If you want to be an animator or a concept artist don't sign up for any school that doesn't either offer a deep classical fine arts program and classical animation background as part of the diploma, or list these as prerequisites. Watch out for programs that are entirely computer based.
I absolutely agree with everything with said by Ken- on every point.
I have seen a ton of folks who depend on the computer (epecially) in a school situation and then they can't get jobs when they graduate.
Keep in mind if we are working some place we are only seeing the folks with jobs- not the ones who didn't make it.
If someone asks about skills- I mention drawing. Is that the only to get a job- no. But why not give them information that will help them progress.
By the way, DSB, I didn't curse- rarely do- I just left some blanks and YOU filled them in:D...you pounced! It could have been a compliment.
I have been around long enough to know there is no one way to make it in this business- just as the range of jobs has expanded so has the skill sets (plural).
Thanks.
At times, I know I sound dogmatic - But I am not- I am confident about what I feel folks need.
I spent the last few hours reading this whole board, and it helped a lot. Personally I have wanted to be an animator all my life. My community college didn't offer any animation courses, so I got my associates in film studies. Unfortunately all my life my formal art training has been less than desirable. I was in AP art classes, but it was taught by a softball coach, so it was basically some guy saying "draw this" and then went back to schmooze with the cheerleaders. Unfortunately I have developed my talent solely on using references, and I'm not really good at life drawing which I feel limited me greatly. As far as reference I'm pretty good at duplicating art or photographs, but unfortunately not being able to free myself have really been hard on the self esteem. Most of my work is here: http://mindseye90.deviantart.com/gallery/
But as I said it is referenced.
My question is after that long back story is; am I a lost cause or do I still have a shot at making it, and if so does anyone know any schools that pride themselves in teaching the needed foundations and produce a generally good artist? I've been looking at these schools mainly;
I got into Ringling as an illustrator, but they denied me into the animation program, got into all the above schools, and I guess I'm just hoping someone can point me into the right direction.
Maybe discipline wasn’t the exact word I should have used. Being hauled over the coals for not going back and improving early stuff is more what I need.
I don't understand this at all. Why would you look back. Ever forward.
I agree with the basic importance of drawing ability. But, as Chuck Jones has said, it's not about what the drawing looks like so much as what it's doing. It needs to exist within a sequence to be animation. And that leads into acting and, more importantly, storytelling.
The basic problem I see with most computer animation (including a lot of my own) are basic, storytelling issues. Even in a comic book panel, you have to be able to answer questions like, "What's the subject of this shot, and what's it doing?" at a glance. A lot of this has to do with the composition of the shot, itself. Classic animators want the camera to stay fixed on head-to-toe shots to showcase the character animation, when this is just weak cinematography. CG animators want to bounce the camera around like a crazy ball, when this is just distraction. Clarity must trump coolness.
Beyond that, you have to know what your real key frames are, and how long they should hold. You could even get more abstract and ask, "What's the character thinking at this point?" In a lot of ways, I like Clampett and Tashlin better, but Chuck Jones could make characters think abstractly better than anyone at Warner's. And that adds a special kind of suspense-- which is a key ingredient to solid, entertaining storytelling.
And yet, there are a hell of a lot of "industry pros" who don't bother with reading scripts. Unless there's a hook-up, they don't care what shot precedes or follows the one they're working on. In one year at animation school, I encountered more than a few prima donnas who didn't know the first thing about story-- which is the one thing I DO know. Every shot you work on is not the climax of the show or movie. As sacreligious as this seems to a lot of professional animators, telling the story well is always more important than your demo reel.
When the basics of animation were discovered, drawing was the most advanced technique out there. In most ways, it's still the most subtle and organic. But to the average person outside the industry, medium is very secondary, and should be. You can't draw things like line of action or solid structure without understanding them, but you can understand them without being able to draw them perfectly.
A combination of bad scripts and the ignorance of these basic rules are what's wrong with most animation today. And most of it's crap.
I'm hoping VFS's two year program will reduce the art school BS. I think of it as a trade school where I'm learning a specific craft, and meeting some cool people, with any luck. I hope it works out that way.
I am very keen when it come to Animation and i have problem to know which country has the best of study when it come to studying Animation and the school in the country that can offer what i expected.
Have applied to one in my country and they promise all they can not offer and i later discovered that i have wasted the money.
The buttom line is i need the country that have schools that can offer me what i need to be a world class animator and other multimedia related program.
Hi. I just got out of high school and I've decided that I want to pursue an education in 2d/3d animation but to be quite honest, I don't want to go to school another four years. I recently found out about a few schools that offer a bachelors degree that can be obtained in about two years time (Expression College and Full Sail). Full Sail looks like the better choice to me.
I just spoke to an animation director this week who has a very impressive resume (I haven't asked his permission so can't give his name) and he complained about the problems he's having with the younger animators (3D) coming his way who don't have enough classical drawing and animating background. He's very busy, but interested in teaching a course for us just because we are trying to give a deeper education than many schools, and because he believes the industry needs animators who have had experience doing it with a pencil first.
In speaking with other companies, I've been told that once in awhile someone does pop up who can animate very well without drawing background, but it's very, very rare.
Part of this debate has to do with quality, with art. It makes for a pretty dismal world when all that matters is turning something out as cheaply as possible and making a quick buck, versus creating something of value that
will last ( and coincidentally, over the long haul will be much more lucrative).
It also has to do with educating the next generation, and what our obligations are.
Finally, it impacts the world we live in. The quality of popular culture permeates our lives.
I am from india. I hve planned to do my Media arts and animations in the Art institute of toronto. This course covers both 2d animation and the 3d animation( 18 months course). I just want to know how is the art institute of toronto. I also saw college like seneca and humber, canada. so ppl please tell how to proceed with this? I am looking for colleges around toronto.
First of all, take a deep breath and relax. There is no expiration date on learning animation ("You're 21? Forget it...":D).
Take some art classes wherever you can, or wherever you're going. Life drawing, basic drawing - whatever will help you hone your skills. Put together a portfolio and start submitting it to the schools you're interested in. Use this time to look into different aspects of the animation process and think about where you might fit into the process (story, character design, animation, TD...). Research those jobs to find out what skills are desired to land the position, and start exploring those areas.
Again, relax. You're plenty young enough to get started now with no detrimental effect to your (long-term) career.
Better yet, I got some sleep. Thanks for the reassurance.
Anyway, I think I'd be doing myself a disservice heading back to Columbia College next year if I want to tackle this thing as seriously as I do. So, I'll try to somehow get into a good animation school not yet closed for the Fall semester. Unfortunately a lot of them are. So let get to specific questions instead of a general blur
I know the Art Institute is fairly painless and easy applying. I'm considering that as a step up - a bridge into Ringling, SCAD, CalArts, Sheridan, or one of the top schools. How is the Institute's animation department? Does anyone have any experience or heard any first hand opinions on it? I can't find any work on their website, which isn't a good sign.
Another question, do you know any top schools that are still accepting for the Fall semester - or have some schools been known to make exceptions at times? If not, can you somehow come in during the spring 2007 semester or is it all done on a yearly basis?
Basically, I'm looking for advice from you guys who seem very knowledgable, on what you'd do if you were in this pickle. Not yet a sophmore, but kind of closed out from sophmore applications, and searching to get into a school more serious than your previous bad decision as soon as possible. And again, thanks for the reassurance. I needed that. :)
...but the real meat in the biz is the creative stuff. That's what most folks have their eyes on--that's where most of the satisfaction appears to be.
There's always going to be a need for the "peons" ( excuse that term, but it fits) to support the creative end. BGs need colouring, models need rigging, all manner of technical jobs abound......they are not as sexy as the creative jobs, but they are just as necessary.
I guess I view what's considered "creative" differently. I've always considered background painting a job done by an artist, and therefore a creative job. I've certainly never though of Eyvind Earle or Ty Wong as "peons." Modeling and rigging require tremendous amounts of creativity. There's nothing rote or repetitive - the hallmarks of "peon" jobs - involved in modeling a character that looks good and deforms well. And rigging requires a whole different type of creative thought in order to deliver a rig that is easy for an animator to use.
I've had many students come into my intro to 3D class absolutely convinced that they wanted to be animators, and left with a new career goal of modeling, rigging, or texturing. None of them seemed to think they were settling for a non-creative job, and they were, and are, correct.
Keep in mind if we are working some place we are only seeing the folks with jobs- not the ones who didn't make it.
Very true - just as we're not seeing those who have drawing skills who didn't make it, for whatever reason. Cuts both ways, my friend.
By the way, DSB, I didn't curse- rarely do- I just left some blanks and YOU filled them in:D...you pounced! It could have been a compliment.
Sure, Larry - most people disguise compliments in a post - especially when they spend the rest of the post hurling passive-aggressive insults. But I guess I'm not surprised - It's just more of the same.
Have you heard about Expression College in Emeryville (next to Pixar actually ...) ? (http://www.expression.edu/)
They have a 2-year program that seems to be interesting ...
^_^
Personally, I graduated from Sonoma State University about 12 years ago, before I realized I wanted to draw--thus, a degree in English.
However, as a teacher I get to see presentations from a good many schools, including a terrific presentation last year from Expression. They appear to be pretty tied into the industry and have some terrific collaboration oriented projects. In fact, I have a couple of their promo CDs in my desk drawer that show some 2D, some 3D, as well as some sound design elements working together pretty strongly.
And yet, there are a hell of a lot of "industry pros" who don't bother with reading scripts. Unless there's a hook-up, they don't care what shot precedes or follows the one they're working on. In one year at animation school, I encountered more than a few prima donnas who didn't know the first thing about story-- which is the one thing I DO know. Every shot you work on is not the climax of the show or movie. As sacreligious as this seems to a lot of professional animators, telling the story well is always more important than your demo reel.
Lest all the newcomers fearfully believe the old-timers and experienced voices here are beating them all with a stick over this--the above points out a truism that offers everyone some hope.
Niche talent works for and against people.
There are people with a lot of years under their belts that fall into the category of having niche talent.
As stated above, there are people that get fixated on a specialty to the degree that they lose sight of that specialized aspect in light of the whole process.
This becomes a dogmatic thing, of sorts--because its really up to the individual to guide their own career to either avoid this trait or indulge in it.
