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getting it off the ground

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getting it off the ground

Hey guys,
Well I have a grand plan. Very little money and even less talent. Not a very good start I know.
Anyway, I want to create a 3 min 2d animation done in the good old Warner Bros. style with about 13 scenes (some of these will be duplicates with minor alterations). One major character, a few cameos (about 8) and crowd scene.
So I figure about $10,000 worth of action.

I have no real hope of pulling this off on my own.
I really want to make this happen against all the odds.

Any price slashing ideas?

cartoon muso's picture
Music is Animated!

Music is Animated!

most people here have told you everything relevant you need to know. so here is an idea how you can slash prices -

1) Cut the length & tighten it as much as possible, pre-edit the footage before it goes into animation, so you do only the footage you need.

2) See how many things you can build in that can be reused (without screwing up quality or narrative)

3) How much can you limit animation i.e. keep the flourishes for money shots and use acting more than physicality.

4) My fav use Flash or Toon Boom as much as possible and wherever possible

does not mean you can do the whole thing for $10,000, but you could get a lot more done.

Hey thanks heaps Skinny,

These are things I will really make priorities while piecing this project together.

Could you just expand on this a bit, I'm not quite sure I know what you mean here:

3) How much can you limit animation i.e. keep the flourishes for money shots and use acting more than physicality.

Also on this point:

4) My fav use Flash or Toon Boom as much as possible and wherever possible

How easy/hard is Toon Boom to learn (given that I have some flash, illustrator and photoshop experience but limited 3D StudioMax and Maya experience)?
It looks like it would be great for me since I tend to think in terms of camera angles and scenes .

Music is Animated!

Thanks alot for your comments Laurence,

I understand where you're coming from.
I probably came off as really niave reading back what i've posted and I'm sorry for that.
Just a few things I should clear up.
I'm not really suggesting that I want to have a hand drawn or even cell by cell computer generated animation. I was more trying to make the distinction between general character/design styles. Say, WB "looking" characters as apposed to manga or South Park or Hello Kitty.
I understand many of constraints of animation. I'm thinking more along the lines of finding out where the biggest costs occur in the process. I'm assuming character design, walk cycles and storyboarding would be big factors.
As far as getting companies to take on your ideas for nothing... whoa! I've been in the music industry for 15 years. I know better than most that if I you stand around asking for a hand out you'll sit at the back of the line 'til you're old and grey (whichI almost am).
I'll pay what I need to pay to get this done. But I'll use every means possible to find a way to get the same result for less $$

So maybe after all that I should rephrase...
What are the most costly parts of doing an animation?
What can a client provide to assist the process and keep costs down?

Music is Animated!

Laurence spoke of being realistic, and I agree with him completely on what he said.

Let's crunch some numbers here for you, in the interest of being realistic;

3 minutes of animation is 4320 frames--or technically that many possible drawings--assuming just one layer of animation and a background.
The footage count is around 270 feet- ( 16 frames = 1 foot of film, so 4320/ 16 = 270 feet)
That's also if its shot on "one's" each frame being shot--to give a really fluid, full look to the animation--which quite a few features employ.
If you shot it on "two's" then you can HALF that frame-count, because you shoot each drawing twice--that brings the count to 2160 frames (or possible drawings).
Now that is an approximate MAXIMUM frame count--give that you want three minutes.
If you add more layers, or more complexity to the peice, the count will rise. The safe approximate number here is probably around 3000-3500 frames to do what you want.
A typical film student will complete a 1 minute film--which is about 90 feet of animation--in about 3-4 months. That's from pre- to post.

Now, why those crunchy numbers?

This is NOT not do-able.
A single person can create a 3 minute 2D short ij the Warner Bros style and do so well inside a year.

Talent is not a constant--its a variable.
You say you have less talent but are you really saying you have more laziness? Or less motivation and more being psyched out?
Applying your focus in this in a methodical way will produce results. I've seen that in dedicated students--people who begain with mediocre talents and blossomed into quite formidable artists.
The effort expended in this is directly proportional to the outcome.

What keeps most people from trying it is fear, and a unwillingness to be persistent.
There's always going to be some fucktard by our shoulders whispering into our ear that "it cannot be done, and you are going to fail".
The key to success in this is to belligerently ignore them and just do it.

You can teach yourself how to do this, all on your own.
The materials are there, the standards are there to gauge yourself by--the equipment is there.
So is the time--for most people, and so is the focus and drive.
One just has to dust it off and use it.
The person that says they "can't" is really saying they stopped trying and settled for not doing.

The degree of personal satisfaction you will get from tackling this yourself--instead of letting $10,000 leap from your wallet--will be worth millions in comparision AND you'll have picked up something life-long in the process.

That's the hope that sits in front of you.
The odds stridently remain in your favour as long as you do not succumb to the one great odds-beater in life; giving up.

You wanted a price slashing idea--there it is. It might take you 10 years of your time, probably cost you less that $1000--and reap you an emotional fortune thereafter.

"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)

Thank you so much Ken.
That is some really inspirational stuff especially for someone like me who as always wanted to do this but never really followed it though.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) I already have a passion which I work very hard on which is my music. I actually do beleive that at the pace i go with my drawing and animation I will be a reasonable talent in 10 years and your words have helped reinforce that for me (thanks again)
More pressing for my though is the idea of getting this thing (oh yeah, it's a music video but the way) done inside a year while record co.'s are still hovering and our sound is still relatively fresh in there ears.
I'd love nothing more than to do it on my own but the truth is I don't have the talent or time to achieve it in the near future. I certainly want to contribute buit I fear the rest of the dream will cost me.

