $500 for the 200 hours I spend animating your sequence that works out to $2.50 an hour. THAT is what Ken is getting pissed about. Well, one of the many things Ken is getting pissed about. So I think if you want to get your project done, it's gotta be at least $5000 per 5 minute sequence.

I hope this helps you out a little bit.

Oh, and how do you plan on paying the animators? Are you thinking of paying 1/5 after they turn in each minute of animation, or what? I think this would be the way to go. One the animators will know you can pay, and won't get stiffed after turning in all 5 minutes. Ken and other have rants about this too. And it will also keep the animators focused. If they can finish 1 minute ever week or two, and get paid, the job will seem smaller. But 5 minutes of animation with full payment at the end just seems too abstract for most people to wrap their heads around. Just more things for you to think about.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

Oh, I missed B'ini's post about the pre-production on this. Yeah, hiring someone to break out the photo elements and symbolize them in Flash is a good thing to have for this project. I would suggest hiring one of the animators to do this and pay them separate for this job. An animator will know how the assets will be used and will prepare them properly. Trust me, I've worked on projects where this step isn't done properly and it makes my job as an animator twice as hard, till I finally re-rigged the assets to work properly.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

Let's see if I can re-phrase Ken's payment arguments. I can animate about 45 seconds of very stylized Flash animation in a week. This is the high end of the Flash animation standard. The style you want, falls into this. Let's just round it up to 1 minute of animation a week, and thats working a 40 hour work week. So it'll take me 5 weeks to animate one of your sequences. If you paid me $500 for the 200 hours I spend animating your sequence that works out to $2.50 an hour. THAT is what Ken is getting pissed about. Well, one of the many things Ken is getting pissed about. So I think if you want to get your project done, it's gotta be at least $5000 per 5 minute sequence.

I'm pissed I didn't say it that nicely.:rolleyes:

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

The ol' good cop, bad cop routine. ;) Mission accomplished Ken.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

Ken, don't sweat it mate... we got there in the end and it ain't the first time i've been tarred with someone else's brush through mistaken identity... water off a ducks back to me.

And thanks for everyone elses input / ideas... as yes, i will indeed be requiring a lead animator... someone who will be working on pre-production for the project.

There job will be to set everything up in order that each animator gets an identical pack of head shots, eyes, lips, backgrounds and so on.

And yes, they will be paid seperately from the main animating budget... though in saying that, i still need two things before anything moves forwards;

A: a gang of animators who will be ready to work once the work is available,
B: a completed soundtrack for them to animate to.

AND FINALLY... ONE PIECE OF INFORMATION THAT SHOULD SETTLE THE PAY ISSUES... I COME FROM LONDON... IN THE UNITED KINGDOM... WHERE WE SPEND POUNDS (gbp), NOT DOLLARS (usd).... CURRENT EXCHANGE RATE IS ABOUT 1.5 IN MY FAVOUR, SO WHEN I SAY FIVE GRAND FOR FIVE MINUTES, THAT WOULD BE FIVE THOUSAND ENGLISH POUNDS... NOT YOUR WEAK AND FEABLE AMERICAN DOLLARS LAMO!

WORKS OUT TO ROUGHLY $1,500.00 USD PER MINUTE... IF YOU CHAPS CAN HANDLE IT THAT IS.

:D

Plus of course a named credit for any and all brave souls who would want to be publicly associated with said project!

Hmf.

Check your chuffmail, Chuff.

Not the inbox here; the e-mail you provided at the beginning of this fracas.

you won't be sorry for taking a few minutes to do that. Especially since now you have brought up MY bailiwick: pre-production/development, as in layout and s'boards.

;)

[I]I'll work 10 hours a day for $350.

Andreas does the photoshop posters for Paramount, gets $700 per day at 7 hours plus an hour off for lunch.

You do the math as to which is a better deal.[/I]

Check your chuffmail, Chuff.