Everyone is going to be different, and get different results.
For some folks, its works out just fine approaching things this way, for others the "dogma" dogs them detrimentally ( Oh, I love that pun...)
The key to this is even those ole dogs (another pun! Wooooo!) can be caught missing that one needed trick and a newcomer with a more expanded skill set can slide into a job the experienced talent might have taken.
That's actually happening a fair bit with computer skills these days.
You don't HAVE TO BE a specialist to make it(or last) in the biz.
I feel I understand story, the work that I have done for the past 15 years certainly suggests I know story, but I don't feel I've applied myself to anything more than a shallow exploration of story.
In my case I use a short-list of simple principles that, fortunately, have never failed me. I'm not the best draftsman around, I can draw my way of the ubiquitous damp paper sack but it can be a struggle somedays.
I can generate an idea fairly easily, but getting it down on paper can take effort. I can follow directions and I understand my place in the overall process. I have no ambitions with the work aside from getting the job done, and trying to bring some small thing from myself to it.
That has worked for about 20+ years now.
There's no reason something similar cannot work for anyone else.
The more you know, the more you can do.....the more you can offer--and the more offers that will come your way.
—
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
The Art Institute has no portfolio requirement for admission - only the desire to learn and the cash to pay the tuition. It's a "accept all who apply" school, and their results are a mixed bag, as you'd expect from an art school that lets everyone (even those with no previous experience) in.
On the other hand, Will Vinton is the current artist in residence at the Portland school, and I don't think he'd risk his reputation on a school that's not good. I know a few people who are teaching or have taught at an AI campus, and they're good, solid artists. Like any school, you get out of it what you put into it.
The Art Institute has no portfolio requirement for admission - only the desire to learn and the cash to pay the tuition. It's a "accept all who apply" school, and their results are a mixed bag, as you'd expect from an art school that lets everyone (even those with no previous experience) in.
On the other hand, Will Vinton is the current artist in residence at the Portland school, and I don't think he'd risk his reputation on a school that's not good. I know a few people who are teaching or have taught at an AI campus, and they're good, solid artists. Like any school, you get out of it what you put into it.
I have to agree with DSB. I taught at AI Vancouver for almost two years--leaving in this past March.
That campus has some great instructors, but its programs are in a state of flux. They are still in tranisiton from the former CDIS ( Centre for Digital Imaging and Sound school) which AI bought out, and they haven't quite got their footing...yet. Still, the instructors have helped even out some of the rougher patches the programs have.
The students are a real mixed bag, as was said--because there are a LOT of students coming in with very weak art skills but very strong desire to do professional art.
What DSB also said about no expiration date on this stuff needs to be repeated over and over.
Time and again, I've seen students enter programs that were not prepared for what they encountered in the programs, in regards to their level of art skills.
The more development you make ON YOUR OWN, the more these schools can help you.
Its next to impossible to have a non-artist enter any of these schools and emerge a professional grade artist. Sorry, that just does not happen.
My advice is that if your skills are weak to mediocre to modest, to then hold off on getting into a animation school for about two years. In that meatime, to work on your drawing/art skills as much as possible.
Focus on the basic, forget about software skills--as they will cover those in the programs. Get as solid a foundation in drawing appealing commerical looking work as possible--and then jump into the schools.
The extra time you take will be better spent because the schools will help hone your basic abilities, and add the technical knowledge you need.
Think of it like military service--you need to come to it reasonably fit (artistically) in order to get the most out of the training.
There is no rush here, the industry will be around for decades yet----entertainment isn't going to go away.
—
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
If the tradeoff was the two extra years beyond those got you a better ot more supportive education, would it make a difference?
Well, see Full Sail was recently in the top ten list of animation schools in North America so I assume the two year program there should be supportive enough.
Are we talking about The School of the Art Institute of Chicago, or just the Art Institute chain? SARIC is one of the best art schools in the country, whereas the AI chain is more about your money than your education. SARIC, however, I think is more of a fine art school (meaning you'll probably be producing animations from rice or bottle caps) as far as I know. But I hear SARIC has a number of people who work at Pixar and other such animation places.
I just got accepted to Calarts (huzzah!), and that would top my list for best schools as well as Ringling, if you're more 3d oriented.
Thanks Ken. I am confident in my art skills. I'm not entirely where I want to be, but I'm well on my way there. I took high school art classes, and more so than that filled tons and tons of sketchbooks. I got a decent ammount of finished pieces I'm proud of - paintings, charcoal, drawings, etc. Won some awards for that. Right now I'm setting up summer life drawing classes 2-3 times a week, and am studying Preston Blair's book for cartoon structure. So I'd say I'm ready.
That said, I don't neccesarily want to take a year or two off, but I also don't want to keep going in my current school's animation program to quickly push through when the graduate's work is just not there at this school. I mean, obviously it's up to the individual to do good work, but I think the school holds some responsibility in the development of graduates. And their graduate work is just not good fundamentally at all.
You're advice really opens up other options for me. I could take a cheap community college for a year and fill out educational requirements while waiting until Fall 07's programs open up. In the meantime, setting up the lifedrawing classes for 2-3 days a week, year round. I could work, bank some money for campus life, and free up time by getting math, history, science, and the like out of the way in chunks before I really get into the animation. I could also spend a great ammount of time working on my portfolio to send in. I literally haven't thought of it before you just mentioned it. Though I know my work's good, it still makes sense taking the time off compared to learning 3 different art school's animation department and trying to jump school to school year by year.
Also, I wouldn't have to stop animating. I got a light table, acme pegs. I really want to find time to try out fundamental animation tests characters lifting weight, walks, the thinking character. I got friends in Columbia that I still hang out with, who I could go in with and pencil test my work.. Honestly, I think that's the front runner, as much as I desperately want to stay in an art school. And if my skills are not entirely there, they're certainly no more than a year off.. I don't want to give the impression this is an abrupt decision. I've been practicing a long time, and very hard - but a year of lifedrawing and daily drawing will only help.
Anyway, thank you for the advice. I'm not sure of my decision yet, but the option you opened up of slowing down and being entirely prepared for fall 2007 really changes things, and eases my mind.
Are we talking about The School of the Art Institute of Chicago, or just the Art Institute chain? SARIC is one of the best art schools in the country, whereas the AI chain is more about your money than your education. SARIC, however, I think is more of a fine art school (meaning you'll probably be producing animations from rice or bottle caps) as far as I know. But I hear SARIC has a number of people who work at Pixar and other such animation places.
Yes, it's the Art Institute of Chicago. Sorry if I gave anyone the wrong impression. It's definitely a reputable school, though I haven't heard very much about the school like I have of SCAD, Ringling, CalArts, etc. It's not got the problems of the other Art Institutes from what I heard.
Just be aware that when you apply for jobs you'll be competing with people who have developed fine art (traditional) skills, classical as well as computer animation and a broad based education in animation. Our fourth year students learn 3D computer animation with an emphasis on animating: they definitely find that the two years of classical animation, life drawing, anatomy as well as 2D computer animation are more than useful- they allow them to animate more quickly at a higher level. They have portfolios and demo reels that are getting them the jobs they want. You have your whole life ahead of you and you need to take your time and get a strong foundation. Try checking out web sites for major 3D companies. You'll hear exactly what I've just told you.
I looked through your forum to find out more about renowned schools in California.
I currently live in San Francisco and I am a little lost in deciding which school to go to :confused: : Art Institute ? Academy of Art ? ... or simply San Francisco State University ?
AI and Academy or Art are way too expensive for me ... Is it worth to put that much money in animation education ? While, after all, the thing that matters is talent ... And this is what you show in your reel, right ?
If you have any recommendation and feedback to give me, I would really appreciate.
Thanks in advance :)
MLeen -
Hehe probably wanna go back through this entire thread and check what the consensus is.
While of course your talent matters, the institution you attend plays a HUGE part in your success: The ability of the faculty in honing your talents, placing you in a good work environment, and teaching you the skill set that you'll need to survive in the real world.
If "all that mattered" was your talent, well then you could attend a cheap community college and do just fine. Then we'd really have no reason to have great schools like Ringling or SCAD in the first place.
As far as California, I can't really help you out there! Sorry for ranting and then leaving you high and dry. How far are you from CalArts?
1 Timothy 4:12 - "Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity."
My opinion doesn't matter too much -- I've only been to one animation school in this country and think highly of it, but you're the one who has to go so it's going to depend on what you think.
I wasn't attacking Full Sail; I actually just meant that generally. For you to ask if it's worth it is moot if time is the priority, since four years will never be two years. You'll get a lot of advice on here that the student makes the experience, but there's something to be said about how the format aids the student's ability to maximize their own potential.
I'd ask what place they were on the list, or find out who made the list. SCAD says they're in the top three because it's vague enough to not say which place it is, to find they come in 3rd. That's a bit of common sense since if they were 2nd or 1st they'd come right out and say that, but the large schools that have a real focus on animation and have other classes (aka not the 2 or 3 industry guys who made their own small deal)...seems like there IS only 10 in the U.S.
Just keep a watchful eye out for the facts. Best of fortunes.
This thread has been immensely helpful to me in my search for animation schools, and at the moment I'm pretty dedicated to applying to SCAD and Ringling (though I've asked for information to be mailed from a few others).
Anywho, I have a few questions...
First, to anyone knowledgeable about SCAD:
- What are the differences between the animation major and the visual effects major? If I were interested in both, how feasible is it to take visual effects classes on the side to animation? How many of the classes overlap?
- What are the differences between the M.A., M.F.A., and B.F.A. in animation at SCAD? I'll be graduating with a Studio Art major this spring and am looking at possibly attending SCAD in the fall. Which program would likely benefit me more, as I have no real animating experience yet, other than fiddling with Maya and Bryce? I'm banking that it'll probably be the B.F.A., but would like to know what people who have been through the program(s) think.
Second, and this in just a general question:
-Would anyone be willing to show me their portfolio, preferably one that was accepted by Ringling or SCAD? I've never put a portfolio together before, and am not sure what sort of images animation schools would prefer to see, and how a good portfolio is organized, etc. I know the schools' websites have guidelines for portfolios, but seeing some would help immensely.
Thanks guys!
Hey Scruffy! I'm an MFA student at SCAD so I think I can answer some of your questions.... although it seems some really good advice about MFA vs. BFA has already been offered.