Music is Animated!

I'm not as seasoned in the biz as Ken or many other (extremely talented and knowledgeable) people here, but I have been around the block once or twice in my own little area of the country.

My initial reaction is that your budget is quite low for what you are describing...but...you mentioned repeated scenes, and you seem quite open to cost cutting ideas...and...it's really tough to quote a price for something like this without a full understanding of the project.

So, I guess my advice would be to find an animator/small studio that is willing to sit down with you and gain a full understanding of what you're trying to produce. Then, allow them to suggest ways of pulling the final piece closer to your budget--fewer characters, limited animation, simple stylized designs, story changes...

I'm still quite skeptical it'll come in for $10K, but if you're flexible with design, style, and story, you'd be surprised how creative some people can be.

Good luck!

Not really sure if this is going to be helpfull but...

Do you have a script? Drawing aside for a second, a script is a must for your project. Then do some thumb nails, doodles, so on of the images that fit your idea. Rough only

In my opinion you should next do a very rough story board, maybe taping togeather your doodles with captions. It would be a good idea to do a recording of the dialog and/or narration that is in your script.

I think you will have the foundation to push your project forward once you get this far. You should have enough to put an animatic togeather which would be very helpful to you.

All the cost of your project could be noodle out at this point. From this, I think, you could make some hard choices.

You will have in hand, a script, rough drawings, voice recording of the script, story board, and hopefully your first animatice.

Your script might have only one scene therefore only one backgound, and that is money saved. Your script might have four character but you only see one on screen with the others off screen. You will not know were your cost are going to be untill you get a little thought into the process.

This is only my opinion.

Thanks Wantobe,

Yep,
I've done some rough story boarding

I have some reference characters that I'd like to use as "inspiration" for my own characters. I've started some rough character design as well.
Anyone seen walk cycle on flash resembling that of Shaggy from Scooby Doo?

I have also timed out each scene with beat points across the song.

The beauty part is that there is no dialogue since it's for a music video.

Much of it is a chase scene of sorts so I figure I might try using some POV done simply with a perspective view of a road with the same 3 or 4 houses and trees and such wizzing by.
Seen any Tut's on how to do this effectively and efficietly?

I can run you through the rough idea:

Scene 1: Big City Scyscraper
Pan up to Surfer on top of building (Superman-esque)
Jumps off
Falls through manhole

Scene 2: surfs through sewer (some POV here)

Scene 3: pops up out of new manhole onto street
Land in little car cruises down road (some POV)
Hit house

Scene 4: crashed into lounge room
thugs watching TV
(beat) cheeky wave

Scene 5: running down street thugs in chase (some POV)
grabs kids skateboard running past
skating down street thugs in chase (some POV)

Scene 6: hits half pipe over and lands on road (some POV)

Scene 7: skating down street past drive through fats food
grab food on way past
(beat) cheeky wave
skating down street thugs in chase (some POV)
drops down manhole

Scene 8: (AS Scene 2: surfs through sewer (some POV here))

Scene 9: Up though stage w/ band playing
grabs guitar on way past
(beat) cheeky wave
flying though the air playing guitar

Scene 10: lands on crowd and crowd surfs to front of stage

Scene 11: angry band surrounding surfer
(beat) cheeky wave

FADE

All this is curretnly being laid out for timing and scene structure in Flash with stick figures

I feel like I can acheive quite a bit of this on my own but altimately I need someone with
a)that inate sense of timing a great animator has
and b) a good sense of character design

Music is Animated!

Thats going to be complicated. And complicated = expensive.

Speaking from a Flash stand point, you have it backwards. Action is hard. It would be easier if it was the band playing and singing rather than people diving off buildings, surfing through sewers and a car chase.

You can get your video done for $10,000 but it will be far from looking the way you describe it.

Aloha,
the Ape

...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."

Well,
There's always one on a forum isn't there?
I don't mean to insult you Laurence but you seem incredibly negitive in almost every post I read.

1. You probably shouldn't suppose how much I know or don't know
2. You probably shouldn't suppose how much determination I have
3. You probably shouldn't suppose how much work I thought it would take do do this.

Since I've been listening to you tell me I can't do this in the last 3 or 4 days I have:
1. shown my "waste of time" stick figure mock up to 3 different local animators who are still in school and keen to help me develop it (just to add to there show reels)
2. had a cartoonist who does the kind of work I like, look at my basic main character design. He is begining to turning it into a set of usable action poses that I can use as basis for a moving character.
3. trialed a technique suggested by a friend of mine who makes games to get that "running down the road" effect I was talking about

I have a long way to go but I'm moving forward not dwelling on what I can't do.

Anyone else got any "helpful" suggestions?

Music is Animated!

Yeah - keep at it! If you really want to do this, you'll find a way.

When I was working on my first film, I told all my friends that it would be in the Spike and Mike show when it was done. With the exception of my wife, they all laughed at me. A year or so later, they were all asking for comps into the show so they could see my film alongside all the others.

No reason you can't do it if you really want to. Some factors (costs, production time, etc) may change, but if the overall goal is to complete it, the rest of the stuff is all just steps along the path anyway.

give me the 10k ill make it for you...it wont be any good, but i will get it done on budget

www.EvilAsSin.com
for more movies and downloads

the fastest polygon in the west!

YEEEEEHHHHAAAAA!

give me the 10k ill make it for you...it wont be any good, but i will get it done on budget

That's the spirit!

Music is Animated!