Not the inbox here; the e-mail you provided at the beginning of this fracas.

you won't be sorry for taking a few minutes to do that. Especially since now you have brought up MY bailiwick: pre-production/development, as in layout and s'boards.

;)

Nope... nothing there... sorry.

ekhornbeck@hotmail.com

try again please

So why didn't you state pounds instead of saying dollars? It would be nice if people soliciting artists posted compensation in their native currency, as this is an international forum. Most people here are smart enough to find a currency converter online.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

So why didn't you state pounds instead of saying dollars? It would be nice if people soliciting artists posted compensation in their native currency, as this is an international forum. Most people here are smart enough to find a currency converter online.

Aloha,
the Ape

Well i do apologise Ape... none intended.

I didn't realise until the dollar sign started to pop up, which is when i thought it best to set the record straight, thats all mate

???

How odd, Howard Moon. Noel here just sent you 2 more e-mails in the interim and no mailer-daemons reared their ugly heads...

[I]I'll work 10 hours a day for $350.

Andreas does the photoshop posters for Paramount, gets $700 per day at 7 hours plus an hour off for lunch.

You do the math as to which is a better deal.[/I]

don't know.

try again though, maybe sir spamalot picked them out or something?

and in addition...

I think we do need to explain to El Chuffo that he's coming here as a writer - maybe credied, maybe not - asking animators to do stuff that may or may not be beholden unto IATSE approved "stuff".

Kinda like when the WGA tried to "eat IATSE like a Romero zombie spying a BBW on the horizon".

someone link Chuff to something pertinent to this, please...

[I]I'll work 10 hours a day for $350.

Andreas does the photoshop posters for Paramount, gets $700 per day at 7 hours plus an hour off for lunch.

You do the math as to which is a better deal.[/I]

Well then...

Let's forget e-mail. Maybe your hotmail hates my yahoo. Who cares, right? We're having fun right here, right now.

I'll do it for you for PRE-PAID travel and accom to places where you want someone like me to spruik your content, mate. Perth and Melbourne.

The cost to Perth (and staying in Perth for 6 days) is about a third of the conversion rate from 5000 UK pounds to AusD. That's the "advance". Concrete, unlike Paypal bullshit and back-end deals. As I stated in m e-mail.

If you come through on that, I come through for you.

And I've been an animated short film finalist twice and illustrated for Wein, Baron, Grell, O'Neil and GAIMAN.

I MORE THAN ENOUGH fit the bill for you.

Welcome to the Eureka Stockade 2010, pommie boy.

[I]I'll work 10 hours a day for $350.

Andreas does the photoshop posters for Paramount, gets $700 per day at 7 hours plus an hour off for lunch.

You do the math as to which is a better deal.[/I]

I guess someone bothered to wiki "IATSE".

[I]I'll work 10 hours a day for $350.

Andreas does the photoshop posters for Paramount, gets $700 per day at 7 hours plus an hour off for lunch.

You do the math as to which is a better deal.[/I]

Guys... calm down ok.

Firstly, i need a team of animators... once i have a team on standby, aka, i know that i won't be wasting my time, i can then set about the soundtrack, and hire a lead animator to organise the graphics pack for the team to work from.

and yes, i am coming here from a writers pointof view... but hey, i am a writer!

I'm not aggro, here, Chuffalini. I'm being Noel to your Howard Moon.

Because I myself went through all of this myself, being a published writer, in 2007-2008, after having taught myself to animate.

You have it easy here compared to what I went through.

[I]I'll work 10 hours a day for $350.

Andreas does the photoshop posters for Paramount, gets $700 per day at 7 hours plus an hour off for lunch.

You do the math as to which is a better deal.[/I]

and don't forget, I'm not having a go at you, nor am I supporting the rorting of creative professionals for in reason.

Part of the reaction comes from previous asswi-- uhm, people -- coming here (and to similar ent. industry boards in Australia) and actually trying to rort the funding bodies and tax-payer fueled monies by getting animators and VO talent to sign on. pretending it's some kind of indie-project.