As for the differences between Anim and Vis FX. If you look at the examples of student work, you'll get a pretty good idea. Animation is nire character driven (or experimental if that's the way you want to go). They do teach us modeling, rigging, lighting, texturing.... but mostly we animate. We usually use Maya, pencil and paper... sometimes after effects. Vis FX are more technical. I don't completely get everything they do, but it seems to focus more on lighting, partical systems, compositing. They use Maya, but also Houdini, Renderman, etc. They do some great work over there. It would be very easy to take classes from both disciplines. I have a friend who double majored in undergrad and know some students who have tried both out before settling on a major. As MFA students we get 4 free electives and 2 that must be Film and Digital Media electives. So you could major in animation and take 6 FX classes if you wanted.
I would do the MA or MFA if I were you. I, too, majored in studio art in undergrad... though I also majored in film. Many of my fellow grad students were fine arts in undergrad. SCAD will assign you preliminary classes to get you caught up if they think you have what it takes to make it in the program but haven't had the appropriate foundation. The MA is usually seen as a more technical degree. Do that if you would like to improve you skills and get a job. The MFA is more for the creative side. Do the MFA if you would like to pursue your own creative endeavors, if you would like to teach at the college level or if it is important to you to receive a terminal degree. The MFA at SCAD also has more electives and more flexibility.
If you search these boards you can find images of what I included in my portfolio. Definitely not the end all of animation portfolios, but it got me in with an Artistic Honors Fellowship and only 2 preliminary courses (both in Maya which I had little interest in pursuing... but have since come to almost enjoy). Search for web portfolios for SCAD alumni to get good ideas also. I found cupojo.net through this forum. She has good work and a lot of really great links to her classmates. A lot of Calarts students have great web sites, too. Check out aimeemajor.com for her portfolio and links and also animatedbuzz.com.
Larry... you said that Ringling has more industry experienced professors. I'm wondering how much you still follow SCAD's faculty. I admittedly know little about Ringling's faculty. SCAD now has Troy Gustafson (Disney 2D effects animator), Michael Gargiulo ("Robots"/"Jimmy Neutron"), Brian Schindler ("Beowulf"), coming in the spring John Webber (Disney character Animator) and, of course, visiting artist Gary Goldman. Maybe I'm easily impressed, but I think we've got some great professors. I will admit that there are a few that maybe aren't the best. There is definitley a good mix of independant types and studio types. And they're trying to get more studio experienced professors, from what I've heard. It's a shame that Phil left us... and from what I hear the best prof SCAD ever had is out beach bumming on Tybee these days!;) I don't know much about Ringling, because they didn't have an appropriate program for me. It seems like a good school.... but I am very happy at SCAD. Fully recommend it. For anyone who is looking to learn from industry pros, though, I'd say animation mentor is probably where you'll find most of 'em.
If "all that mattered" was your talent, well then you could attend a cheap community college and do just fine.
Part of talent is its ability to be fostered. Since almost all the animation training out there outside the actual job or possibly apprenticeship/mentor programs is nearly identical (especially nowadays) I think the "all that matters is talent" banner is really just saying, all that makes the most substantial difference.
In another thread here someone just said bad attitude + ridiculous skills might not go as far as mediocre talent with a seriousness and a passion behind it...people are always saying that, all the time, so talent exclusively doesn't have a stranglehold. But it is the dependent variable.
My opinion doesn't matter too much -- I've only been to one animation school in this country and think highly of it, but you're the one who has to go so it's going to depend on what you think.
I wasn't attacking Full Sail; I actually just meant that generally. For you to ask if it's worth it is moot if time is the priority, since four years will never be two years. You'll get a lot of advice on here that the student makes the experience, but there's something to be said about how the format aids the student's ability to maximize their own potential.
I'd ask what place they were on the list, or find out who made the list. SCAD says they're in the top three because it's vague enough to not say which place it is, to find they come in 3rd. That's a bit of common sense since if they were 2nd or 1st they'd come right out and say that, but the large schools that have a real focus on animation and have other classes (aka not the 2 or 3 industry guys who made their own small deal)...seems like there IS only 10 in the U.S.
Just keep a watchful eye out for the facts. Best of fortunes.
I'm sorry if I came off as rude, I wasn't trying to lol. Umm, I belive they ranked in at number nine followed by Vancouver Film School at ten. ( 3D world magazine) I mean, it would be a wise choice to choose a school ranked in the top ten rather than choose one not even on there, right?
I've read through most of the thread, and have a question.
I am a senior in highschool at the moment and would like to go to school for animation. I primarily do clay animation, which you can see at me site www.mackproductions.net
I have won a few awards and been in a film festival festival and am proud of my work, but do not know much about computer animation. I have applied to SCAD, and am wondering if there are any schools you would recomend over SCAD that would be good for me?
hey Larry, do you know Glenn Vilppu? That's cool! I've got several of his DVD's and a book. Would have loved to have sitten in on one of his classes. Do ya know if he ever guests at Calarts at all? I've emailed him a couple of times and spoken to his daughter recently but said he was abroad (think it was in Europe?).
I looked through your forum to find out more about renowned schools in California.
I currently live in San Francisco and I am a little lost in deciding which school to go to :confused: : Art Institute ? Academy of Art ? ... or simply San Francisco State University ?
AI and Academy or Art are way too expensive for me ... Is it worth to put that much money in animation education ? While, after all, the thing that matters is talent ... And this is what you show in your reel, right ?
If you have any recommendation and feedback to give me, I would really appreciate.
Thanks in advance :)
MLeen -
Another couple of options in the bay area are De Anza College in Cupertino and Cosgwell in Sunnyvale. De Anza is a community college, so the fees are reasonable, and the program has produced two student Academy Award winners, as well as numerous award-winning films. Probably the most famous alum is Joe Murray, creator of Rocko's Modern Life and Camp Lazlo. Cogswell is a private school, so you may run into some of the cost issues you mentioned. I've worked with a couple of their graduates in the past, and they seemed to get a good education there.
S.F. State's program is very good, and growing. The only drawback I can think of is that it's only a 2-year program; the other 2 years are general ed stuff that most state colleges insist that you take (damn them!)
One negative thing about slowing down, and taking required educational classes at a community college, while taking a year out of art college.. Wouldn't you essentially still have to go to the art college for 3 years worth(animation class by animation class, step by step), in turn upping your overall college pay by whatever the community college costs? Cause I know 12 and 18 hours both cost the same where I go now, and you'd simply be saving yourself a bit of workload. Skipping a year makes more sense, but I've never taken a year off of school altogether. I would need to establish a real discipline not to become a bum. I'm so confused about all this. I want to have a good talk with the parents about it but they don't know much and it's a little frustrating..
Also, does CalArts have any CG animation? Or is it traditionally focused? If so, where do they get jobs at specifically with a traditional focus? I'd be willing to go either traditional or CG for the right job. Obviously you're bound to dabble in both, but whatever gets the better jobs/work would be ideal. Sorry for all the questions but this is really the best place I know to ask.
It depends on your situation. If I was in southern California I'd be checking out a lot of those smaller ones that sprang up around the small groups of hugely experienced people. Me personally, I went to a conventional school (actually state school + community college + private college) for a fine arts degree and then went to a school online (not counted in rankings because it's online and has only animation classes) because it satisfied both goals and was orders of magnitude cheaper.
Semester at Edinboro University of Pennsylvania = 6 grand
Two years of community college to finish my Associates = 5 grand
Third year at the private college bringing me to 98 credits = 10 grand
Animation Mentor = 13,100
(Those were all the costs at the time they were paid for)
So I paid...34,100? And while I still have a little over a term to go thanks to transfering credits, I'm tying up the BA (widening my skillset in the process with traditional art classes at a high level of criticism and peer talent) and I've already graduated from a productive and enriching 18-month animation program with friends, contacts, and a clear demonstrable idea of how to animate in more than one medium.
That's me though. Since I started going away to school before AM, I got a taste of what that was like and I knew I wanted to continue that as a half-way version of living on my own, testing my maturity. I also like the rounded of the liberal arts courses I've taken and staying conditioned with my studios.
Choices =)
If you're curious, no, I don't presently hold a favorable view of Full Sail, but it's also not a directly provable view. From secondhand info from people I know that've gone there, or a few that friends have worked with...it doesn't seem like good preparation. It seems like they're taking advantage of the interest in the field without full support or interaction. There have been quite a few resistance groups trying to hold them accountable for 99% of people coming out of there broke and bitter. So I absolutely will not direct someone away, but I will say there's caution in the wind that would lead me to tell someone to dig around and find out concretely one way or the other if it's as scary as has been said for the past 5 years or so.
Take a look at Max the Mutt Animation School in Toronto.
If you are interested in a program that follows the old Warner bros- Disney guidelines for curriculum, has a strong drawing component and classical animation before computer animation, take a look at our website, www.maxthemutt.com. This is a top quality program, taught by industry professionals, and is very affordable.
Thanks for the compliment...I love the beach! Besides the world is becoming my classroom.
My opinion (based on 32 years experience and being the head of a terrific program in Ireland) and FIVE straight years of nominated/selected for Who's Who Among American Teachers... is that drawing needs to be part of the core curriculum and not left to elective status.
I used to see good students, good people reduced to tears when they realized that their artistic skills were not there. I loved teaching at SCAD but I knew that my penchant for drawing would implode the department...so I left. I just speak the truth.
ALL THE BEST SCHOOLS HAVE DRAWING AS AN INTREGAL PART OF THEIR PROGRAMS (not just the 2D and Layout classes but real drawing)
SCAD does not require a art portfolio - except to get scholarships.
They did require a portfolio to get into Gary Goldman's class...hmmm...why is that...I talk to Gary - he is doing amazing things - for this term - those students are very lucky.
This week, Glenn Vilppu will be teaching drawing at Ringling - as he has for the last few years.
Ringling even has an insrtuctor exchange with a school from the Northeast that specializes in drawing.
The Ringling program is smaller - but their ratio of folks working as animators at the highest levels is far, far, far greater.
LOOK at the work!!!
My sense of it is - that folks really, really need to look at programs and determine what they really NEED to get jobs. (I think I set a record for "reallys").
I'm starting Vancouver Film School's Classic Animation course on August 28th. Everything is taken care of but housing, and I'm working on that. Hopefully, in a year and a half, I'll be emplyable as a Professional Doodler!
Part of talent is its ability to be fostered. Since almost all the animation training out there outside the actual job or possibly apprenticeship/mentor programs is nearly identical (especially nowadays) I think the "all that matters is talent" banner is really just saying, all that makes the most substantial difference.
In another thread here someone just said bad attitude + ridiculous skills might not go as far as mediocre talent with a seriousness and a passion behind it...people are always saying that, all the time, so talent exclusively doesn't have a stranglehold. But it is the dependent variable.
I just have to flat-out disagree. Doesn't that seem ridiculous to say that "almost all the animation training out there outside the actual job or possibly apprenticeship/mentor programs is nearly identical"? How can you back that up? If that were true, then we wouldn't have this thread in the first place!
Different schools emphasize different things. Some schools have great teachers, some school have teachers that aren't quite so great. If you have talent but you go to a cruddy school, well you're definately not as likely to succeed in the job arena, isn't that right? And vice versa. Like I said, if all animation training was nearly IDENTICAL, well then why are some schools better than others? That's just a silly statement. SCAD and Ringling's animation training are not identical to one another. If they were, then this thread wouldn't be so heated.
1 Timothy 4:12 - "Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity."
I am looking at schools on the East coast. I have visited SCAD, Ringling, RIT,
and School of Visual Arts. There has been alot of talk about SCAD and Ringling. I liked them both and will apply.
RIT didn't impress me much...the tour was about 10 minutes and I didn't see
much enthusiasm among the students. SVA attracts outrageous characters,
some with real talent...others just with egos, but I can see myself there.
( OK,...I'm from NY ) If anyone has an opinion about these schools I would love to hear it!
Monday, I'm flying to visit Sheridan. Is this "THE SCHOOL" to aim for? (Honestly, the financial aid aspect will play a huge part in my decision.)
I would agree that people who want to do rigging, texture, lighting or modeling for 3D don't need classical animation background, although an understanding of animation and the needs of animators is essential.
However, if we are going to raise the general level of 3D animation, we might want to take some advice from Pixar and recognize that traditional fine art skills are very helpful, and probably essential.
One could learn about lighting from studying photography, but it's interesting how many great photographers actually had studied traditional drawing and painting. Concept design for 3D certainly demands deep traditional fine fine art training.
Modeling requires a comprehension of form, anatomy and movement. Studying life drawing, anatomy, and sculpting are indicated. The difference between the top end of 3D, and the vast amount of mediocre work that's out there drives this home.
Knowing when and when not to use detail would also raise the general level of 3D.
Most of these skills are developed through education, exposure to great art, and studying painting and drawing.
Can individuals get jobs doing texture, modeling or rigging without all this? I don't doubt it, but why not reach for the stars and aim to be the best you can be? What will set you apart and give you the capacity to take your art to the highest point you can? What will make you someone the top companies will value?
As educators shouldn't we be aiming to provide the best education possible?
Okay, I'll post in this thread again, despite my better judgement. First, Larry L listed the Vancouver Film School as among the best for animation on the continent. This may be true for computer animation, but I found the classical department to be in extremely bad shape. There were a few really good teachers, but the department is poorly run, and it's up to each teacher to decide how and if they want to teach their subject. The student to teacher ratio has also recently gone way up, and when I was there they weren't adjusting teaching methods to make up for it.
I have been told in no uncertain terms that if I go on bad-mouthing the school, it will have disastrous effects on my career. Right now, I'm working a crappy customer service job, and trying to fill in the blank spots left by VFS in my spare time, so here goes:
It is the job of the admissions department to assess your artistic ability. That's supposed to be the reason for a portfolio review. I was concerned about my own level of ability, as I'd never animated before. I was very specific about this, and asked the guy from admissions some very pointed questions. He told me what I wanted to hear.
Within the first month, we had two teachers tell us that the people who review our portfolios had no idea what they're looking at. One of them told me point blank that one of my classmates should never have been accepted into the program. I don't know what they told other students about me, but it makes one wonder. The admissions department at VFS is a form of camouflage-- like the covering of leaves you put over a bear trap. They want your money.
The teachers make their own assessments about who it's worth their time to teach. The worst in my experience at VFS was Peter. With myself and a few of other students he would spend ten minutes rolling his eyes and saying, "You're off model again." with other students, he'd take forty minutes to an hour, carefully explaining things, and sitting at their desks and drawing examples. The favoritism was far from subtle. I talked to a couple of students from other classes, and they had similar experiences with him-- one even said they got the same thing from another teacher who I found fairly helpful.
Repeated complaints to department heads got a few sympathetic nods, and absolutely nothing was done. There seemed to be a hell of a lot of tension between the board of directors and the actual instructors. There were always teachers coming back from meetings red in the face and obviously shaken. No one would say much, though.
The thing is, the animation teachers who actually work in studios are the bait in the trap. They definitely know their craft. Whether or not they actually do their jobs is entirely a subjective decision.
Unfortunately, this is true of most private schools. Short of getting a lawyer and taking them to court, you have no recourse. They do pretty much as they please, and most industry insiders will keep mum if schools are falling down. The teachers are friends and colleagues, and can get them jobs. ANd with more and more animation being outsourced, more animators are relying on teaching positions they aren't at all trained for. And the schools are relying on an unending suply of naive wanna-bes like myself. It's as simple as that.
I am forty years old, and had to move back home with my 79 yr old father due to the financial mess I'm in. I still love animation, but the industry is a complete mess, and more people will take advantage of you than not. People I thought of as friends at VFS no longer return e-mails. They recommend the more gifted students to studios to score points. If you're not among them, you basically cease to exist the second you leave. While I was there, I learned a little about the practice of animation, but I'm still learning the basics from books and experimentation. What I learned about mostly was the nature of the industry-- and most of it, I'd rather not know.
I know full well these posts will not help me to find work. But I don't want to see anyone else step into the bear trap I did just because of their love of animation. As I said above, there's a basic bag of tricks you need to learn, but that knowledge is worth maybe $1,000. From there on, you're on your own, no matter what anyone tells you.
How good are your representational fine art skills? Do you want to animate? Animation is a high skill, and even more is required now since on top of classical skills, computer has been added. Also, I wouldn't make choices based only on a magazine's list! Schools are living organisms- they change. The school is only as good as the curriculum, the instructors and the passion of the students. Your future will depend on you. Your portfolio, your demo reel and your interview, followed by your ability to come through. Professionalism is very important. Do you meet deadlines? Take criticism and direction? Ask for help when you need it? Are you a good team player? You will hear positive and negative things about many schools. Any program that says they give you everything in 2 years, in my view, is suspect. The jobs are there for those with the right skill sets- most grads don't have the skill sets. Look at the requirements listed by the companies you want to work for. Then look at the curriculum of the school you want to attend. Then check class size, who is instructing, and go to the year end show (if possible) or look at grad work on line. Ask if you can contact current students and graduates. Do your homework.
No decent company will hire you based on your degree or diploma, or what school you attended. Good work is done by companies who know enough to hire the people with the talent, skills, and passion no matter where they come from or how they got those skills.
PS Read Dr. Specter's comments on VFS on this thread!
[quote=cgurl09]Im a highschool student and I'm starting to look at colleges.
My deal is that Ive always been interested in film and was planning on a film major, but recently realized my love for animation (especially 3D like from pixar and dreamworks and anime produced by studio ghibli =] ).
So now my dilemna is finding a school that has both a good film and animation program, it seems the best schools mentioned for animation (like ringling) only specialize in animation.
Hi: I know that Ringling has just started a Digital Film (live action) major/ as well as a minor. It might be worth while to get a catalog....thanks
And let me, once again, second what Larry has said:
Drawing needs to be part of the core curriculum and not left to elective status.
Let every prospective student, every aspirant to the animation/cartoon/comicbook industry print the above statement out in the biggest boldest letters possible and place where they can see it frequently.
Anyone saying to you that a career in a CREATIVE capacity in this industry does not need drawing skills is LYING to you, or is grossly misinformed. Even if they are, or claim to be working in the industry, they are propagating a lie in telling you that drawing skills are unimportant.
As Larry said, any school that does not put extensive drawing curriculum at the core of its program is a waste of your time.
If you cannot, will not, or are afraid to develop good, solid drawing skills, then please........PLEASE for everyone's sake (and your own) do NOT choose this craft as a career path.
If you do not draw, or draw well, this is NOT the career for you.
In my own opinion: the better you draw before you get into school, the better most schools will serve you. If you are at the stage of almost being ready to get into the industry with your level of drawing ability, then the schools will be able to help you the most.
Very few schools can teach you how to draw, most of that education will come from your own self-exploration.
If you cannot tell if your own work is close to professional levels, either develop the critical eye, or abandon the goal.
I make that seemingly harsh statement because more than a few schools will patronize students because many private schools and programs are businesses first and "schools" a distant second. A "student's" ( or use the term customer) continued presence on a private school campus can be seen more as a continued income stream for that private school--and so the school will ( more often than not) patronize that student into believing they are doing better than they really are.
Sadly, a LOT of these schools are in the business of offering "false hopes" to their paying customers.
(yes, that'll piss off more than a few schools, I'm sure. But let's look at how many of the students they enroll actually make it into the industry? Those numbers are NEVER part of their marketing campaigns, are they? That's the bitter reality of the whole post-secondary schooling thing, and let's not pull any punches calling it what it really is.)
I'm not an opponent of animation schools at all--I spent about 10 years teaching at several different ones in Western Canada. I am, instead, a proponent of prospective students and talent understanding fully the demands and circumstances of what CAN be found at animation schools and in the industry.
Like Larry, I think the best most honest tact to take is to be stone-cold honest with people, and to insist that students/prospective talents meet the educational process " at least halfway".
Animation schools can, selectively, be a great boon to a prospective talent at the start of their career, but the more the student knows (in all respects) the better served they will be by these schools.
Forums, like this one, are full of queries from timid-sounding people, concerned about drawing.
The inescapable answer remains constant: Good drawing skills are essential.
You MUST have them.
You will have no lasting place in the industry without them.