Which now in Australia is flat out illegal even though dumb-ass/atrophied-brain dimwit Gen Y's don't bother to learn that and try such schemes anyway.

If you offered a GUARANTEE here that you would NOT approach any funding bodies EVER, then people might be more receptive.

[I]I'll work 10 hours a day for $350.

Andreas does the photoshop posters for Paramount, gets $700 per day at 7 hours plus an hour off for lunch.

You do the math as to which is a better deal.[/I]

chuff, chuff, chuff - you SO need a production cooridinator.

>> Firstly, i need a team of animators... once i have a team on standby, aka, i know that i won't be wasting my time, i can then set about the soundtrack, and hire a lead animator to organise the graphics pack for the team to work from.

FIRSTLY you need a schedule and need to stop thinking in a too linear fashion.

Secondly - your "lead animator" should be animating and telling other animators what to do and when. They MAY be able to coordinate the graphics and then do the animation but when production starts rolling, they won't be able to do both.

Thirdly - you start recording NOW. Not when you have a "team ready" because freelancers don't work that way. They don't wait around for you to tell them when YOU"RE ready. You contract them to work with start and end dates and YOU better be ready when that time comes.

So set a date - say you want to start production in 6 months. Get the feelers out for animators - you're going to have to review resumes and reels and work on getting a LONG list of potentials. then as you get closer to production date, try to hire a short list.

In the meantime, write, record, storyboard, photograph and get your assets in a row.

Good luck.

Back in 2005, The first animated short I ever did was pretty much what Chufflink is asking for, only a bit more original – I used The Incredible Melting Man confronting the most put-upon film critic in my country, in an “emerald city” based on the Logie Award (it’s basically an Australian Emmy award). In a “Dorothy meets the Wizard” scenario, Melty asks for funding instead of a trip home to Kansas. The Critic (as the Wizard) spoke like Jabba the Hut, used references to Bakshi, James Whale, made fun of Jan DeBont, and like Jabba, had subtitles. I used the critic’s face with the lower jaw cut out just like that clip Chuff linked here, only I did mine in between Dec 2004-Jan 2005, way before that clip. Cut out animated mockery goes back decades before that (at least as far as the Monty Python animated segments). My first go at this sub-genre took 31 work days at a min. Of 8 hours per day.

It was lip-synch HELL, even using Flash 5. I painted my own BG’s, designed some wacky “Bakshi meets Miyazaki for Pride Parade costumes” characters, did the bit of music and all the voices. And still, the damn lip-synch took at least 1/3rd if not 2/5ths of the time, and that was with the freedom of using my own script (which was still a decent chunk of dialogue with mostly satirical comedic timing, such as Sir Chuff-a-lot is asking for.

So even doing it via my El Cheapo method, I reckon for Chuff’s 5 min increment, it would take at *least* 6 days of work that would be hell on my lower lumbar.

Thus, Chuff, in the interest of helping you avoid wasting your time, and as a fellow writer, allow me to help you out, using what I learned from other animators speaking candidly about what would help them “say yes”:

1. You need to somehow show you appreciate the physical wear-and-tear your project will take on animators.

2. When I was in your position and attempting to source out a team, an 800lb Gorilla ALWAYS tap-danced into the room, doffed his silken top-hat, removed his opera gloves, shook my hand and said,

“Good to meet you, old boy. My name is ‘What professional and REAL publication credits do you have, and no, vanity press and bloggery does not count”. Yes, a long name to remember, but you are going to hear it with every reply, so best to memorize it now, and have a real answer ready.”

There's more, but if you don't address these first 2 issues, no matter what you think, you won't get your 18. You won't likely get 5. And you need the 5 to get the other 13, and you need at least one person to sign on first to get the full five.

Hope that helps.

[I]I'll work 10 hours a day for $350.

Andreas does the photoshop posters for Paramount, gets $700 per day at 7 hours plus an hour off for lunch.

You do the math as to which is a better deal.[/I]