Take the time to develop these skills--don't set a (impossible)time-line, just concentrate on getting really good at drawing ( the other skills will fall into place as you work at them too). Learn all you can, and delve into tangent studies ( comic strips, concept design, painting, sculpting, writing etc etc etc.)as you please--nothing is unimportant in this.
If you find its "taking too long"--look at things critically. If you cannot get expert assistance, or cannot overcome the obstacles......then abandon the goal as a career. Pursue it as a hobby instead.
(...and I know the above is diametrically opposed to my usual mantra of "persistence pays off". I still maintain that even now, but I also recognize that many people do not fully subscribe that ideal. The reality is that a great number of people DO in fact give up, and move on to rewarding careers in other fields. Is a painful truth that not everyone is cut out for this kind of work. That kind of person may well be one of you reading this)
—
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
I am looking at Academy of Art University to pursue animation. Are there are any AAU graduates here? And if you know anything about the curriculum, or how the direction of the 2d and 3d programs, I would appreciate any input.
I graduated from AAU back in 1999. Back then, they had a very strong Illustration department as well as a Computer Animation department. When I started in 1995 their Traditional Animation department was non-existent. That turned around about 1997 and they were developing a pretty solid traditional course by the time I left.
I'm not sure how the program is now. I hear it's good and has a strong Computer Animation department.
My suggestion, and this is for all art schools, is to talk to the talented upper classmen in your department who's work is the top. Find out which teachers they feel are really good. Take their classes whether they are tough, bitches or what ever. If they are good you will learn the most from them. So change your class schedual around so you can take the best classes with the best teachers. If you have to stay in school a few semesters longer, do it. It will be worth it.
Also take advantage of the free drawing, painting, and sculpture workshops. They have work shops almost every night.
AAU is an open enrollment school. So this means if your check clears, you're in the school. This is why you need to talk to your classmates to find what are the best classes with the best teachers. They will sever you better than your advisers. A good tip is if students complain that a certain teacher is hard or gives lots of homework. Odds are you want to take their class.
Good luck.
Aloha,
the Ape
—
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
If you want to be an animator or a concept artist don't sign up for any school that doesn't either offer a deep classical fine arts program and classical animation background as part of the diploma, or list these as prerequisites. Watch out for programs that are entirely computer based.
I absolutely agree with everything with said by Ken- on every point.
I have seen a ton of folks who depend on the computer (epecially) in a school situation and then they can't get jobs when they graduate.
Keep in mind if we are working some place we are only seeing the folks with jobs- not the ones who didn't make it.
If someone asks about skills- I mention drawing. Is that the only to get a job- no. But why not give them information that will help them progress.
By the way, DSB, I didn't curse- rarely do- I just left some blanks and YOU filled them in:D...you pounced! It could have been a compliment.
I have been around long enough to know there is no one way to make it in this business- just as the range of jobs has expanded so has the skill sets (plural).
Thanks.
At times, I know I sound dogmatic - But I am not- I am confident about what I feel folks need.
Larry
web site
http://tooninst[URL=http://tooninstitute.awn.com]itute.awn.com
[/URL]blog:
[U]http://www.awm.com/blogs/always-animated
[/U] email:
larry.lauria@gmail.com
I spent the last few hours reading this whole board, and it helped a lot. Personally I have wanted to be an animator all my life. My community college didn't offer any animation courses, so I got my associates in film studies. Unfortunately all my life my formal art training has been less than desirable. I was in AP art classes, but it was taught by a softball coach, so it was basically some guy saying "draw this" and then went back to schmooze with the cheerleaders. Unfortunately I have developed my talent solely on using references, and I'm not really good at life drawing which I feel limited me greatly. As far as reference I'm pretty good at duplicating art or photographs, but unfortunately not being able to free myself have really been hard on the self esteem. Most of my work is here:
http://mindseye90.deviantart.com/gallery/
But as I said it is referenced.
My question is after that long back story is; am I a lost cause or do I still have a shot at making it, and if so does anyone know any schools that pride themselves in teaching the needed foundations and produce a generally good artist? I've been looking at these schools mainly;
Rocky Mountain College of art and Design www.rmcad.edu
Academy of art University http://www.academyart.edu/
The University of Advancing Technology http://www.uat.edu/
And lastly
Otis College of Art and Design www.otis.edu
I got into Ringling as an illustrator, but they denied me into the animation program, got into all the above schools, and I guess I'm just hoping someone can point me into the right direction.
Thank you very much for any help you can provide!
Hi,
Anyone here from Sheridan or Seneca? I have applied to both of these for Computer Animation. Any opinions on which one has the better program?
thanks.
I don't understand this at all. Why would you look back. Ever forward.
I agree with the basic importance of drawing ability. But, as Chuck Jones has said, it's not about what the drawing looks like so much as what it's doing. It needs to exist within a sequence to be animation. And that leads into acting and, more importantly, storytelling.
The basic problem I see with most computer animation (including a lot of my own) are basic, storytelling issues. Even in a comic book panel, you have to be able to answer questions like, "What's the subject of this shot, and what's it doing?" at a glance. A lot of this has to do with the composition of the shot, itself. Classic animators want the camera to stay fixed on head-to-toe shots to showcase the character animation, when this is just weak cinematography. CG animators want to bounce the camera around like a crazy ball, when this is just distraction. Clarity must trump coolness.
Beyond that, you have to know what your real key frames are, and how long they should hold. You could even get more abstract and ask, "What's the character thinking at this point?" In a lot of ways, I like Clampett and Tashlin better, but Chuck Jones could make characters think abstractly better than anyone at Warner's. And that adds a special kind of suspense-- which is a key ingredient to solid, entertaining storytelling.
And yet, there are a hell of a lot of "industry pros" who don't bother with reading scripts. Unless there's a hook-up, they don't care what shot precedes or follows the one they're working on. In one year at animation school, I encountered more than a few prima donnas who didn't know the first thing about story-- which is the one thing I DO know. Every shot you work on is not the climax of the show or movie. As sacreligious as this seems to a lot of professional animators, telling the story well is always more important than your demo reel.
When the basics of animation were discovered, drawing was the most advanced technique out there. In most ways, it's still the most subtle and organic. But to the average person outside the industry, medium is very secondary, and should be. You can't draw things like line of action or solid structure without understanding them, but you can understand them without being able to draw them perfectly.
A combination of bad scripts and the ignorance of these basic rules are what's wrong with most animation today. And most of it's crap.
I'm hoping VFS's two year program will reduce the art school BS. I think of it as a trade school where I'm learning a specific craft, and meeting some cool people, with any luck. I hope it works out that way.
Hello,
I will like to hear from you directly to my email oris.joel@gmail.com.
I am very keen when it come to Animation and i have problem to know which country has the best of study when it come to studying Animation and the school in the country that can offer what i expected.
Have applied to one in my country and they promise all they can not offer and i later discovered that i have wasted the money.
The buttom line is i need the country that have schools that can offer me what i need to be a world class animator and other multimedia related program.
List the schools for me, plz.
Expecting your reply ASAP.
Hi. I just got out of high school and I've decided that I want to pursue an education in 2d/3d animation but to be quite honest, I don't want to go to school another four years. I recently found out about a few schools that offer a bachelors degree that can be obtained in about two years time (Expression College and Full Sail). Full Sail looks like the better choice to me.
Are these schools worth going to?
I just spoke to an animation director this week who has a very impressive resume (I haven't asked his permission so can't give his name) and he complained about the problems he's having with the younger animators (3D) coming his way who don't have enough classical drawing and animating background. He's very busy, but interested in teaching a course for us just because we are trying to give a deeper education than many schools, and because he believes the industry needs animators who have had experience doing it with a pencil first.
In speaking with other companies, I've been told that once in awhile someone does pop up who can animate very well without drawing background, but it's very, very rare.
Part of this debate has to do with quality, with art. It makes for a pretty dismal world when all that matters is turning something out as cheaply as possible and making a quick buck, versus creating something of value that
will last ( and coincidentally, over the long haul will be much more lucrative).
It also has to do with educating the next generation, and what our obligations are.
Finally, it impacts the world we live in. The quality of popular culture permeates our lives.
What about Shepherd University in Downtown Los Angeles?
http://www.shepherduniversity.edu/digitalarts/
They have BS/MS degree and tuition is $20,000 per term.
They said they have teachers from DreamWorks, Sony Pictures, and other famous companies.
My friend who took classes there got his job in Sony pictures. He said his latest project was Cloudy chance 2.
It seems like they are accepting Spring 2014 students. I hope this info helps.
If the tradeoff was the two extra years beyond those got you a better ot more supportive education, would it make a difference?
Hi All,
I am from india. I hve planned to do my Media arts and animations in the Art institute of toronto. This course covers both 2d animation and the 3d animation( 18 months course). I just want to know how is the art institute of toronto. I also saw college like seneca and humber, canada. so ppl please tell how to proceed with this? I am looking for colleges around toronto.
cheers,
Balaji
Better yet, I got some sleep. Thanks for the reassurance.
Anyway, I think I'd be doing myself a disservice heading back to Columbia College next year if I want to tackle this thing as seriously as I do. So, I'll try to somehow get into a good animation school not yet closed for the Fall semester. Unfortunately a lot of them are. So let get to specific questions instead of a general blur
I know the Art Institute is fairly painless and easy applying. I'm considering that as a step up - a bridge into Ringling, SCAD, CalArts, Sheridan, or one of the top schools. How is the Institute's animation department? Does anyone have any experience or heard any first hand opinions on it? I can't find any work on their website, which isn't a good sign.
Another question, do you know any top schools that are still accepting for the Fall semester - or have some schools been known to make exceptions at times? If not, can you somehow come in during the spring 2007 semester or is it all done on a yearly basis?
Basically, I'm looking for advice from you guys who seem very knowledgable, on what you'd do if you were in this pickle. Not yet a sophmore, but kind of closed out from sophmore applications, and searching to get into a school more serious than your previous bad decision as soon as possible. And again, thanks for the reassurance. I needed that. :)
I guess I view what's considered "creative" differently. I've always considered background painting a job done by an artist, and therefore a creative job. I've certainly never though of Eyvind Earle or Ty Wong as "peons." Modeling and rigging require tremendous amounts of creativity. There's nothing rote or repetitive - the hallmarks of "peon" jobs - involved in modeling a character that looks good and deforms well. And rigging requires a whole different type of creative thought in order to deliver a rig that is easy for an animator to use.
I've had many students come into my intro to 3D class absolutely convinced that they wanted to be animators, and left with a new career goal of modeling, rigging, or texturing. None of them seemed to think they were settling for a non-creative job, and they were, and are, correct.
Very true - just as we're not seeing those who have drawing skills who didn't make it, for whatever reason. Cuts both ways, my friend.
Sure, Larry - most people disguise compliments in a post - especially when they spend the rest of the post hurling passive-aggressive insults. But I guess I'm not surprised - It's just more of the same.
Personally, I graduated from Sonoma State University about 12 years ago, before I realized I wanted to draw--thus, a degree in English.
However, as a teacher I get to see presentations from a good many schools, including a terrific presentation last year from Expression. They appear to be pretty tied into the industry and have some terrific collaboration oriented projects. In fact, I have a couple of their promo CDs in my desk drawer that show some 2D, some 3D, as well as some sound design elements working together pretty strongly.
Looked like a solid program.
Cartoon Thunder
There's a little biker in all of us...
Lest all the newcomers fearfully believe the old-timers and experienced voices here are beating them all with a stick over this--the above points out a truism that offers everyone some hope.
Niche talent works for and against people.
There are people with a lot of years under their belts that fall into the category of having niche talent.
As stated above, there are people that get fixated on a specialty to the degree that they lose sight of that specialized aspect in light of the whole process.
This becomes a dogmatic thing, of sorts--because its really up to the individual to guide their own career to either avoid this trait or indulge in it.
Everyone is going to be different, and get different results.
For some folks, its works out just fine approaching things this way, for others the "dogma" dogs them detrimentally ( Oh, I love that pun...)
The key to this is even those ole dogs (another pun! Wooooo!) can be caught missing that one needed trick and a newcomer with a more expanded skill set can slide into a job the experienced talent might have taken.
That's actually happening a fair bit with computer skills these days.
You don't HAVE TO BE a specialist to make it(or last) in the biz.
I feel I understand story, the work that I have done for the past 15 years certainly suggests I know story, but I don't feel I've applied myself to anything more than a shallow exploration of story.
In my case I use a short-list of simple principles that, fortunately, have never failed me. I'm not the best draftsman around, I can draw my way of the ubiquitous damp paper sack but it can be a struggle somedays.
I can generate an idea fairly easily, but getting it down on paper can take effort. I can follow directions and I understand my place in the overall process. I have no ambitions with the work aside from getting the job done, and trying to bring some small thing from myself to it.
That has worked for about 20+ years now.
There's no reason something similar cannot work for anyone else.
The more you know, the more you can do.....the more you can offer--and the more offers that will come your way.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
The Art Institute has no portfolio requirement for admission - only the desire to learn and the cash to pay the tuition. It's a "accept all who apply" school, and their results are a mixed bag, as you'd expect from an art school that lets everyone (even those with no previous experience) in.
On the other hand, Will Vinton is the current artist in residence at the Portland school, and I don't think he'd risk his reputation on a school that's not good. I know a few people who are teaching or have taught at an AI campus, and they're good, solid artists. Like any school, you get out of it what you put into it.
I have to agree with DSB. I taught at AI Vancouver for almost two years--leaving in this past March.
That campus has some great instructors, but its programs are in a state of flux. They are still in tranisiton from the former CDIS ( Centre for Digital Imaging and Sound school) which AI bought out, and they haven't quite got their footing...yet. Still, the instructors have helped even out some of the rougher patches the programs have.
The students are a real mixed bag, as was said--because there are a LOT of students coming in with very weak art skills but very strong desire to do professional art.
What DSB also said about no expiration date on this stuff needs to be repeated over and over.
Time and again, I've seen students enter programs that were not prepared for what they encountered in the programs, in regards to their level of art skills.
The more development you make ON YOUR OWN, the more these schools can help you.
Its next to impossible to have a non-artist enter any of these schools and emerge a professional grade artist. Sorry, that just does not happen.
My advice is that if your skills are weak to mediocre to modest, to then hold off on getting into a animation school for about two years. In that meatime, to work on your drawing/art skills as much as possible.
Focus on the basic, forget about software skills--as they will cover those in the programs. Get as solid a foundation in drawing appealing commerical looking work as possible--and then jump into the schools.
The extra time you take will be better spent because the schools will help hone your basic abilities, and add the technical knowledge you need.
Think of it like military service--you need to come to it reasonably fit (artistically) in order to get the most out of the training.
There is no rush here, the industry will be around for decades yet----entertainment isn't going to go away.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Well, see Full Sail was recently in the top ten list of animation schools in North America so I assume the two year program there should be supportive enough.
What school would you suggest?
Are we talking about The School of the Art Institute of Chicago, or just the Art Institute chain? SARIC is one of the best art schools in the country, whereas the AI chain is more about your money than your education. SARIC, however, I think is more of a fine art school (meaning you'll probably be producing animations from rice or bottle caps) as far as I know. But I hear SARIC has a number of people who work at Pixar and other such animation places.
I just got accepted to Calarts (huzzah!), and that would top my list for best schools as well as Ringling, if you're more 3d oriented.
-moot
Thanks Ken. I am confident in my art skills. I'm not entirely where I want to be, but I'm well on my way there. I took high school art classes, and more so than that filled tons and tons of sketchbooks. I got a decent ammount of finished pieces I'm proud of - paintings, charcoal, drawings, etc. Won some awards for that. Right now I'm setting up summer life drawing classes 2-3 times a week, and am studying Preston Blair's book for cartoon structure. So I'd say I'm ready.
That said, I don't neccesarily want to take a year or two off, but I also don't want to keep going in my current school's animation program to quickly push through when the graduate's work is just not there at this school. I mean, obviously it's up to the individual to do good work, but I think the school holds some responsibility in the development of graduates. And their graduate work is just not good fundamentally at all.
You're advice really opens up other options for me. I could take a cheap community college for a year and fill out educational requirements while waiting until Fall 07's programs open up. In the meantime, setting up the lifedrawing classes for 2-3 days a week, year round. I could work, bank some money for campus life, and free up time by getting math, history, science, and the like out of the way in chunks before I really get into the animation. I could also spend a great ammount of time working on my portfolio to send in. I literally haven't thought of it before you just mentioned it. Though I know my work's good, it still makes sense taking the time off compared to learning 3 different art school's animation department and trying to jump school to school year by year.
Also, I wouldn't have to stop animating. I got a light table, acme pegs. I really want to find time to try out fundamental animation tests characters lifting weight, walks, the thinking character. I got friends in Columbia that I still hang out with, who I could go in with and pencil test my work.. Honestly, I think that's the front runner, as much as I desperately want to stay in an art school. And if my skills are not entirely there, they're certainly no more than a year off.. I don't want to give the impression this is an abrupt decision. I've been practicing a long time, and very hard - but a year of lifedrawing and daily drawing will only help.
Anyway, thank you for the advice. I'm not sure of my decision yet, but the option you opened up of slowing down and being entirely prepared for fall 2007 really changes things, and eases my mind.
Yes, it's the Art Institute of Chicago. Sorry if I gave anyone the wrong impression. It's definitely a reputable school, though I haven't heard very much about the school like I have of SCAD, Ringling, CalArts, etc. It's not got the problems of the other Art Institutes from what I heard.
Just be aware that when you apply for jobs you'll be competing with people who have developed fine art (traditional) skills, classical as well as computer animation and a broad based education in animation. Our fourth year students learn 3D computer animation with an emphasis on animating: they definitely find that the two years of classical animation, life drawing, anatomy as well as 2D computer animation are more than useful- they allow them to animate more quickly at a higher level. They have portfolios and demo reels that are getting them the jobs they want. You have your whole life ahead of you and you need to take your time and get a strong foundation. Try checking out web sites for major 3D companies. You'll hear exactly what I've just told you.
I'll second that. If you feel there's a place or need for traditional skills in your repertoire there's no replacement for them.
Hehe probably wanna go back through this entire thread and check what the consensus is.
While of course your talent matters, the institution you attend plays a HUGE part in your success: The ability of the faculty in honing your talents, placing you in a good work environment, and teaching you the skill set that you'll need to survive in the real world.
If "all that mattered" was your talent, well then you could attend a cheap community college and do just fine. Then we'd really have no reason to have great schools like Ringling or SCAD in the first place.
As far as California, I can't really help you out there! Sorry for ranting and then leaving you high and dry. How far are you from CalArts?
1 Timothy 4:12 - "Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity."
My opinion doesn't matter too much -- I've only been to one animation school in this country and think highly of it, but you're the one who has to go so it's going to depend on what you think.
I wasn't attacking Full Sail; I actually just meant that generally. For you to ask if it's worth it is moot if time is the priority, since four years will never be two years. You'll get a lot of advice on here that the student makes the experience, but there's something to be said about how the format aids the student's ability to maximize their own potential.
I'd ask what place they were on the list, or find out who made the list. SCAD says they're in the top three because it's vague enough to not say which place it is, to find they come in 3rd. That's a bit of common sense since if they were 2nd or 1st they'd come right out and say that, but the large schools that have a real focus on animation and have other classes (aka not the 2 or 3 industry guys who made their own small deal)...seems like there IS only 10 in the U.S.
Just keep a watchful eye out for the facts. Best of fortunes.
Hello.
The Art Academy in San Francisco is where the Pixar guys teach. Stay on the West coast- where you have Art Center, and Cal Arts, too.
Thanks.
Larry
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Hey Scruffy! I'm an MFA student at SCAD so I think I can answer some of your questions.... although it seems some really good advice about MFA vs. BFA has already been offered.
As for the differences between Anim and Vis FX. If you look at the examples of student work, you'll get a pretty good idea. Animation is nire character driven (or experimental if that's the way you want to go). They do teach us modeling, rigging, lighting, texturing.... but mostly we animate. We usually use Maya, pencil and paper... sometimes after effects. Vis FX are more technical. I don't completely get everything they do, but it seems to focus more on lighting, partical systems, compositing. They use Maya, but also Houdini, Renderman, etc. They do some great work over there. It would be very easy to take classes from both disciplines. I have a friend who double majored in undergrad and know some students who have tried both out before settling on a major. As MFA students we get 4 free electives and 2 that must be Film and Digital Media electives. So you could major in animation and take 6 FX classes if you wanted.
I would do the MA or MFA if I were you. I, too, majored in studio art in undergrad... though I also majored in film. Many of my fellow grad students were fine arts in undergrad. SCAD will assign you preliminary classes to get you caught up if they think you have what it takes to make it in the program but haven't had the appropriate foundation. The MA is usually seen as a more technical degree. Do that if you would like to improve you skills and get a job. The MFA is more for the creative side. Do the MFA if you would like to pursue your own creative endeavors, if you would like to teach at the college level or if it is important to you to receive a terminal degree. The MFA at SCAD also has more electives and more flexibility.
If you search these boards you can find images of what I included in my portfolio. Definitely not the end all of animation portfolios, but it got me in with an Artistic Honors Fellowship and only 2 preliminary courses (both in Maya which I had little interest in pursuing... but have since come to almost enjoy). Search for web portfolios for SCAD alumni to get good ideas also. I found cupojo.net through this forum. She has good work and a lot of really great links to her classmates. A lot of Calarts students have great web sites, too. Check out aimeemajor.com for her portfolio and links and also animatedbuzz.com.
Larry... you said that Ringling has more industry experienced professors. I'm wondering how much you still follow SCAD's faculty. I admittedly know little about Ringling's faculty. SCAD now has Troy Gustafson (Disney 2D effects animator), Michael Gargiulo ("Robots"/"Jimmy Neutron"), Brian Schindler ("Beowulf"), coming in the spring John Webber (Disney character Animator) and, of course, visiting artist Gary Goldman. Maybe I'm easily impressed, but I think we've got some great professors. I will admit that there are a few that maybe aren't the best. There is definitley a good mix of independant types and studio types. And they're trying to get more studio experienced professors, from what I've heard. It's a shame that Phil left us... and from what I hear the best prof SCAD ever had is out beach bumming on Tybee these days!;) I don't know much about Ringling, because they didn't have an appropriate program for me. It seems like a good school.... but I am very happy at SCAD. Fully recommend it. For anyone who is looking to learn from industry pros, though, I'd say animation mentor is probably where you'll find most of 'em.
Part of talent is its ability to be fostered. Since almost all the animation training out there outside the actual job or possibly apprenticeship/mentor programs is nearly identical (especially nowadays) I think the "all that matters is talent" banner is really just saying, all that makes the most substantial difference.
In another thread here someone just said bad attitude + ridiculous skills might not go as far as mediocre talent with a seriousness and a passion behind it...people are always saying that, all the time, so talent exclusively doesn't have a stranglehold. But it is the dependent variable.
I'm sorry if I came off as rude, I wasn't trying to lol. Umm, I belive they ranked in at number nine followed by Vancouver Film School at ten. ( 3D world magazine) I mean, it would be a wise choice to choose a school ranked in the top ten rather than choose one not even on there, right?
Oh and thanks for the comment :)
Hey everyone,
I've read through most of the thread, and have a question.
I am a senior in highschool at the moment and would like to go to school for animation. I primarily do clay animation, which you can see at me site www.mackproductions.net
I have won a few awards and been in a film festival festival and am proud of my work, but do not know much about computer animation. I have applied to SCAD, and am wondering if there are any schools you would recomend over SCAD that would be good for me?
Thank you
Clay Animations: www.mackproductions.net
Having seen student work from both VFS and Full Sail, I'm surprised that Full Sail ranks as the better of the two schools...
hey Larry, do you know Glenn Vilppu? That's cool! I've got several of his DVD's and a book. Would have loved to have sitten in on one of his classes. Do ya know if he ever guests at Calarts at all? I've emailed him a couple of times and spoken to his daughter recently but said he was abroad (think it was in Europe?).
Rich
________________________________Perpetual Motion________________________________
chaos, take it easy. Fiora was giving her opinion, from her experience and research. SCAD doesn't need defending.
Another couple of options in the bay area are De Anza College in Cupertino and Cosgwell in Sunnyvale. De Anza is a community college, so the fees are reasonable, and the program has produced two student Academy Award winners, as well as numerous award-winning films. Probably the most famous alum is Joe Murray, creator of Rocko's Modern Life and Camp Lazlo. Cogswell is a private school, so you may run into some of the cost issues you mentioned. I've worked with a couple of their graduates in the past, and they seemed to get a good education there.
S.F. State's program is very good, and growing. The only drawback I can think of is that it's only a 2-year program; the other 2 years are general ed stuff that most state colleges insist that you take (damn them!)
One negative thing about slowing down, and taking required educational classes at a community college, while taking a year out of art college.. Wouldn't you essentially still have to go to the art college for 3 years worth(animation class by animation class, step by step), in turn upping your overall college pay by whatever the community college costs? Cause I know 12 and 18 hours both cost the same where I go now, and you'd simply be saving yourself a bit of workload. Skipping a year makes more sense, but I've never taken a year off of school altogether. I would need to establish a real discipline not to become a bum. I'm so confused about all this. I want to have a good talk with the parents about it but they don't know much and it's a little frustrating..
Also, does CalArts have any CG animation? Or is it traditionally focused? If so, where do they get jobs at specifically with a traditional focus? I'd be willing to go either traditional or CG for the right job. Obviously you're bound to dabble in both, but whatever gets the better jobs/work would be ideal. Sorry for all the questions but this is really the best place I know to ask.
It depends on your situation. If I was in southern California I'd be checking out a lot of those smaller ones that sprang up around the small groups of hugely experienced people. Me personally, I went to a conventional school (actually state school + community college + private college) for a fine arts degree and then went to a school online (not counted in rankings because it's online and has only animation classes) because it satisfied both goals and was orders of magnitude cheaper.
Semester at Edinboro University of Pennsylvania = 6 grand
Two years of community college to finish my Associates = 5 grand
Third year at the private college bringing me to 98 credits = 10 grand
Animation Mentor = 13,100
(Those were all the costs at the time they were paid for)
So I paid...34,100? And while I still have a little over a term to go thanks to transfering credits, I'm tying up the BA (widening my skillset in the process with traditional art classes at a high level of criticism and peer talent) and I've already graduated from a productive and enriching 18-month animation program with friends, contacts, and a clear demonstrable idea of how to animate in more than one medium.
That's me though. Since I started going away to school before AM, I got a taste of what that was like and I knew I wanted to continue that as a half-way version of living on my own, testing my maturity. I also like the rounded of the liberal arts courses I've taken and staying conditioned with my studios.
Choices =)
If you're curious, no, I don't presently hold a favorable view of Full Sail, but it's also not a directly provable view. From secondhand info from people I know that've gone there, or a few that friends have worked with...it doesn't seem like good preparation. It seems like they're taking advantage of the interest in the field without full support or interaction. There have been quite a few resistance groups trying to hold them accountable for 99% of people coming out of there broke and bitter. So I absolutely will not direct someone away, but I will say there's caution in the wind that would lead me to tell someone to dig around and find out concretely one way or the other if it's as scary as has been said for the past 5 years or so.
If you are interested in a program that follows the old Warner bros- Disney guidelines for curriculum, has a strong drawing component and classical animation before computer animation, take a look at our website, www.maxthemutt.com. This is a top quality program, taught by industry professionals, and is very affordable.
Thanks for the compliment...I love the beach! Besides the world is becoming my classroom.
My opinion (based on 32 years experience and being the head of a terrific program in Ireland) and FIVE straight years of nominated/selected for Who's Who Among American Teachers... is that drawing needs to be part of the core curriculum and not left to elective status.
I used to see good students, good people reduced to tears when they realized that their artistic skills were not there. I loved teaching at SCAD but I knew that my penchant for drawing would implode the department...so I left. I just speak the truth.
ALL THE BEST SCHOOLS HAVE DRAWING AS AN INTREGAL PART OF THEIR PROGRAMS (not just the 2D and Layout classes but real drawing)
SCAD does not require a art portfolio - except to get scholarships.
They did require a portfolio to get into Gary Goldman's class...hmmm...why is that...I talk to Gary - he is doing amazing things - for this term - those students are very lucky.
This week, Glenn Vilppu will be teaching drawing at Ringling - as he has for the last few years.
Ringling even has an insrtuctor exchange with a school from the Northeast that specializes in drawing.
The Ringling program is smaller - but their ratio of folks working as animators at the highest levels is far, far, far greater.
LOOK at the work!!!
My sense of it is - that folks really, really need to look at programs and determine what they really NEED to get jobs. (I think I set a record for "reallys").
It's your money!
Larry
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I'm starting Vancouver Film School's Classic Animation course on August 28th. Everything is taken care of but housing, and I'm working on that. Hopefully, in a year and a half, I'll be emplyable as a Professional Doodler!
Glenn is back from Europe!
Yes, we are friends- he is an amazing person and artist.
Don't know his teaching current schedule. Years ago, he was head of the CalArts program.
Larry
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I just have to flat-out disagree. Doesn't that seem ridiculous to say that "almost all the animation training out there outside the actual job or possibly apprenticeship/mentor programs is nearly identical"? How can you back that up? If that were true, then we wouldn't have this thread in the first place!
Different schools emphasize different things. Some schools have great teachers, some school have teachers that aren't quite so great. If you have talent but you go to a cruddy school, well you're definately not as likely to succeed in the job arena, isn't that right? And vice versa. Like I said, if all animation training was nearly IDENTICAL, well then why are some schools better than others? That's just a silly statement. SCAD and Ringling's animation training are not identical to one another. If they were, then this thread wouldn't be so heated.
1 Timothy 4:12 - "Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity."
I am looking at schools on the East coast. I have visited SCAD, Ringling, RIT,
and School of Visual Arts. There has been alot of talk about SCAD and Ringling. I liked them both and will apply.
RIT didn't impress me much...the tour was about 10 minutes and I didn't see
much enthusiasm among the students. SVA attracts outrageous characters,
some with real talent...others just with egos, but I can see myself there.
( OK,...I'm from NY ) If anyone has an opinion about these schools I would love to hear it!
Monday, I'm flying to visit Sheridan. Is this "THE SCHOOL" to aim for? (Honestly, the financial aid aspect will play a huge part in my decision.)
Thanks,
Nat
I would agree that people who want to do rigging, texture, lighting or modeling for 3D don't need classical animation background, although an understanding of animation and the needs of animators is essential.
However, if we are going to raise the general level of 3D animation, we might want to take some advice from Pixar and recognize that traditional fine art skills are very helpful, and probably essential.
One could learn about lighting from studying photography, but it's interesting how many great photographers actually had studied traditional drawing and painting. Concept design for 3D certainly demands deep traditional fine fine art training.
Modeling requires a comprehension of form, anatomy and movement. Studying life drawing, anatomy, and sculpting are indicated. The difference between the top end of 3D, and the vast amount of mediocre work that's out there drives this home.
Knowing when and when not to use detail would also raise the general level of 3D.
Most of these skills are developed through education, exposure to great art, and studying painting and drawing.
Can individuals get jobs doing texture, modeling or rigging without all this? I don't doubt it, but why not reach for the stars and aim to be the best you can be? What will set you apart and give you the capacity to take your art to the highest point you can? What will make you someone the top companies will value?
As educators shouldn't we be aiming to provide the best education possible?
You're right, training was a bad word to use, and I actually didn't intend to use it.
What I meant was animation "information." Training would be separate from that; how the actual information was presented.
That's the difference, and that's what's running this thread. My apologies.
Okay, I'll post in this thread again, despite my better judgement. First, Larry L listed the Vancouver Film School as among the best for animation on the continent. This may be true for computer animation, but I found the classical department to be in extremely bad shape. There were a few really good teachers, but the department is poorly run, and it's up to each teacher to decide how and if they want to teach their subject. The student to teacher ratio has also recently gone way up, and when I was there they weren't adjusting teaching methods to make up for it.
I have been told in no uncertain terms that if I go on bad-mouthing the school, it will have disastrous effects on my career. Right now, I'm working a crappy customer service job, and trying to fill in the blank spots left by VFS in my spare time, so here goes:
It is the job of the admissions department to assess your artistic ability. That's supposed to be the reason for a portfolio review. I was concerned about my own level of ability, as I'd never animated before. I was very specific about this, and asked the guy from admissions some very pointed questions. He told me what I wanted to hear.
Within the first month, we had two teachers tell us that the people who review our portfolios had no idea what they're looking at. One of them told me point blank that one of my classmates should never have been accepted into the program. I don't know what they told other students about me, but it makes one wonder. The admissions department at VFS is a form of camouflage-- like the covering of leaves you put over a bear trap. They want your money.
The teachers make their own assessments about who it's worth their time to teach. The worst in my experience at VFS was Peter. With myself and a few of other students he would spend ten minutes rolling his eyes and saying, "You're off model again." with other students, he'd take forty minutes to an hour, carefully explaining things, and sitting at their desks and drawing examples. The favoritism was far from subtle. I talked to a couple of students from other classes, and they had similar experiences with him-- one even said they got the same thing from another teacher who I found fairly helpful.
Repeated complaints to department heads got a few sympathetic nods, and absolutely nothing was done. There seemed to be a hell of a lot of tension between the board of directors and the actual instructors. There were always teachers coming back from meetings red in the face and obviously shaken. No one would say much, though.
The thing is, the animation teachers who actually work in studios are the bait in the trap. They definitely know their craft. Whether or not they actually do their jobs is entirely a subjective decision.
Unfortunately, this is true of most private schools. Short of getting a lawyer and taking them to court, you have no recourse. They do pretty much as they please, and most industry insiders will keep mum if schools are falling down. The teachers are friends and colleagues, and can get them jobs. ANd with more and more animation being outsourced, more animators are relying on teaching positions they aren't at all trained for. And the schools are relying on an unending suply of naive wanna-bes like myself. It's as simple as that.
I am forty years old, and had to move back home with my 79 yr old father due to the financial mess I'm in. I still love animation, but the industry is a complete mess, and more people will take advantage of you than not. People I thought of as friends at VFS no longer return e-mails. They recommend the more gifted students to studios to score points. If you're not among them, you basically cease to exist the second you leave. While I was there, I learned a little about the practice of animation, but I'm still learning the basics from books and experimentation. What I learned about mostly was the nature of the industry-- and most of it, I'd rather not know.
I know full well these posts will not help me to find work. But I don't want to see anyone else step into the bear trap I did just because of their love of animation. As I said above, there's a basic bag of tricks you need to learn, but that knowledge is worth maybe $1,000. From there on, you're on your own, no matter what anyone tells you.
How good are your representational fine art skills? Do you want to animate? Animation is a high skill, and even more is required now since on top of classical skills, computer has been added. Also, I wouldn't make choices based only on a magazine's list! Schools are living organisms- they change. The school is only as good as the curriculum, the instructors and the passion of the students. Your future will depend on you. Your portfolio, your demo reel and your interview, followed by your ability to come through. Professionalism is very important. Do you meet deadlines? Take criticism and direction? Ask for help when you need it? Are you a good team player? You will hear positive and negative things about many schools. Any program that says they give you everything in 2 years, in my view, is suspect. The jobs are there for those with the right skill sets- most grads don't have the skill sets. Look at the requirements listed by the companies you want to work for. Then look at the curriculum of the school you want to attend. Then check class size, who is instructing, and go to the year end show (if possible) or look at grad work on line. Ask if you can contact current students and graduates. Do your homework.
No decent company will hire you based on your degree or diploma, or what school you attended. Good work is done by companies who know enough to hire the people with the talent, skills, and passion no matter where they come from or how they got those skills.
PS Read Dr. Specter's comments on VFS on this thread!
[quote=cgurl09]Im a highschool student and I'm starting to look at colleges.
My deal is that Ive always been interested in film and was planning on a film major, but recently realized my love for animation (especially 3D like from pixar and dreamworks and anime produced by studio ghibli =] ).
So now my dilemna is finding a school that has both a good film and animation program, it seems the best schools mentioned for animation (like ringling) only specialize in animation.
Hi: I know that Ringling has just started a Digital Film (live action) major/ as well as a minor. It might be worth while to get a catalog....thanks
And let me, once again, second what Larry has said:
Drawing needs to be part of the core curriculum and not left to elective status.
Let every prospective student, every aspirant to the animation/cartoon/comicbook industry print the above statement out in the biggest boldest letters possible and place where they can see it frequently.
Anyone saying to you that a career in a CREATIVE capacity in this industry does not need drawing skills is LYING to you, or is grossly misinformed. Even if they are, or claim to be working in the industry, they are propagating a lie in telling you that drawing skills are unimportant.
As Larry said, any school that does not put extensive drawing curriculum at the core of its program is a waste of your time.
If you cannot, will not, or are afraid to develop good, solid drawing skills, then please........PLEASE for everyone's sake (and your own) do NOT choose this craft as a career path.
If you do not draw, or draw well, this is NOT the career for you.
In my own opinion: the better you draw before you get into school, the better most schools will serve you. If you are at the stage of almost being ready to get into the industry with your level of drawing ability, then the schools will be able to help you the most.
Very few schools can teach you how to draw, most of that education will come from your own self-exploration.
If you cannot tell if your own work is close to professional levels, either develop the critical eye, or abandon the goal.
I make that seemingly harsh statement because more than a few schools will patronize students because many private schools and programs are businesses first and "schools" a distant second. A "student's" ( or use the term customer) continued presence on a private school campus can be seen more as a continued income stream for that private school--and so the school will ( more often than not) patronize that student into believing they are doing better than they really are.
Sadly, a LOT of these schools are in the business of offering "false hopes" to their paying customers.
(yes, that'll piss off more than a few schools, I'm sure. But let's look at how many of the students they enroll actually make it into the industry? Those numbers are NEVER part of their marketing campaigns, are they? That's the bitter reality of the whole post-secondary schooling thing, and let's not pull any punches calling it what it really is.)
I'm not an opponent of animation schools at all--I spent about 10 years teaching at several different ones in Western Canada. I am, instead, a proponent of prospective students and talent understanding fully the demands and circumstances of what CAN be found at animation schools and in the industry.
Like Larry, I think the best most honest tact to take is to be stone-cold honest with people, and to insist that students/prospective talents meet the educational process " at least halfway".
Animation schools can, selectively, be a great boon to a prospective talent at the start of their career, but the more the student knows (in all respects) the better served they will be by these schools.
Forums, like this one, are full of queries from timid-sounding people, concerned about drawing.
The inescapable answer remains constant: Good drawing skills are essential.
You MUST have them.
You will have no lasting place in the industry without them.
Take the time to develop these skills--don't set a (impossible)time-line, just concentrate on getting really good at drawing ( the other skills will fall into place as you work at them too). Learn all you can, and delve into tangent studies ( comic strips, concept design, painting, sculpting, writing etc etc etc.)as you please--nothing is unimportant in this.
If you find its "taking too long"--look at things critically. If you cannot get expert assistance, or cannot overcome the obstacles......then abandon the goal as a career. Pursue it as a hobby instead.
(...and I know the above is diametrically opposed to my usual mantra of "persistence pays off". I still maintain that even now, but I also recognize that many people do not fully subscribe that ideal. The reality is that a great number of people DO in fact give up, and move on to rewarding careers in other fields. Is a painful truth that not everyone is cut out for this kind of work. That kind of person may well be one of you reading this)
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
I graduated from AAU back in 1999. Back then, they had a very strong Illustration department as well as a Computer Animation department. When I started in 1995 their Traditional Animation department was non-existent. That turned around about 1997 and they were developing a pretty solid traditional course by the time I left.
I'm not sure how the program is now. I hear it's good and has a strong Computer Animation department.
My suggestion, and this is for all art schools, is to talk to the talented upper classmen in your department who's work is the top. Find out which teachers they feel are really good. Take their classes whether they are tough, bitches or what ever. If they are good you will learn the most from them. So change your class schedual around so you can take the best classes with the best teachers. If you have to stay in school a few semesters longer, do it. It will be worth it.
Also take advantage of the free drawing, painting, and sculpture workshops. They have work shops almost every night.
AAU is an open enrollment school. So this means if your check clears, you're in the school. This is why you need to talk to your classmates to find what are the best classes with the best teachers. They will sever you better than your advisers. A good tip is if students complain that a certain teacher is hard or gives lots of homework. Odds are you want to take their class.
Good luck.
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
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